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Salvia & DMSO chem question?

A

ali_dan

Greenlighter
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
6
(I posted this in the PD forum a few days ago and got no responses, and was wondering if there would be more interest here. Apologies for posting again... maybe this is just not interesting to others or has been posted in places I haven't found yet?)

I know there have been some discussions of this in the past, but I was wondering if any folks had more details about their various preparations for a sublingual solution of Salvia and/or Salvinorin-A using DMSO?

I read some posts from a while back about a potent 50-50 solution using DMSO and ethanol, but I was wondering if people have tried using 100% pure DMSO? Also, have preparations been made by dissolving pure Salvinorin-A crystals into solution or by adding the DMSO/EtOH to some stage of the raw leaf extraction procedure to get a solution with all the chlorophyll and tannins etc.? I've also read that the other natural components such as the tannins may account for some mechanism of increased oral absorption, so perhaps this would be better than using pure Salvinorin-A?

Finally, I was wondering if anyone knew if the EtOH could be eliminated entirely or if there was some other benefit to mixing the two solvents? I saw a post from last December that used a 25X leaf with 70% DMSO to good effect, albeit quite unpalatable, and perhaps too strong for coherent spiritual experiences.

I grow my own plants and have used the quid method as well as Siebert's liquid extract, but would like to experiment with my own liquid extractions. I have a couple years of college chemistry experience and a modest o-chem glassware set but by no means consider myself a proficient chemist.

My main goal is to be able to make a homemade extract from the plants I have grown that will be useful for spiritual growth. I'm not really obsessed with maximum potency.

I've been searching the forum and elsewhere but found myself wanting more experimental details and experiences than I've been able to find.

Thanks a lot for any info!
 
The only argument that comes to my mind that speaks against pure DMSO is the toxicity of the compound. In low concentrations it's not that big problem but you're speaking about 100% DMSO. I would be skeptical...

As DMSO enhances transport of substances through skin and mucous membranes there should be no need for neither EtOH nor any tannins.

I hope, this helps for the start...
 
Thank you for the feedback.

However I'm not aware of DMSO being described as toxic per se.
It's certainly controversial whether or not you want to mess around with it, but some people actually ingest it on purpose as a therapy for certain diseases. (See http://www.dmso.org/ for example).

I believe that the size and chemistry of the compounds in solution also play a big role in absorption into the body. That is why I was wondering if the other compounds other than the pure Salvinorin-A would make a difference in carrying the active agent into the appropriate places in the body.

Hmmm, I guess I'll just have to experiment. I had a pretty decent-sized harvest of leaves over the weekend so maybe I'll just try a few different things out and post when I have something to report. :)
 
tried salvinorin-a in dmso a few years back , never got above a placebo effect.....
...but :

hpbcd : hydro-propyl-beta-cyclodextrin is most probably the better option then DMSO.

Cyclodextrin inclusion is a molecular phenomenon in which usually only one molecule of guest (salvinorin-a) interacts with the cavity of the cyclodextrin to become entrapped, unlike other encapsulation methods in which more than one molecule of guest is entrapped in the encapsulation matrix. In order to form a complex with HPBCD to form a stable assocication. A variety of non-covalent forces, such as van der Waal forces, hydrophobic interaction, dipole moment and other forces are responsible for formation of a stable complex.

In most cases, only one Molecule is included in the cavity of HPBCD. In the case of some low molecular weight guests, more than one molecule of guest might fit into the cavity. In the case of some high molecular weight molecules, more than one molecule of cyclodextrin might bind to the guest. Only a portion of the molecule must fit into the cavity to form a complex. As a result, a one-to-one molar ratio is not always achieved, especially with high or low molecular weight guests and some prelimiary complex formation and analysis is needed to determine relative amounts of cyclodextrin and guest to be added for complexation.

(rev: janssen 5 nov 2007)

short : hpbcd kinda encapsules the salvinorin-a molecule , the inside of the dhbcd is hydrophobic , but the outside of the molecule is hydrofilic , so this way it gets transported easier into the body.

Hydroxypropyl B-cyclodextrin is very soluble in water and is used to solubilize guest molecules (14). The guest associates with the cyclodextrin so that the hydrophobic portion of the guest interacts with the hydrophobic cavity of the cyclodextrin. This interaction is an equilibrium reaction.
 
Thank you very much for bringing cyclodextrins to my attention. This is very helpful information, both for the salvia and for other medicinal projects I am working on! :)
 
ex-amine said:
Cyclodextrin inclusion is a molecular phenomenon in which usually only one molecule of guest (salvinorin-a) interacts with the cavity of the cyclodextrin to become entrapped...
Click to expand...

I know that the beta-cyclodextrin can bind cholesterol and remove it from cultivated cells. This got more or less the same size like Salvinorin A. So, this should be really possible IMO. Do you know about useful applications (e.g. for delivery) of this phenomenom?
 
Sublingual DMSO. That just has to taste like ass. I mean, the shit smells bad enough, imagine how it tastes. But I think Jonathan Ott was crazy enough to try this once. Doesn't seem worth it for salvinorin, but then salvinorin has never affected me at any dose.
 
Does anyone know what the advantages of one type of cyclodextrin are for a delivery mechanism are over another?

In other words, why was the hydroxy-beta version recommended over the other types?

When looking into it, I found that there are quite a few different cyclodextrin molecules out there (and available for sale!).

Are there any good resources anyone is aware of for how to plan which types would be best for delivering what sorts of active agents?

(Oh, and for the above poster, I agree that the dmso/salvinorin combo would likely taste like strong ass!).
 
I remember to have heard that cyclodextrines can serve as some kind of carrier for drug delivery when the delivered itself is too lipophile. This increases bioavailability. They are also used as oxydation-& UV-protectors (by being "wrapped" around sensitive molecules) and they are used for prolonging the time of drug release.

About how to plan the right size for the right molecule: Energy-minimization calculations (computational "docking") was something I did in a seminar just some months ago. This can help to some extend by predicting cyclodextrin-host-complex stabilities.
 
I haven't tried using DMSO as a ROA for salvia, but I have attempted to use it with dmt (with no effects other than stinging and redness of the arm).

The stuff smells vile. It is bad enough messing with DMSO topically. Putting it in my mouth?? No way.
 
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