Research alcohols, carbamates and antique sedatives

[simstim]

Prenderol might work, but I don't think it will be very potent and will probably be VERY short acting. That's why they always used the dicarbamates of the diols whereas you can find some tertiary mono-alcohols that were used on their own back in the day (such as methylpentynol and 2m2b). The diols have to be dicarbamated in order to prevent super rapid oxidation of each carbon next to the OH.

Furthermore, I did try 2-methyl-2-propyl-1,3-propanediol and noticed this exact problem - super short - super weak - smells like sperm - not worth it at all. I talked a little more about it in my other thread "review of my favorite gabaergics". I just called it propanediol in there cause the name is too long.

You mean 3-phenyl-1-propanol. AKA Saturated Cinnamyl alcohol. I bought that a while back when I was researching these. It's not consumable due to its EXTREME SMELL. It would be like drinking some pure essential oil. It doesn't even seem to have the properties of an alcohol; it's like an oil.

No Cinnamyl alcohol is different than 2-phenylethanol. The carbon chain of Cinnamyl alcohol is longer and it contains a double bond.

 

[Synaps3]

No Cinnamyl alcohol is different than 2-phenylethanol. The carbon chain of Cinnamyl alcohol is longer and it contains a double bond.

Yes it is different, but phenprobamate is not made from 2-phenylethanol. It is 3-phenyl-1-propanol. That's why I said "saturated cinnamyl alcohol". I'm 100% sure.

 

[Fertile]

Paraldehyde (acetaldehyde cyclic trimer) is used as a drug like ethanol, believe it or not, so either acetaldehyde itself is active, or there is some fraction of acetaldehyde that gets metabolized "backwards" through alcohol dehydrogenase to form ethyl alcohol. I believe both of these facts are true, actually, and both acetaldehyde and ethanol are active as depressant drugs in vivo.

Yeah - when given IV they have to use glass syringes - it melts plastic. I was told about it by a guy who worked on an RSU and in his opinion it was useless. In schizophrenics at least. I was invited for a look around and those are scary places. I wore shirt and tie to look smart and was almost strangled because one patient had a problem with ties. It's such a terrible illness...

 

[Sandsandscully1970s]

Yes, I did write this. So far I've only tested three of them (2-methyl-2-butanol, 3-methyl-3-pentanol, and 1-ethylcycylopentanol). There is one more that I'm willing to test (2-cyclopropyl-2-butanol), but the rest are pretty sketchy. More research needs to be done on those first, but I don't have a formal lab.

You mentioned antique depressants , so would that include seconal ,nembutal, tuinal phenobarbital ... Just the one I can remember from grade school . Barbs and alcohol .. scary shit to even look back on ... Did em all. Drank with them once maybe twice bad choice both times . Never really cared for any sort of down rite depressing substances , alcohol being the very worst of all .. yet we drank it until something goes wrong .. it Always did . Until the second DUI. That the precipice ,...the realization of what could have been and now what will be and has been a life wasted by the living of it.Granted ,I know full well it wasn't the alcohol driving the car on either day. Just another mistake , another choice made in haste.. Had I known the relentless hell I was about to face and live in or on the edge . I would have walked the
eleven miles . Still, I have to pull the positive out this.. My conscious remains free of any death or dismemberment from my drunken disrespectful and immature character . Don't Drink and Drive people .

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Is barbital considered antique sedative? For me it was better than ethanol or benzos (with exception of etizolam but not really worse or better than etiz, just really different). I would describe it as subtle as phenibut and resembling GHB a lot more than ethanol. A lot more glowing, fuzzy, happy high than either ethanol or benzos but after a rather short time I understood why it’s not used any-more, beside being dangerous with ethanol but that it’s in fact beside that really harsh on the body. If I have know better I would still have it for rare use in special occasions as a social lubricant far superior to alcohol and benzos but it’s all down the drain because of adverse effects I had.

