Opioids Recreational use of buprenorphine while on bupe maintenance

[Mudeltakappa]

Well, first of all... if this is not the right place for this post, and it should be in dark side or perhaps part of the bupe megathread, I apologize.

On to the issue. I've been on Bupe maintenance for 8 years now - 16 mg daily for most of that time, but sometimes only 12mg daily in the past year. I was on Suboxone for most of the time, but I recently switched to generic Subutex due to the much lower cost... should have asked my doctor for that years ago. Suboxone is ridiculously expensive.

Anyway, up until a few months ago I never even attempted to use bupe "recreationally" simply because I assumed it was impossible due to my long-standing tolerance and bupe's actions as a partial rather than full agonist and the resulting "ceiling effect." However, one night, when I was experiencing some anxiety issues (I actually have those daily as I suffer from OCD) I decided to take an extra 8 mg sublingual tablet. To my surprise... I felt something. It was mild, to be sure, very mild... but it felt nice.

So a few nights later I decided to experiment with a higher dose again, but this time crushing up the tablets and snorting them. This worked even better. Again, the high was mild, but it was there - there was even a slight rush. That warm opiate glow that I hadn't experienced for years and wasn't sure I'd ever experience again was back. It's been a couple of months now and I'm snorting the stuff 3-4 times a week at dosages ranging between 20 - 40 mg (usually about half sublingual and half snorted), and I have cravings to snort it every single day. Going over that dosage range is futile and as expected due to bupe's ceiling, provides no additional effects save maybe mild nausea.

In order to not run out of my script early I simply use less on some days so I have extra to snort on other days. This is getting more difficult for me though. The high is even milder now than it was at the beginning of this little experiment, but I continue to crave it. It's really only ~20 minutes worth of warmth, analgesia and anxiolysis, followed by an hour or two of a "not quite baseline" state and then its gone. The duration has also been getting shorter and shorter lately.

My point I guess is this: has anyone else experienced anything similar? Most people on bupe maintenance say its impossible to get high, and while that's sort of true because the high can't at all compare to a real, full-on opiate high... a pleasant buzz is attainable for me.

I guess I'm just going to have to force myself to stop doing this and get back to regular sublingual use. My opiate habit was a small one back when I first got on Bupe (mostly just hydro), but bupe saved my life in a lot of ways - it was the most effective anti-anxiety medication and anti-depressant I'd ever come across, and at that point in my life that sort of thing was desperately needed. I'm not happy that strong drug craving has been reintroduced into my life. I also worry about my nose, although crushed up Subutex tablets aren't painful to snort (unless you rail a big line all at once) and I haven't experienced any congestion or anything - still, its obviously not healthy. Any thoughts, advice, anything at all?

Sorry for the long post.

 

[DeLee]

Well yeah, Im on Bupe maintenance too, 16mg/day right now.
Ive only been on this program for ~4months but have used Bupe a lot before between heroin binges.

Anyway, I do also snort some of the Suboxone i get. Just to get that instant feeling.
I would just categorize it as some type of mood-stabilizing feeling. Get a little extra energy.

 

[aaaaa8]

Yeah I've been on it a week now and that first dose I snorted 4mg and I got high as shit. It was nice. I still get sorta high but not near as good as that first time obviously.

 

[Ganjalist]

In kinda in same boat... Had last opiate on jan 1st & been rockin 2-3 norcs since.. Have scrips for 1 Xanax bar a day& 2 mgs of & 20mg generic celexa...
Hae about 10-2 mg methadone & 8 & a half - 8mg subox got from deala.
Wondering what to take FIrST .. Done or box?? After
My Last norc that is which will be this fukin sat or Sunday :-(
Taken box on last 4 month stint of sobriety.. But relapsed & been going strong for another year now.. Any other info in HErbal / HOMEOPATHIC things I canfo to make myself feel better while
Coming down at home with by man who is in same damn boat ha! We work from home together so U can imagine what goes in when we BOTH comin down. :-/
But really need to know I take the methadone first .. Taper off then subox.. Taper off and Leave ourselves with with good old Mary Jane and my regular scripts ..
Vitamins?? B12, B6, multi, energy food?? But what kind if food & how the fuck do I find energy to make anything when a damn shower is a mission!!???
Lol but shouldn't be
Thank u anyone, in advance for any info/advice/ help/insight about this done or box first & anything else I've been rambling on about.. Sorry.
Much love & respect to all me people xoxo

 

[Ganjalist]

2 mgs of... Clonopin

 

[Mudeltakappa]

Yeah I've been on it a week now and that first dose I snorted 4mg and I got high as shit. It was nice. I still get sorta high but not near as good as that first time obviously.

Yeah when I first got on bupe I was high for... hell, months! That's because my doctor at the time put me on 16mg/day despite the fact that 4 mg probably would have been plenty seeing as I had a relatively minor addiction. But I wasn't complaining...

