reducing amphetamine neurotoxicity

[nleksan]

I take 20mg Desoxyn (d,-methamphetamine) every day, and have figured out a decent "formula" for keeping me from feeling any effects from, or possibly preventing, neurotoxicity.

2x400mg Magnesium Oxide
1x100mg CoQ-10
2x500mg Taurine
1x B-Complex Vitamin
1x100mg 5-HTP
2x10mg Vinpocetine
1x100mg DMAE
1x500mg L-Tyrosine
2x350mg Choline
1x Omega-3 "950"
1x200mg Alpha Lipoic Acid
2x Glucosamine Chondroitin MSM

Also, because I work out, I consume 1oz of water per lb of body weight (175oz a day minimum), and 1 gram of protein per lb of body weight (harder to do, usually 150-200grams of protein a day). The protein shakes have a lot of essential amino acids in them as well, so they're good for you.

I've found that the above, combined with working out daily, has really made a difference. Magnesium helps a lot, probably the most noticeable out of the above.

 

[Merk]

wow. that's a pretty hardcore vitamin diet you got there @_@

i'd throw some fish oils in there though

i just brought my self some alpha lipoic acid ~_~

 

[Cone]

An above poster recommended vitamin C which is good, but be sure you take it only after your amps wear off because it interferes with absorption and speeds up the excretion of amphetamines.

That aside, I take magnesium, 5-htp (not anymore), fish oil, potassium, and calcium supplements as well as eat plenty of fruits and protein.

Also: don't neglect to sleep regularly. I've noticed that the weirdest and most damaging FEELING effects come from lack of sleep and taking more amps in an attempt to stay up.

It is important to note if you're taking dexamp or methamp, because methamp IME is a whole new ballgame as far as neurotoxicity is concerned. Plus that spun feeling from methamp is far more delicious and harder to say no to

 

[NikkiNumberNine]

Yeah, I agree that sleeping is crucial. I have a deal with myself that I must eat properly, get enough sleep at night, and maintain a healthy workout routine if I'm going to do drugs of any kinds. You have take care of your body if you're going to mess around with it with drugs.
So supplements are good, but I think if you do those three things, you'll be ahead of the game, speed-wise.

 

[Jabberwocky]

^ good points, unfortunately a lot of people who use drugs can't be bothered to work out which is a shame because I have a suspicion that drugs feel a LOT better to me when I am physically fit than other times in my life when I've been out of shape.

 

[<pyridinyl_30>]

I would recommend having on hand for the amphetamine comedown a stash of most any kind of benzodiazepines (xanax, valium, klonipin, restoril) and a few sedating atypical antipsychotics (geodon, zyprexa, risperdal, seroquel) to be used sporadically, judiciously, and only as needed.

(Atypical antipsychotics were selected by drug companies by making rats psychotic with amphetamines and then seeing which compounds reversed the amphetamine psychosis best, so they are ideal for this purpose, believe it or not.)

If you can't or don't want to get any of those, then there's always over the counter benadryl (diphenhydramine) or even ethyl alcohol in a pinch.

 

[nleksan]

wow. that's a pretty hardcore vitamin diet you got there @_@

i'd throw some fish oils in there though

i just brought my self some alpha lipoic acid ~_~

Yeah, it is. That took me over a year to perfect. It's a lot of pills in the morning, but it works. I posted it so that other people might find it a useful "formula" for them. This is tried and true, guys, and geared toward d,-methamp, so I imagine it works even better for regular amp.

The fish oils are the "Omega-3 950", should've specified though. They have:
2.75IU Vitamin E
950mg Omega-3 Polyunsaturates
542mg EPA
408mg DHA

The goal of my pill diet is to prevent/slow tolerance build-up, prevent/limit neurotoxicity, and to give my brain as much of the "ingredients" it needs to stay healthy considering that I take d,-methamp every day. I know it will take a toll on me, but I'm doing everything I can to limit it.

 

[zrawdog]

so when exactly do doses of amphetamine (adderall specifically) become neurotoxic? i started taking more lately because my tolerance went up a lot, and i usually end up taking about 120mg one day a week or so. do you think this is too much? sometimes i will take up to 150mg within 4-5 hours. i mostly take it orally but snort a little bit.

 

[Riemann Zeta]

Generally, I would recommend not going above 100mg of regular amphetamine in 24 hours. For methamphetamine, the dose would be lower, as methamphetamine releases almost 5-times the amount of dopamine that amphetamine does in DAT-expressing cells (Goodwin et al, 2009). Meth appears to be a whole new can of worms when it comes to addictiveness and toxicity...but it is hard to know if that is a result of the pharmacology of the compound itself (compared to regular amphetamine) or the ridiculously high doses that recreational users and addicts tend to administer. It seems that people who take meth usually take upwards of 100mg per dose (often taking more than one dose per day)--for those that administer it by smoking, a dose of 250mg per sitting is considered fairly routine. Clearly, mg for mg, methamphetamine is more toxic and far more addictive than regular amphetamine, but the fact that it seems to be used almost exclusively in over-the-top doses can't help matters.