 

[Synaps3]

You mentioned antique depressants , so would that include seconal ,nembutal, tuinal phenobarbital ... Just the one I can remember from grade school . Barbs and alcohol .. scary shit to even look back on ... Did em all. Drank with them once maybe twice bad choice both times . Never really cared for any sort of down rite depressing substances , alcohol being the very worst of all .. yet we drank it until something goes wrong .. it Always did . Until the second DUI. That the precipice ,...the realization of what could have been and now what will be and has been a life wasted by the living of it.Granted ,I know full well it wasn't the alcohol driving the car on either day. Just another mistake , another choice made in haste.. Had I known the relentless hell I was about to face and live in or on the edge . I would have walked the
eleven miles . Still, I have to pull the positive out this.. My conscious remains free of any death or dismemberment from my drunken disrespectful and immature character . Don't Drink and Drive people .

Yes, the barbs would be considered, but I was personally searching for something that was more alcoholy and not like a lobotomy. There's a fair amount of danger associated with them as well.
This is why I think the tertiary alcohols and carbamates are so interesting. Many of them don't have the distortion of judgement problem that alcohol has, but they are still useful and fun. And I think the idea of finding the best alcohol is cool. It's kind of an overlooked subject even by the main person who claims to be doing just this (David Nutt). He looks at modern drugs like the Z-drugs as a better alternative. There's no way that will ever work as the receptor agonism is not broad enough with complex molecules. So overall, I see these obscure alcohols as something that should be researched farther. (Of course, they will probably never be super healthy cause they are alcohol after all, but they can be far better than ethanol - which is the goal.)
We've got vape on the cigarette side of things, but there is nothing like that on the alcohol side of things.

Is barbital considered antique sedative? For me it was better than ethanol or benzos (with exception of etizolam but not really worse or better than etiz, just really different). I would describe it as subtle as phenibut and resembling GHB a lot more than ethanol. A lot more glowing, fuzzy, happy high than either ethanol or benzos but after a rather short time I understood why it’s not used any-more, beside being dangerous with ethanol but that it’s in fact beside that really harsh on the body. If I have know better I would still have it for rare use in special occasions as a social lubricant far superior to alcohol and benzos but it’s all down the drain because of adverse effects I had.

I would consider it that, sure. I never tried it. I've had GHB and Soma (LOVED them) and Primidone which I'd expect to be similar. Primidone was the closest I got to a barb (it's not quite a barb, but close). It was nasty. Felt like I was falling into a black hole when I lied down for sleep. It was some sort of black hellish void (no I didn't black out).

What were those adverse effects you got from the barbital?

 

[SpiralusSancti]

It caused some kind of a skin problem, at first it started just as a few itchy spots on my fists that lasted just hours day after I would use it, but as I ignored that and continued to use it (I just liked it so much and found it way superior in many ways to modern alternatives) it progressed to a rather concerning and unpleasant point at which I stopped taking it. I know it was from barbital for sure, while I can’t be sure if it would happened if I only used it alone and not using whole rainbow of drugs (still I didn’t use it with alcohol or in any combos known to be dangerous) and doctor told me that reaction happened because of a fucked up liver.

But even with liver good as new if I ever get any barbiturates again I’ll be sure to have in mind that fact that they where superior in recreational sense was just one of the reasons they are almost never used anymore and are not a good choice for anything but a rare use.

Tertiary alcohols are certainly something worth looking into. Is body able to use them for energy up to a point same as with ethanol?

 

[polymath]

It caused some kind of a skin problem, at first it started just as a few itchy spots on my fists that lasted just hours day after I would use it, but as I ignored that and continued to use it (I just liked it so much and found it way superior in many ways to modern alternatives) it progressed to a rather concerning and unpleasant point at which I stopped taking it. I know it was from barbital for sure, while I can’t be sure if it would happened if I only used it alone and not using whole rainbow of drugs (still I didn’t use it with alcohol or in any combos known to be dangerous) and doctor told me that reaction happened because of a fucked up liver.

