Science, not politics must decide fate of safe injection site

9mmCensor said:
If Bob the addict has 10 dollars, and thats how much a bag of dope costs, hes gonna buy the dope, and not say "oh I better go find another 2 dollars so I can buy needles too" nor is he gonna say "oh not enough money for needles and dope, I will just wait till tommorow".

addiction is desperation for that fix. old dirty, shared needles are usable when your hurting enough for the drug you need.

its not that people aren't smart enough, its that they are desperate, addiction controls them.

I will give you the point that getting rid of dirty needles that could potentially hurt others is a good thing.

Spending my money to make sure some guy who couldn't be bothered to buy clean needles doesn't get sick I do not agree with at all.
 
Broshious said:
If they spend every penny on heroin, but are not smart enough to save a little for needles, why should I be buying them needles?

Because it might save you or someone you know from getting HIV or hepatitis someday?
 
CafeContin said:
Because it might save you or someone you know from getting HIV or hepatitis someday?

I'd think the risk of getting HIV or hepatitis would be quite low unless they had unprotected sex. Also, I'm not saying people who think they should get their needles shouldn't donate to charity or some such. I'd just rather I wasn't forced to do so as well.
 
Dude if you've never been an iv drug user then you really don't understand. Its about compassion and keeping people from spreading HIV and hepatitus.
Yeah needles are cheap and you can buy them almost anywhere in my state, IL, their like $2.51 for 10, but for people without like extra two-fity after buying a dime or two of smack, needle exchanges are a lifesaver. They run needle exchanges in chicago but I'm too lazy to go there and would rather pay the two-fifty for 10 spikes, plus the cops sometimes tail people from those kinda things cause their either carrying or about to score.

Also the people with the needle exchange went around a 100 yard area of Humboldt park in chicago in 95 before the needle exchange opened and found something like 300 syringes. A year after it opened they did it again and found like 35 or something. It's really depressing to think of some poor kid picking up a hype and sticking themselves or a friend and getting aids or hep cause some douche was too stingy to pay an extra, like what a dollar or even less??

Either way you come off as callous with your comments on this stuff you don't even know or really think about.

As far as I'm concerned they should hand out free smack too, the cost of the smack to the gov would totally be offset by the reduction in people in jails for possesion or sale, hardly no one would od with standerdized doses, and the rates of petty theft and robberies would drop significatly. All these things happened in The Netherlands when they had their free heroin expierment.
 
GlassAss420 said:
Dude if you've never been an iv drug user then you really don't understand. Its about compassion and keeping people from spreading HIV and hepatitus.
Yeah needles are cheap and you can buy them almost anywhere in my state, IL, their like $2.51 for 10, but for people without like extra two-fity after buying a dime or two of smack, needle exchanges are a lifesaver. They run needle exchanges in chicago but I'm too lazy to go there and would rather pay the two-fifty for 10 spikes, plus the cops sometimes tail people from those kinda things cause their either carrying or about to score.

Also the people with the needle exchange went around a 100 yard area of Humboldt park in chicago in 95 before the needle exchange opened and found something like 300 syringes. A year after it opened they did it again and found like 35 or something. It's really depressing to think of some poor kid picking up a hype and sticking themselves or a friend and getting aids or hep cause some douche was too stingy to pay an extra, like what a dollar or even less??

Either way you come off as callous with your comments on this stuff you don't even know or really think about.

As far as I'm concerned they should hand out free smack too, the cost of the smack to the gov would totally be offset by the reduction in people in jails for possesion or sale, hardly no one would od with standerdized doses, and the rates of petty theft and robberies would drop significatly. All these things happened in The Netherlands when they had their free heroin expierment.

You say THEY should hand out free smack. If you think it's such an important thing to why aren't you buying drugs and needles for these people that are in such bad shape? Why do you want other people to do it for you?
 
Errr Broshious... you do know it's a proven fact that it costs the taxpayer more money to provide medical care for IV related diseases and damage due to dirty/used syringes then it does to provide a needle exchange program.

Why the hell do you think they do it? To be kind? No, it's the proper financial decision.
 
Chubba75 said:
Errr Broshious... you do know it's a proven fact that it costs the taxpayer more money to provide medical care for IV related diseases and damage due to dirty/used syringes then it does to provide a needle exchange program.

Why the hell do you think they do it? To be kind? No, it's the proper financial decision.

If you want to argue from that position then I think you do have a point. Although I disagree about providing medical for others at my expense as well. My main problem was with the other posters' reasons for having a needle exhange program.
 