Also, for tolerance sake, taking a low dose of amphetamine consistently is far better than taking a large dose (and I would say 150mg is definitely a large dose) sporadically. Sporadic high-dose amphetamine (and especially methamphetamine) administration seems to dramatically increase tolerance to the beneficial effects--cognitive enhancement, wakefulness, mood elevation--while paradoxically decreasing tolerance (or sensitizing, as it is called in the animal literature) to the negative effects--peripheral tweakiness, compulsive/stereotyped thoughts or motor behavior, insomnia, mania, etc... Consistent administration of low-dose amphetamine tends to exert the opposite effect: tolerance to the annoying peripheral effects but preservation of the cognitive benefits and central stimulation.

 

[The Monkey Mantra]

^^^ What do you consider "low-dose"?

 

[MurphyClox]

I'd say for amphetamine something around 30-70 mg, the exact amount depending a bit on your body weight. The value is taken from personal experience.

I can second Riemann's obersvation, referring in particular to his last sentence:

Consistent administration of low-dose amphetamine tends to exert the opposite effect: tolerance to the annoying peripheral effects but preservation of the cognitive benefits and central stimulation.

Very much the same here. The disadvantage, so to say, is that you have some difficulties when trying to (ab)use the drug as rave drug, where a higher stimulation up to real euphoria is desired; The mentioned preservation of the stimulating effects is not complete and to some degree you indeed do develop tolerance to these effects as well.

- Murphy

 

[nonnihilnitoris]

Also load up on the B complex vitamins

Yes, and may I also add that the B-vitamins should always be taken together, unless you have a specific B-vitamin deficiency (i.e. B12 due to nitrous use).

B-vitamins need to be taken in a certain ratio, if not, you are just throwing your body even more out of wack.

 

[The Monkey Mantra]

I'd say for amphetamine something around 30-70 mg, the exact amount depending a bit on your body weight. The value is taken from personal experience.

I can second Riemann's obersvation, referring in particular to his last sentence:

Very much the same here. The disadvantage, so to say, is that you have some difficulties when trying to (ab)use the drug as rave drug, where a higher stimulation up to real euphoria is desired; The mentioned preservation of the stimulating effects is not complete and to some degree you indeed do develop tolerance to these effects as well.

- Murphy

WOW. That's such good news. I'm on like 70 mg of Vyvanse and was worried tolerance would keep going up. I was hoping I could stabilize, 'cause when I go any higher I get manic (even if I get the same feeling of "stimulation" I did at a lower dose), and that's just no good for *anything*, be it work, social life, or emotional stability.

 

[The Monkey Mantra]

Generally, I would recommend not going above 100mg of regular amphetamine in 24 hours. For methamphetamine, the dose would be lower, as methamphetamine releases almost 5-times the amount of dopamine that amphetamine does in DAT-expressing cells (Goodwin et al, 2009).

How come the dose isn't five times less than d-amphetamine? Like, a 5 mg desoxyn is equivalent to a 10 mg dexedrine (actually, more like a 7.5) but much calmer - smoother in effect.

 

[SupDUDES]

Riemann Zeta is a pimp motherfucker. Nice info bro!

 

[Riemann Zeta]

Excellent point. I was going to mention that above but forgot. The results showing 5-fold greater dopaminergic efflux for methamphetamine were mainly in vitro, using cultured cells expressing the human DAT. In actual people, based upon phenomenological response to both compounds, d-meth is around 2 times more potent than d-amph (but it is still probably more neurotoxic than d-amph, even adjusting for dose).

I honestly don't how anyone is prescribed Desoxyn for ADD--as it only comes in 5mg tablets, according to the dose-adjustment, I would need 180 of those buggers per month to equal my daily Dexedrine dose. Not to mention the fact that Desoxyn is super sketchy to prescribe and nearly impossible to obtain (and also ridiculously pricy).

 

[uacvax]

Generally, I would recommend not going above 100mg of regular amphetamine in 24 hours. For methamphetamine, the dose would be lower, as methamphetamine releases almost 5-times the amount of dopamine that amphetamine does in DAT-expressing cells (Goodwin et al, 2009). Meth appears to be a whole new can of worms when it comes to addictiveness and toxicity...but it is hard to know if that is a result of the pharmacology of the compound itself (compared to regular amphetamine) or the ridiculously high doses that recreational users and addicts tend to administer. It seems that people who take meth usually take upwards of 100mg per dose (often taking more than one dose per day)--for those that administer it by smoking, a dose of 250mg per sitting is considered fairly routine. Clearly, mg for mg, methamphetamine is more toxic and far more addictive than regular amphetamine, but the fact that it seems to be used almost exclusively in over-the-top doses can't help matters.