I was just kind of shocked I could still get a mild buzz after nearly 8 years of bupe maintenance.

 

[Peco..]

Same story here. I'm tired right now and the only advice right now is:
1.Get a hold of a saline solution (store bought or homemade) if your going to be snorting big rails. <you 'snort' some of the salt water 20-25mins after doing lines and it helps recover any sinus damage.
2.For under the tongue: Don't crush any pills before you take them sub lingual. Sub lingual works best if the pill is in tact and takes it's time dissolving. (I say this cos i used to make the mistake of breaking them before taking them and felt nothing..)

-tim

 

[Wesley_pipes_27]

If you're hellbent on using bupe for recreation, you might want to ask the pharmacist for the Midlothian Labs brand of sublingual pills. They are much, much smaller (hence less fillers). About the size of an A215 Roxy. They come in 4mg & 8mg. I take the 8mg tablets and I love them. They're the cheapest too.

 

[Mr Blonde]

Any other info in HErbal / HOMEOPATHIC things I canfo to make myself feel better

Don't waste your money on homeopathy, it does nothing more then a placebo would.

Valerian works for some people, for others it doesn't. It may help you sleep and make you relaxed.

Kava is pretty good, I like that.

Vitamins won't really do much unless you have a deficiency, though if you can't eat properly due to nausea during WD then they may help fill the gaps if you can keep them down.

Also, it's kinda rude to hijack someone's thread like that.

Mudeltakappa: You definitely need to get back to taking the bupe as you are meant to. Now that you are at the ceiling dose and wanting that high again, it's the old cliché of a slippery slope. Especially if you are planning on getting of the bupe and being completely clean one day.

Probably try cutting down the amount of times you are snorting it each week slowly? That's probably the best way, it's what I've done with codeine. Used to use it every day, got clean and have picked it up again. I was using it at least four times a week, but have now cut it down to once a week and am planning on keeping it that way.

 

[Mudeltakappa]

Thanks everyone for your input, I appreciate it.

 

[allalong]

In kinda in same boat... Had last opiate on jan 1st & been rockin 2-3 norcs since.. Have scrips for 1 Xanax bar a day& 2 mgs of & 20mg generic celexa...
Hae about 10-2 mg methadone & 8 & a half - 8mg subox got from deala.
Wondering what to take FIrST .. Done or box?? After
My Last norc that is which will be this fukin sat or Sunday :-(
Taken box on last 4 month stint of sobriety.. But relapsed & been going strong for another year now.. Any other info in HErbal / HOMEOPATHIC things I canfo to make myself feel better while
Coming down at home with by man who is in same damn boat ha! We work from home together so U can imagine what goes in when we BOTH comin down. :-/
But really need to know I take the methadone first .. Taper off then subox.. Taper off and Leave ourselves with with good old Mary Jane and my regular scripts ..
Vitamins?? B12, B6, multi, energy food?? But what kind if food & how the fuck do I find energy to make anything when a damn shower is a mission!!???
Lol but shouldn't be
Thank u anyone, in advance for any info/advice/ help/insight about this done or box first & anything else I've been rambling on about.. Sorry.
Much love & respect to all me people xoxo

Do not do not do not, no matter what you do with drugs, and I can't state this with enough emphasis to make clear how much I hope that you read this before attempting such a thing, DO NOT EVER take suboxone (buprenorphine) after using methadone, or any other full-agonist opiate, at least until you're feeling withdrawal. If you do, you will be thrown into something called precipitated withdrawal, which is like regular withdrawal, but the full brunt of it hits you instantly and you can't do anything to make it go away, unless you've only used a small amount of buprenorphine.

 

[funkee]

You're going to push your tolerance up very quickly. With Bupe, it's very important to taper UP when you increase your dose. An increasing dose will produce a locally synthesized antagonist called beta arrestin to stifle the effects and semi-permanently raise your tolerance. I assure you that bupe will lose its magic very quickly as well, because of its diminishing returns. The difference of effect between 2 and 4mg is much larger than the difference between 22 and 24mg.

The problem with that is bupe has a ceiling effect at 32mg. So you will soon need that much just to cover your symptoms. If you keep pushing it, you will be in a lot of trouble where 32mg may still leave you symptomatic. The goal of BMT is to reduce the ups and downs associated with use, so your receptors can recover and your brain will start producing dopamine from normal activities. If you want to get high don't use bupe, you're going to ruin possibly the only medication that can help many quit.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I assure you that bupe will lose its magic very quickly as well, because of its diminishing returns.

I don't agree with this. Full agonist opiates are more likely to "lose the magic" IME.

 

[funkee]

Why's that Capt? Is my understand of 'losing magic' wrong? The euphoria one can get from a partial agonist is very limited, both in terms of dosage and individuals with low tolerance (to bupe). My point is that this euphoria fades quickly; if one chases the rush, itchies, etc they will run into the ceiling quickly.