But even with liver good as new if I ever get any barbiturates again I’ll be sure to have in mind that fact that they where superior in recreational sense was just one of the reasons they are almost never used anymore and are not a good choice for anything but a rare use.

Tertiary alcohols are certainly something worth looking into. Is body able to use them for energy up to a point same as with ethanol?

Barbiturates can cause this problem as a side effect, and it can even be deadly in some cases so you don't want to risk that again.

Generalized Exfoliative Dermatitis

Generalized exfoliative dermatitis, or erythroderma, is a severe inflammation of the entire skin surface. This is due to a reaction to certain medicines, a pre-existing skin condition, and sometimes cancer.

www.hopkinsmedicine.org

 

[SpiralusSancti]

If someone can answer me this two thing that be cool -
a) As body can use up until certain amount of alcohol as fuel, is that amount “burned out” somehow changes overall effects? Do effects of x amount of ethanol drank with water on empty stomach would change if more of it is spent on energy because of dancing compared to sitting and spending minimum of it as “fuel”? In short how exactly pharmacology and pharmacokinetic are changed by spending part of ethanol as “fuel” and not letting it just metabolise until it becomes fat… If there’s any change at all..

b) What other drugs have caloric value? I assume at least some other alcohols also do?

I was wondering about that as I think ethanol being both food and drug has to do with appeal of alcohol at least and sugary drinks are supposed to get you more drunk so maybe some tweaking could be done by adding some sugar (or even more complex energy sources) to alcohol alternative would surely help emulating effects of alcohol even if only minimally I think alcohol alternative should have calories to better emulate effects even if it’s only to get some energy to be able to dance more. Anyone on this with me?

In my country vine and beer can advertised as they are considered food products but hard drinks can’t be. Kinda stupid, I don’t know if that’s because Egyptians used beer as food so we can too lol..

 

[Fertile]

Nobody has mentioned chlormezanone. It was patented in 1958 and was used in the UK until 1998. I think it's still used in China and is one of the simplest and cheapest anxiolytic/muscle relaxants known. It isn't that potent but if it's got a GSL (general sales licence) in China or India (it's certainly still sold in India) then scaled production would make it very cheap.
But it can provoke a serious side-effect - cannot be THAT common if it took 30+ years to find, but it's still important to know that their IS a small risk.

 

[Flynnal]

Aside from secobarbital (aka Seconal), vinylbital and chlomethiazole, I haven't come across any antique sedative that I would say is notable. What I can say is that chlomethiazole is comparable to vinylbital and is likewise quite intoxicating in higher doses.

I've used about 5 barbiturates in my lifetime. The first one I tried was amobarbital, and that was a private prescription back in 2002 by an old GP I managed to talk into writing a script, under the name "Neur-Amyl" which was really just generic 50mg Amytal tablets. Coming off that stuff was one tough bitch of an experience that I vowed never to go through again. The second one was pills of 65mg phenobarbital which I felt one pill was about 2/3rds as strong as a pill of 50mg amobarbital and less enjoyable, I never abused it, and only took it when I absolutely could not sleep and it had little recreational value because it lasted too long and took too long to kick in. Then I tried Seconal in 2003, now this was some strong shit. Nembutal that I tried in 2011 was maybe a little more than half as potent as the Seconal, at the same dose. I would need to almost double the dose of Nembutal to get the same potency as Seconal at that dose, so to get the effect of 100mg Seconal I'd need about 170mg of Nembutal.

Then along comes vinylbital. Got it in 2014. I have no idea where it ended up, but I moved in 2015 and I suspect it got lost in one of the throwout boxes filled with random junk. Now, this stuff was special. I'd say it would have been almost on par with Seconal, and there was an occasion where I swore it was even more potent. It was most definitely more powerful than Nembutal. When comparing them, as I still had Nembutal and vinylbital at the time, I would say 100mg of vinylbital was easily as potent as 150mg of Nembutal. 200mg of vinylbital legitimately knocked me on my arse and gave me transitory dementia for a few hours. All in all, 200mg of Seconal was about as potent a dose as I was willing to play with, but the funny thing is the vinylbital made me fight to stay awake at 200mg, whereas with Seconal I felt great and the effects were really strong but didn't feel as though I was being pounded to sleep.