Broshious said:
If you want to argue from that position then I think you do have a point. Although I disagree about providing medical for others at my expense as well. My main problem was with the other posters' reasons for having a needle exhange program.

What country are you in? The taxes you pay goes to funding hospitals and the health care system, thus anyone sick could be treated at everyone's expense.. not just yours..

Needle exchanges are a great way to keep HIV/Hep c from spreading as quickly as it would without such a program.. also having them keeps the used and dirty ones off the street where you could be walking.. its all bout harm reduction, not just for the addicts but for everyone
 
Swerz said:
What country are you in? The taxes you pay goes to funding hospitals and the health care system, thus anyone sick could be treated at everyone's expense.. not just yours..

Needle exchanges are a great way to keep HIV/Hep c from spreading as quickly as it would without such a program.. also having them keeps the used and dirty ones off the street where you could be walking.. its all bout harm reduction, not just for the addicts but for everyone

I've already said that I accept the argument of keeping dirty needles away from non-users who might get hurt by them.

I live in the US. I think hospitals shouldn't treat people who can't pay for it.
 
Broshious said:
I've already said that I accept the argument of keeping dirty needles away from non-users who might get hurt by them.

I live in the US. I think hospitals shouldn't treat people who can't pay for it.


oops lol sry i missed that part..

So you believe in the pay-for-service system? So you're saying. poor people should die over something that could be easily treated with the proper medical attention?
 
Broshious said:
I think hospitals shouldn't treat people who can't pay for it.
Sorry Timmy, your Dad doesn't have the money to pay us to heal you so you can go bleed to death on the street.
 
Swerz said:
oops lol sry i missed that part..

So you believe in the pay-for-service system? So you're saying. poor people should die over something that could be easily treated with the proper medical attention?

You seem to think they shouldn't. Am I correct in this? Then why don't you pay for their easy treatment?

9mmCensor said:
Sorry Timmy, your Dad doesn't have the money to pay us to heal you so you can go bleed to death on the street.

Again you seem to think Timmy should get healed so what is stopping you from giving your money to pay for his treatment?
 
Broshious said:
Again you seem to think Timmy should get healed so what is stopping you from giving your money to pay for his treatment?
Because I was Timmy(literally my mom still has a home she owns, because I received hundreds of thousands of dollars of free health care, when we were not particularly affluent), because I may be Timmy again, because I do pay for Timmy to get healed when I pay my taxes.

Everyone has a right to life. Not just those that can afford it.
 
9mmCensor said:
Because I was Timmy(literally my mom still has a home she owns, because I received hundreds of thousands of dollars of free health care, when we were not particularly affluent), because I may be Timmy again, because I do pay for Timmy to get healed when I pay my taxes.

Everyone has a right to life. Not just those that can afford it.

You have a right to live. You do not have a right to demand I help you live. You would make all of the working people slaves of those who do not work. What makes you think you can demand my time? I ask nothing of you.
 
Chubba75 said:
I'm leaving this argument now.

This isn't even about needle exchanges anymore, you're just a miserable human being with no sense of empathy.

I would argue that the exact opposite is true. I never said I would never give anyone money. All I am asking is for you to empathize with me and see that telling me to give these people money against my will is wrong. How is forcing someone to do something they don't want to do empathetic at all? Yes, I understand you feel bad for these people and want to help them. As I have said feel free to do so, and I will too if I run across someone that I care about. Yes it's strange only giving things to people that have value to you isn't it? I can not understand this crazy obsession with wanting to make everyone else do want you want them to do because you think it's right. I am advocating freedom. You are advocating taking away my freedom in the name of a good cause.

9mmCensor said:
Because I was Timmy(literally my mom still has a home she owns, because I received hundreds of thousands of dollars of free health care, when we were not particularly affluent), because I may be Timmy again, because I do pay for Timmy to get healed when I pay my taxes.

Health care is not free. I know it feels good to call it that because then it seems so wonderful, but it had to be paid for. Let me ask you this, would you be willing to go around to people's homes and steal hundreds of thousands of dollars from them because "Timmy" was sick and needed treatment? Or would you ASK them for help, and if they said no you wouldn't demand the money from them? I ask this because that is exactly what happens. You're just a step removed from it because the government does the stealing for you so you don't need to think about what it is that's really happening.
 
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Broshious said:
I've already said that I accept the argument of keeping dirty needles away from non-users who might get hurt by them.