The drug is definitely helpful for alleviating craving and improving mood, but if you're looking for the classic opiate euphoria, you're not going to go very far with bupe.

I did this very thing the OP is asking about. I found that the dose I was at wasn't covering my w/d symptoms. My habit was hefty. I took a higher dose and it brought me above and beyond baseline. I thought that was great, but soon that new dose no longer did that for me. It simply kept me at baseline. I upped it again, only to have the same thing happened. Then I ended up at the ceiling.

 

[Mudeltakappa]

You're going to push your tolerance up very quickly. With Bupe, it's very important to taper UP when you increase your dose. An increasing dose will produce a locally synthesized antagonist called beta arrestin to stifle the effects and semi-permanently raise your tolerance. I assure you that bupe will lose its magic very quickly as well, because of its diminishing returns. The difference of effect between 2 and 4mg is much larger than the difference between 22 and 24mg.

The problem with that is bupe has a ceiling effect at 32mg. So you will soon need that much just to cover your symptoms. If you keep pushing it, you will be in a lot of trouble where 32mg may still leave you symptomatic. The goal of BMT is to reduce the ups and downs associated with use, so your receptors can recover and your brain will start producing dopamine from normal activities. If you want to get high don't use bupe, you're going to ruin possibly the only medication that can help many quit.

You're quite right of course, and I thank you for the response. I've decided to go back to my 12 mg/day dose immediately... fuck the cravings, I'll manage. I may be more anxious than normal for a few days because I've been using so much more, but I think I'll be fine and I hope I can get back to normal bupe maintenance quickly.

Also, can you elaborate a bit more on beta arrestin? I don't know much about this.

 

[funkee]

Not a whole lot is known about arrestins. What is known, is that it acts on the mu receptors to desensitize them in the presense of some excess stimulus, usually opioids and in our case buprenorphine. It is thought that this protein (beta-arrestin) is responsible for buprenorphine tolerance and may be locally synthesized at the receptor site.

There's a little bit more information here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrestin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrestin_beta_2
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11130073

In terms of managing cravings, may I suggest the following, which has worked for me.

You should to find a dose where you aren't immediately itching for a fix. Unfortunately for me, that ended up being the ceiling dose for the very reasons you described in the original post. It's very possible that the dose you require may be higher than 12mg/day. It's also important to identify the causes of craving: they can include access, stress, places and people with whom you used to use. Dealing with those causes is usually done by avoidance.

The reason I sought more from bupe was because my life was lacking in pleasure. I ditched a very pleasureful activity (an opiate habit) and replaced it with... nothing. That wasn't my best decision. I needed to substitute it with more dopamine inducing activities. Recovering means getting your brain to start making its own dopamine. The dopamine is what you want. How you get it doesn't matter all that much. The best sources of dopamine are usually exercise, sex, good company, but can include anything that you enjoy. Think of it this way: who is thinking about heroin while on a roller coaster? No one!

With such things, the initial dopamine rush may not be huge. But with a little time, you will be back to your old self and possibly better. If you choose the exercise path, and you really exert yourself (and I mean really exert to your limit) you will be very impressed with how good you feel. That exercise halo effect will last for a few hours too.

 

[Mudeltakappa]

Good advice and information. You're right its possible I may need more than 12mg/day, but its going to have to do... anymore than that and I'll run out of my prescription way early. I think it will at least be close to sufficient though. I had a couple of days of just 12 mg about a week ago.

And I'm not sure what it was about your original reply... but something about it really snapped me out of the mental state I was in and has convinced me of what I need to do. So thanks a lot, you've helped me.

I need to exercise more anyway. I think I'll go for a run tomorrow.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Why's that Capt? Is my understand of 'losing magic' wrong? The euphoria one can get from a partial agonist is very limited, both in terms of dosage and individuals with low tolerance (to bupe). My point is that this euphoria fades quickly; if one chases the rush, itchies, etc they will run into the ceiling quickly.

The drug is definitely helpful for alleviating craving and improving mood, but if you're looking for the classic opiate euphoria, you're not going to go very far with bupe.

I did this very thing the OP is asking about. I found that the dose I was at wasn't covering my w/d symptoms. My habit was hefty. I took a higher dose and it brought me above and beyond baseline. I thought that was great, but soon that new dose no longer did that for me. It simply kept me at baseline. I upped it again, only to have the same thing happened. Then I ended up at the ceiling.

I just personally have not lost the magic with buprenorphine and I have been using it a long time. Maybe I am an anomaly when it comes to this? Could be. I get a lot of euphoria out of it.

 

[Georgie25]

I find low doses of subs give the most positve effects. Doses under 2mg act more as an full agonist than if you were to take bigger doses of suboxone (8mg+). I forget why this is, hopefully someone can chime in with the info. But I feel so much better just IVing .5mg of suboxone than if I were ever to IV 24mg or even 4-8mg at once.