Seconal would be my favourite barb. Vinylbital would be my second favourite of all the barbs I tried but nothing can touch Seconal, I admit that vinylbital came pretty close, but as far as I care there is no barb that can touch Seconal outside of maybe the anaesthetic intravenous barbs in terms of sheer potency.

Clomethiazole was a nice switch-up. It felt more like a strong benzo with a hint of phenibut. Initially, it had some euphoria but it quickly wore off, certainly didn't last as long as Seconal in terms of euphoria, but unlike vinylbital, it didn't have me pinned to the floor.

In closing, I will say that the most euphoric downer, by far, for me, is good old booze. Always has been, and always will be. Bundaberg master distiller's collection golden rum is my favourite and is so sweet and rich, like a soft creamy caramel and vanilla with an ever so slightly burnt sugar aftertaste. Nothing I've ever found as nice as that first bottle. Rum is about as antique sedative as it gets, and it works for me every time without fail.

 

[Fertile]

Often it's knowing the correct ROA as much as having the right compound. You CAN shoot clomethiazole for spectacular results... but that is one slippery slope.

There are downers out there that are in the crack league in terms of psychological dependence and pattern of usage (binging). I'm not about to bring them up but I AM surprised nobody has produced a glutethimide analog. 500mg of Doriden and 200mg of codeine packs more punch than heroin. Oral so not a HIT like H, but an even more powerful nod. Must be REALLY dangerous.

 

[Xorkoth]

In closing, I will say that the most euphoric downer, by far, for me, is good old booze. Always has been, and always will be. Bundaberg master distiller's collection golden rum is my favourite and is so sweet and rich, like a soft creamy caramel and vanilla with an ever so slightly burnt sugar aftertaste. Nothing I've ever found as nice as that first bottle. Rum is about as antique sedative as it gets, and it works for me every time without fail.

I agree that ethanol is very euphoric as far as sedatives go. Shame it's so toxic. Also, the initial rush of alcohol when you slam a couple of shots is where it's at, that dopamine rush is fantastic. But it's all downhill from there.

Don't get me wrong, I like alcohol, but I also hate it because it's so damn toxic. And compulsive as fuck chasing the initial high.

The most euphoric downer I've done (gabaergic I mean) is GHB, hands down. Love the stuff. Also can't have any in my possession because I'll get out of control very fast. Only drug I've ever ODed on and woken up in an ambulance, and that's with about 15 years of opiate addiction under my belt.

 

[Fertile]

I hated GHB, It made me sick. Gabapentin and Pregabalin are the best medical effort (almost). The lie that they don't produce dependence and addiction is only slowly being uncovered.... but the stuff costs $176/Kg so I expect it will be the next big thing. I mean, if 1Kf = 6000+ doses. Someone just needs to buy capsules that look right and cap them (a long, dull job).

Those of us who study a lot discovered HOCPA (legal everywhere) is active at 5-10mg. I fully expect it to replace benzos in the RC scene. If you love GHB - you will LUST this. Faster acting, same duration, less toxic (by 2 orders of magnitude).

But look further and you find 4-methyl pregabalin (a medicine in some nations) is x2-x3 pregabalin in potency, so a point (1/10th gram) will turn up on the black market. It does not x3 as much so Grisham's Law will kick in,

BTW I've just spent 4 days researching methaqualone (Quāālude/Mandrax). I discovered that while their ARE more potent analogues, they also seem to amplify the AMPA antagonist effects - so a downer that can cause seizures. Notice how dimethaqualone appeared in Germany in 2015 and was never heard of again? Well in animal studies it was x3 methaqualone as a sedative... but even when testing, people had seizures. SL-164 turned up in the USA and people had seizures.

