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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

Russell Brand: Addiction is an illness not a crime

^ depression can come out of that too though, would you say that's a disease? Maybe the word "disease" is not quite right - illness, then? Most mental health problems are incredibly multifactorial but I would absolutely argue that they are illnesses.

Not trying to be awkward and I know there are flaws in my argument but I am genuinely still interested in this :)
 
Pleasing reply, Ms Eff :)

It definitely doesn't start as a disease - and never for one moment feels like one - but I can kindasorta see how it could evolve into one. Possibly. Maybe. Perhaps.

On the symptoms bit, I disagree. Symptoms may be what you tell yer doc is wrong wiv ya but addiction (or drug use in general) definitely ain't in that category. When I say it's a symptom I mean more that it's a more or less inevitible result of certain underlying... stuff. A secondary result of a primary cause. Summat comes before the drugs ever start and the drugs only ever really become a genuine problem if that primary cause is in place. Cravings, withdrawal, continuation of drug use way beyond the point of pleasure and so on are tertiary symptoms, I'd say.
 
^ I see what you mean. I was going for the strict medical definition of "symptom" there but I like your ranking of primary, secondary and tertiary. To my mind though - heart disease is usually secondary to many things - eating unhealthily, diabetes, smoking, high blood pressure, but it is still a disease. If you go further back, eating habits and smoking (and diabetes which can be caused by eating habits) could have an array of primary causes - stressful life, how you grew up, other external influences..

Or take depression again - I think that it often arises when external influences, shitty life, traumatic event, stress, particular personality traits, whatever it is coincides with abnormal brain chemistry. Or maybe the external events cause the abnormal brain chemistry. That doesn't really matter in my eyes.. anyway, external factors are very important but it's still an illness. Hmmm though I suppose you certainly can have depression with no obvious external cause, where as addiction is unlikely to progress to, well, full blown addiction without the external factors being prominent.

I guess what clinches it for me in terms of disease is the fact that addiction causes actual changes in the brain which differentiate it from a non-addicted brain, and has an impairment to functioning that goes alongside it. That to me says disease/illness, whatever the primary cause (and I agree it is very multifactorial, and doesn't start as an illness at all, that def comes later). But you know what, I think actually we're all agreeing here, it's just a question of the words and we're using being a little different :)
 
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effie said:
^ depression can come out of that too though, would you say that's a disease? Maybe the word "disease" is not quite right - illness, then? Most mental health problems are incredibly multifactorial but I would absolutely argue that they are illnesses.

Not trying to be awkward and I know there are flaws in my argument but I am genuinely still interested in this :)
Click to expand...
Shambles said:
Pleasing reply, Ms Eff :)

It definitely doesn't start as a disease - and never for one moment feels like one - but I can kindasorta see how it could evolve into one. Possibly. Maybe. Perhaps.
Click to expand...
Oh absolutely - Mental / Physical symptoms can most certainly be caused by substance use.
Like you say, the word "Disease" isn't really apt. Infact, in my mind atleast, "Illness" doesn't quite cut it.
What I feel is that it's an ending factor of unfortunate life circumstances.
Though, ofcourse, there will be people out there in the world who become addicted to substances who don't have any apparent reason to become addicted to a substance, if you refer to the "unfortunate life circumstance".
So it's definitely not a yes-or-no situation.
 
^ yeah. We typed posts simultaneously, but I think this is really just coming down to semantics now rather than concepts.. :)
 
Forgive me for butting in but on the disease question, the concepts of health and disease are just convenient human categories for dealing with a world that isn't quite as simple and clean cut as we would like it. Atoms and molecules don't know about disease, they just behave according to the laws of nature.

Whether addiction is considered a disease or not is really just about your reasons for categorising it. It's a fuzzy human category, not a scientific one.

In my opinion!
 
^ Yeah that's pretty much the conclusion I have come to here as well :)

I don't like the categories used in psychiatry, medical model doesn't work and it's better to think in terms of symptoms and addressing predisposing/perpetuating factors rather than diseases because the concept of distinct disease entities is artificial and false and.. that seemed to fit with what I was trying to say somehow but am a bit drunk and I've lost my thread. But I agree :D

Shit I think I've undermined my "addiction is a disease" argument well and truly now, oh well..
 
effie said:
Shit I think I've undermined my "addiction is a disease" argument well and truly now, oh well..
Click to expand...