Also, for tolerance sake, taking a low dose of amphetamine consistently is far better than taking a large dose (and I would say 150mg is definitely a large dose) sporadically. Sporadic high-dose amphetamine (and especially methamphetamine) administration seems to dramatically increase tolerance to the beneficial effects--cognitive enhancement, wakefulness, mood elevation--while paradoxically decreasing tolerance (or sensitizing, as it is called in the animal literature) to the negative effects--peripheral tweakiness, compulsive/stereotyped thoughts or motor behavior, insomnia, mania, etc... Consistent administration of low-dose amphetamine tends to exert the opposite effect: tolerance to the annoying peripheral effects but preservation of the cognitive benefits and central stimulation.

So what if I was stupid and already took a 200 mg dose that fucked up my tolerance? This was like 2 years ago, is there anything I can do now, such as start low dosing amphetamine to try to bring down the tolerance?

I hardly ever take it anymore, but if I do it takes about 60 mg to get high from it, but it lasts for fucking days and the comedown also takes days, and it's a nightmare from hell.

I think some other BLer mentioned he was able to lower his tolerance by (paradoxically) taking low dose amphetamine. Logically, not taking any amphetamine at all would make more sense for lowering tolerance but I don't know if that is the case.

HALP!

 

[The Monkey Mantra]

Riemann Zeta, I used to get 120 of them a month - 4 a day. Had great health insurance. I couldn't stand the buggers. I just told the doctor "I've been on this drug... desoxyn? Before, and it worked a lot better than the dexedrine. I got less anxious." He wasn't so against it. I don't think the 10 mg doses I ate a day were all that neurotoxic, but who knows?

They were alright, I guess, but like my levorphanol prescription they mostly went to friends.

 

[zrawdog]

So what if I was stupid and already took a 200 mg dose that fucked up my tolerance? This was like 2 years ago, is there anything I can do now, such as start low dosing amphetamine to try to bring down the tolerance?

I hardly ever take it anymore, but if I do it takes about 60 mg to get high from it, but it lasts for fucking days and the comedown also takes days, and it's a nightmare from hell.

I think some other BLer mentioned he was able to lower his tolerance by (paradoxically) taking low dose amphetamine. Logically, not taking any amphetamine at all would make more sense for lowering tolerance but I don't know if that is the case.

HALP!

does it really last that long? i've only taken doses 90mg and above maybe 5-10 times before, but even after waiting a while i can never really get high from low to medium doses. i thought my tolerance would go down after waiting a week or two but it never seems to... does anyone know how long it takes to go back to normal, or does it never really go back down that much?

 

[shibireru]

does it really last that long? i've only taken doses 90mg and above maybe 5-10 times before, but even after waiting a while i can never really get high from low to medium doses. i thought my tolerance would go down after waiting a week or two but it never seems to... does anyone know how long it takes to go back to normal, or does it never really go back down that much?

Well, I don't know how long exactly, but "a week or two"? You've got to be kidding me.

(Please note before reading further that I am a total dilettante of neurology and neuropharmacology and so what I say may range from being far-removed from the truth to being the complete opposite of the truth.)

My guess is that, regardless of the duration of the period of abstention, you will never regain the full sensitivity to the drug which you had in your amphetamine-naive state. Unlike D1 receptors, when D2 receptors are overstimulated and retreat into the cytoplasm, they are irreparable degraded by GASP ([[[guanine nucleotide]-binding protein]-coupled receptor protein]-associated sorting protein). The only way to replenish them at that point is to wait for new D2 receptor proteins to be transcribed from mRNA or to induce mRNA transcription of the same through the use of some substance or another. The problem is that with long-term amphetamine use there may occur epigenetic changes which decrease the rate of transcription of this protein or prevent it altogether. Don't know.

You might try a first-generation anti-psychotic or something. Beware that there is a huge number of very unpleasant side-effects that may occur as a result of the use of such a substance: neuroleptic malignant syndrome, tardive dyskinesia, general parkinsonianism, dysphoria, low motivation, cognitive blunting, affective blunting, blah, blah, blah... You'll be at a higher risk of experiencing many of these side-effects, too, as a result of your amphetamine (ab)use, I'm guessing.

Forskolin, inositol, and phophodiesterase 4 inhibitors MIGHT help. Might.