Just remember - what might seem like a tiny change, controlled substance analogues are usually MORE dangerous.

Right now people are wringing profits out of benzos - and I will bet you a pound to a penny we see a lot of deaths.

 

[Cwest]

Those of us who study a lot discovered HOCPA (legal everywhere) is active at 5-10mg. I fully expect it to replace benzos in the RC scene. If you love GHB - you will LUST this. Faster acting, same duration, less toxic (by 2 orders of magnitude).

i am interested in learning more about this, is it available through RC sites?

assuming you are referencing 1-(1-hydroxy-4-oxocyclohexyl)cyclopropane-1-carboxylic acid?

 

[RDP89]

Ether? sure its drinkable. Ideally diluted, or followed by a chaser. (think something like a jagerbomb). It is pretty potent though, as is diisopropyl ether. The latter doesn't taste as good though (and has a nasty peroxidation tendency. Not that there is much of such a thing as a 'nice' peroxidation tendency in ethers prone to it. Or floated on an icy cold drink. Don't know if my signature cocktail recipe would ever take off in a bar...maybe, now the smoking ban is in force here, and it sure has to be safer than those nutcase liquid nitrogen-including drinks (these have killed a few people who didn't allow it to evaporate BEFORE swallowing)

IIRC the russkis/polish used to float it on milk. Sounds like it'd taste like shite. I don't mind either, but not together. Gives me the same mental image as somebody who recently mentioned eating a chocolate pizza.

IMO bypassing a breathalyzer is a pretty igfuckingnoble aim for such a product. 'hey, makes it easier to get shitfaced and kill kids'

Yes, ether drinking was actually quite popular in old times. https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(11)63779-8/fulltext

 

[Didgital]

I thought acetylaldehyde was the active drug that alcohol metabolized too

Pretty sure primary metabolite is acetic acid..

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Acetylaldehayde is toxic metabolite in part responsible for bad effects and hangover.
Also, ethanol is active per se and not a pro drug.

 

[Skorpio]

If someone can answer me this two thing that be cool -
a) As body can use up until certain amount of alcohol as fuel, is that amount “burned out” somehow changes overall effects? Do effects of x amount of ethanol drank with water on empty stomach would change if more of it is spent on energy because of dancing compared to sitting and spending minimum of it as “fuel”? In short how exactly pharmacology and pharmacokinetic are changed by spending part of ethanol as “fuel” and not letting it just metabolise until it becomes fat… If there’s any change at all..

b) What other drugs have caloric value? I assume at least some other alcohols also do?

I was wondering about that as I think ethanol being both food and drug has to do with appeal of alcohol at least and sugary drinks are supposed to get you more drunk so maybe some tweaking could be done by adding some sugar (or even more complex energy sources) to alcohol alternative would surely help emulating effects of alcohol even if only minimally I think alcohol alternative should have calories to better emulate effects even if it’s only to get some energy to be able to dance more. Anyone on this with me?

In my country vine and beer can advertised as they are considered food products but hard drinks can’t be. Kinda stupid, I don’t know if that’s because Egyptians used beer as food so we can too lol..

Ethanol is metabolized like this:

Ethanol <-> acetaldehyde <-> acetic acid => acetyl coA => citric acid cycle or fatty acid synthesis.

The first two reactions consume NAD+ making NADH. Formation of acetyl coA is ATP hydrolysis dependant, and the citric acid cycle generates NADH and ATP. Fatty acid oxidation consumes NADPH and generated NADP+ (and NAD+/H and NADP+/H can be introconverted by phosphorylation/dephosphorylation).

The regulation is where it gets more complicated. At first ethanol goes into the citric acid cycle and gets turned into CO2. As more ethanol is metabolized, the buildup of NADH inhibits the entry of acetyl coA into the citric acid cycle, so it is shunted into lipolysis (which is why ethanol causes fatty liver disease). Excess acetate is also reduced into acetaldehyde, which is one reason why hangovers worsen in a non-linear manner with ethanol dose (ie at lower doses, there is greater flux through the dehydrogenases, so less acetaldehyde accumulates; at higher doses you end up producing acetaldehyde from both ethanol and acetate).