I live in the US. I think hospitals shouldn't treat people who can't pay for it.

I live in canada and i had absolutely no problem with my money going towards taxes to pay for health care for poor bastards who could not afford it. I also had no problem accepting this free health care. This was before i got too sick to work.

If it wasn't for free health care i would be dead as simple as that. Many others would be too because not everyone is born with a fucking silver spoon in their mouth. Most working class people would go broke here trying to pay off their hospital bills thus the system works.

This is not to say our system is perfect. Far from it in fact because the goddamn liberals gutted the health care system even though we had a huge surplus. Not to mention that the system is poorly organized thus money is wasted. But it's still better then going flat broke for paying for your own health care. Atleast i know that if i get sick i won't spend the rest of my goddamn life paying off hospital bills or worse yet getting refused service entirely and probley dying as a result of it.

Im sure if you ever got really sick and got refused health care because you happened to be broke at the time you would be wishing that you had some free health care. So if you don't believe in free health care don't start complaining sometime when your turned away from a hospital because you don't have the money to pay for your health care.

I also strongly believe in the free needle program because it will cut down on health care costs thus saving the system alot of money. A bag of needles is alot cheaper then treating a dying AIDS patient.

I do think we should also give out drugs but have the users pay for the stuff. Pharmacy prices are alot cheaper then dealer prices. Heroin bought from a pharmacy would have be alot cheaper then heroin bought off some dealer on the street. You would also know exactly how strong the dope is thus there would be a hell of alot less overdoses and deaths due to people not knowing how strong it is.
 
paranoid android said:
I live in canada and i had absolutely no problem with my money going towards taxes to pay for health care for poor bastards who could not afford it. I also had no problem accepting this free health care. This was before i got too sick to work.

If it wasn't for free health care i would be dead as simple as that. Many others would be too because not everyone is born with a fucking silver spoon in their mouth. Most working class people would go broke here trying to pay off their hospital bills thus the system works.

This is not to say our system is perfect. Far from it in fact because the goddamn liberals gutted the health care system even though we had a huge surplus. Not to mention that the system is poorly organized thus money is wasted. But it's still better then going flat broke for paying for your own health care. Atleast i know that if i get sick i won't spend the rest of my goddamn life paying off hospital bills or worse yet getting refused service entirely and probley dying as a result of it.

Im sure if you ever got really sick and got refused health care because you happened to be broke at the time you would be wishing that you had some free health care. So if you don't believe in free health care don't start complaining sometime when your turned away from a hospital because you don't have the money to pay for your health care.

I also strongly believe in the free needle program because it will cut down on health care costs thus saving the system alot of money. A bag of needles is alot cheaper then treating a dying AIDS patient.

I do think we should also give out drugs but have the users pay for the stuff. Pharmacy prices are alot cheaper then dealer prices. Heroin bought from a pharmacy would have be alot cheaper then heroin bought off some dealer on the street. You would also know exactly how strong the dope is thus there would be a hell of alot less overdoses and deaths due to people not knowing how strong it is.

I certainly would not complain about not receiving "free" health care as I have already stated that I believe it to be immoral. Being born does not give you some innate right to demand other people help you survive. If I CHOOSE to help you I will, but I cannot ever understand in the SLIGHTEST how anyone can tell me what to do with my own money. I certainly would never tell you how you MUST spend yours.

All I've ever heard in support of "free" health care are emotional appeals without really thinking about what is being said. Sure it'd be wonderful if health care were truly free and the money came from Good Health Fairy, but it doesn't no matter how hard you may try to make it sound that way.

I'm sure this will get people even more angry at me, but the idea that other have a claim on what you've earned is the idea behind communism. It always sounds great. Free everything for everyone, but nothing has ever been or ever will be free. This is entirely ignoring the fact that these kinds of things ignore some fundamental economic laws, and will NEVER work as people wish they would.

As far as a bag of needles being cheaper than AIDS...what ever happened to personal responsibility? If a guy chooses to use a dirty needle and gets AIDS then he has to suffer the consequences of his actions. Giving drug users free needles demeans everyone. It demeans me by saying I need to value this drug user who can't be bothered to buy needles as much as more responsible person, and it demeans the drug user by telling him he can't be responsible for his own actions.

As far as giving out drugs but having users pay for them...that sounds like drug legalization to me, and I believe most people here, including myself, are all for ending all victimless crimes.
 
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Lets bring the conversation back on topic. If you want to continue debating wider socialized health care, do it in Current Events and Politics.
 
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