No, not at all! If you want addiction to be dealt with through the healthcare systems and people to be treated as suffering from an affliction outside their control, then you'd be silly not to call it a disease.
 
Thanks knock :D

Much as I love debating while drunk, I don't think I am at my sharpest in this state..
 
Much as I hate to admit it - and believe me I really hate to admit it - I am kindasorta coming to accept Ms Eff's position re: neurochem changes and stuff. Longterm addiction definitely does appear to change things above and beyond general longterm drug use. Purely from personal observation. Which may well mean shit all given it's purely personal. And it's somewhat difficult to seperate changes due to addictive behaviour compared with change in general. But gut tells me there are above and beyond changes. Positive or negative changes? Still to be confirmed...

I can actually see the comparison with diabetes, smoking-related conditions and the like: none are generally intentional but all may be somewhat predestined... possibly. Smoking is a weak link though, I'd say. Most folks fucked by smoking have no particular reason for starting nor continuing smoking beyond peer pressure and physical addiction. This is why it's so much harder than scag to kick a habit of.

Alcohol and food (either over or under eating versions thereof) I can definitely see connections with though. All seem to involve underlying... stuff... which seperates use from abuse in similar ways that seperate drug use from drug abuse and drug addiction.
 
:D

I think maybe we met in the middle Shammy? <3

Yeah when I was trying to list the possible predisposing factors for poor diet and smoking I did feel like that was a bit of a weak link too but glad you can see the general gist of my drunken rambling :)

Smoking is my current biggest substance problem I think :! that and smiley overuse 8(
 
I just seem to be addicted to not being sober. More than a few hours of sobriety (I can make to the evening!) and I start to pine for any old change to my conscious state. What can it mean?
 
Yeah that's a big problem for me too.. it means we like to explore altered mind states, not that we're psychologically addicted to being high, low or sideways. Or just find sobriety a little dull. Maybe ;)
 
You're in the medical profession effie? Can you say what you do? I'm hoping to join you, you see. Do your interests never conflict with your professional... um.. status?
 
Haha. I'll PM you, prefer not to go into specifics on here :)
 
Addiction to being fucked in general is a well-recognised part of addiction whether considered as disease or otherwise. Have just recently been referred to services to deal with such things. This is the lil niggle which allows me to consider the possibility of addiction as a thing in and of itself is possible more than simply a lifestyle choice. Mostly only ever come across NA/AA pricks when it comes to longterm chronic stylee addiction stuff but finally being referred to folks who are as dismissive of such blatant bollox as I am yet still can see potential for... possible issues has made me pause to ponder a tad.
 
No.

Well...

Depends on definitions and stuff.

Am I gonna keep floggin' me guts into pate till I drop?

Yes... I mean no... I mean... probably... but may pause for thought... now and again...

Wha...?!? Bollox to that. Dunno... Ish.

Fuck.

No addiction, binge observation - about as good as I can explicate it.
 
While you're in a slightly different league to me, I've also had several moments pause for thought lately. Jumping out my bedroom window was a slight concern, for a start. I don't blame drugs for any of my problems, on the contrary they've generally been a positive influence in providing me with entertainment and mood-lift when I'd otherwise have been miserable. But long-term they're probably not the best thing to rely on.

I've found supportive family members to be the most credible replacement for drug-fuckedness when dealing with shit that life gives me. I suppose I've been pretty lucky to have certain people in my family who are very non-judgemental and understanding. I can't imagine speaking about my problems to most of family. Least of all my parents! Emotions? Not their thing really.

I suppose... what I'm saying is that if you've been relying on drugs for emotional strength in various ways (and I count most drugs as a source of emotional strength) but have come to the realisation that it's not the healthiest dependency, there needs to be something to take their place, whether it's friends, family, people at work, lovers, whatever, something needs to take up the slack. Have you got that in place? I'm part of the way there myself but I've still got some way to go.
 
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