Consuming a lot of fructose can produce a lot of NAD+ which will keep as much acetaldehyde from building up, but it increases flux through the lipolysis arm of the pathway, reducing hangovers, but worsening the development of fatty liver disease. This is because glucose can be kept out of glycolysis in high energy conditions, but fructose is not subject to that level of regulation.

If you wanted energy in an alcohol alternative, using a sugar would probably be the cleanest route. Using a fatty acid as a calorie source would likely be another approach that would avoid glycolysis similar to ethanol.

 

[polymath]

As I had planned in some other thread over here, I recently tested how potassium bromide (KBr) interacts with ethyl alcohol and how it relieves the hangover/WD afterwards. I obtained 100 grams of the salt as a photography chemical. When KBr was actually used as a human sedative and antiepileptic decades ago, the daily dose is said to have been 3 to 6 grams. It's half-life is 12 days, and based on this it can be calculated that with a 6 gram daily dose the KBr will accumulate in your body until there is a total of about 100 grams in you and then it remains stable at that amount. So a single dose of 6 g is not likely to cause much any immediate effect until you've taken that dose on several consecutive days. To cause a more immediate effect, you need a much larger "loading dose" of tens of grams, but this can't be taken all at once because that amount of KBr in your stomach at the same time can easily make you vomit. So you take few-gram doses dissolved in water every hour until the total amount is 20-30 grams or more.

Before starting my typical, extremely healthy, 7-day alcohol drinking bender, I took about 20 grams of KBr and the way how it potentiated alcohol was that it made me much more clumsy than normal drunkenness and I accidentally dropped ceramic plates and cups in the kitchen. When I ran out of booze and money, I took even more KBr, maybe even 45 grams during two days. It didn't immediately remove all the anxiety and other symptoms of hangover/alcohol WD, but that may just be because the simple dehydration and poor nutrition during a few previous days having been a factor.

After the effects really kicked in, I was feeling very sedated and couldn't walk as quickly as normal, or do anything else at normal pace either. It wasn't euphoric in the same way as benzos can be. But on the other hand benzos don't cause euphoria for more than a brief time after dosing, either, and you can't load an active dose of KBr in your body that quickly so that may be the reason for this. Also, if I tried to read something on that drug, I could keep on for only a minute before I started having double vision and couldn't continue. All in all, the effect can be described in the same way how Sekio or someone said about phenobarbital: "Like having a sand bag put on your head".

These kind of effects lasted for maybe 3 days before disappearing, and the reason why they disappeared could be just acute tolerance development. If I seem to be writing in a different style than usual, then it's probably because I still have tens of grams of KBr in my system and it's affecting me.

This is not a very healthy drug, because in extended use (half a year or more, maybe?) it can cause the bromism syndrome that gets you psychotic and delirious and has to be treated in a mental institution. It's possible that if this happens, it also causes some type of irreversible damage to your brain. Bromide usage can also cause bad acne (bad enough to leave scars) and other type of skin rashes. Actually, I already noted some really faint eczema type rash on my right arm. I have had that kind of rash on that part of my body even without bromides, but that was mostly when I was a teenager and less so as an adult. It was never really bad enough to be actually diagnosed as something.

So maybe this is something like a last resort if you have to involuntarily withdraw from long term alcohol or benzo usage and there's nothing else you can do, but I wouldn't use this drug for more than 1 month during a year, and not even that every year. Also, if it's sold as a photography chemical it would be better to recrystallize it first and add EDTA to chelate any heavy metal impurities, but I didn't do that in this case because I was in a kind of a fuck-all mood state when beginning this.

Edit: I also have to mention that while on this drug, I didn't feel the usual anxiety I have almost every day at some time of the clock, and in this respect it really was as effective as diazepam, so it's use as a sedative decades ago can be understood.