Reckitt's Suboxone Strategy Is Really About Patients Or Profits?

[Captain.Heroin]

No problem!

Best of luck with figuring things out. I've always been of the belief that I'd rather stay on buprenorphine as long as it took, instead of risking relapsing.

Even if R&B wants to charge top dollar for buprenorphine, the US Government should subsidize the cost to a very affordable amount for people trying to recover who really need the assistance; it makes no sense to "fight a war on drugs" without actively helping drug users battle their addictions - especially for those addicts who desperately want to battle their addictions.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Best of luck with figuring things out. I've always been of the belief that I'd rather stay on buprenorphine as long as it took, instead of risking relapsing.

amen to that, even if it means staying on bupe indefinitely.
/what are hte long-term issues, if any are known, of regular bupe usage? Like, years and years obviously, not just a quick taper.

Even if R&B wants to charge top dollar for buprenorphine, the US Government should subsidize the cost to a very affordable amount for people trying to recover who really need the assistance; it makes no sense to "fight a war on drugs" without actively helping drug users battle their addictions - especially for those addicts who desperately want to battle their addictions.

it goes w/o saying that the drug war is absurdly ineffective, but honestly i think it's run its course. MJ is the biggest stepping stone, i mean i heard something to the effect of "DEA has better things to worry about(than pot)" from obama, re why they weren't hitting the states that just legalized. I'm not suggesting that i think we'll see anything approaching full-scale legalization, but the mmj issue will do SOOOO much for opening the topic up and changing perspectives, i think it will have repercussions through things as seemingly disconnected as opiate abuse. May be wishful thinking, time will tell i guess.

 

[Crankinit]

The thing about marijuana is that it shows that you can adopt an approach other than full blown prohibition without the sky falling down. Once people see the benefits and reduced harms, they'll be more open to other changes, hopefully included expanded opiate maintenance, in the future.

 

[Jabberwocky]

No problem! Best of luck with figuring things out. I've always been of the belief that I'd rather stay on buprenorphine as long as it took, instead of risking relapsing.

amen to that, even if it means staying on bupe indefinitely.
/what are hte long-term issues, if any are known, of regular bupe usage? Like, years and years obviously, not just a quick taper.

Thanks guys, this is the goal, how I feel exactly. My anxiety about all this isn't that bad though, I mean I'm just thinking about hypotheticals and preparing for worst case scenarios just so that if and when I can no longer be on bupe maint I will have a plan in place that won't end in the unraveling a lot of my recent success. And if it ever comes down to it, I am confident I'd be successful in not using dope as long as I'm self medicating with PPT or even Kratom alkaloids (well more the former than the latter) - the reasons I'd rather stay on bupe than PPT is the legal aspect, convenience, as well as cost - all matters of practicality (not pharmacological efficacy I mean).

In terms of short term - long term bupe use, the biggest thing to be concerned about is its effect on testosterone/estrogen - especially considering I potentiated it with Tagamet daily for a while there. I'm not too worried about that, because I don't do that any more and find it's pretty easy to control with diet and exercise (thus far at least). Long term - long term use, it would probably becomes a bigger issue, meaning if you really want to have kids you need to keep up with your doc and check sperm counts. Then again, this is a much more significant problem with methadone than bupe, or even some full agonists compared to bupe. Again, diet and exercise play a big role though, plus what if any other drugs are being used, so I'm not to worried about it.

For some people this is a really big deal and they have to be very careful, but luckily it doesn't seem like I'm one of them (and frankly I think this is a small sub-population that needs more than diet/exercise to combat bupe related hormone issues). Heck, I'm more concerned with staying on the stuff! bupe that is

p.s. Reindeerspotting was good. Not one of my favorites, but a good guerrilla style doc all around.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

amen to that, even if it means staying on bupe indefinitely.
/what are hte long-term issues, if any are known, of regular bupe usage? Like, years and years obviously, not just a quick taper.

There are very rare instances where people have negative reactions to Suboxone - but I think that normally develops rather quickly, before they have a chance to be on it a long time.

Buprenorphine can cause constipation the more and more you use it, but there are ways to counteract this (eating more fiber, drinking more water to counteract the water retention, or using drugs to counteract the water retention).

Others can feel free to add in more that I may left out.

In terms of short term - long term bupe use, the biggest thing to be concerned about is its effect on testosterone/estrogen

Buprenorphine doesn't negatively impact testosterone. There is a study Pegasus cited on this. Full agonists like heroin, and especially methadone do. But buprenorphine does not.

I would go hunting for the study but I'm kind of lazy feeling at the moment. %)

 

[Jabberwocky]

that's good to know- i've heard of long-term issues that many ppl experience from methadone usage, if *any* product can act as a long-term maintenance therapy, w/o any significant sides, then it's truly great.
/sorta off-topic, but the idea of a similar product for nicotine has come up in my head a lot lately (yes, i'm still at the "wearing patches and smoking a couple daily" stage fml). Why on earth hasn't someone come up with a naloxone-esque nicotinic antagonist yet? Fuck replacements like patches and gums, a full-on blocker that makes nico ineffective could be HUGE (kind of like the coke 'vaccine' i've read about)

 

[Jabberwocky]

Buprenorphine doesn't negatively impact testosterone. There is a study Pegasus cited on this. Full agonists like heroin, and especially methadone do. But buprenorphine does not.

I would go hunting for the study but I'm kind of lazy feeling at the moment. %)

I certainly don't know much about it, so maybe I should just refer to it as a hormone problem. It certainly doesn't affect most people, as I had never ever heard about this issue before I began experiencing it for myself, but when you're using bupe or methadone or whatever else opioid with Tagamet, and take them every day, you have to be very careful what you eat because any increase in body fat goes straight to the man boobs. Trust me, I know. I've talked to a number of people on the subject, lay and professional alike, and the consensus that bupe itself, although not as much as other opioids, does have an effect on hormones. If you're just taking bupe (or said opioid), and don't have some genetic predisposition or whatever, you'll probably be a-ok. However, throw something like Tagamet in the mix that is known to lead to said problems (man boobs), if it becomes something done habitually and/or at even just above normal dosages, you're pretty much guaranteed tits. And of course the more Tagamet you take the faster the problem gets outta hand. Anyways, thank god I narrowly avoid that one... diet and exercise (and cutting the tagamet and bupe doses), diet and exercise

 

[Jabberwocky]

IIRC tagamet has effect on cyp450 (like, say, grapefruits), tho I'm unsure what relation to gyno that could have (gynocoma<no way in hell i spelled that close to accurate> is the technical term and is typically caused by higher than norm levels of estrogen; if, for example, i were to cycle testosterone for a few months, i'd be damned sure to stick to protocol and use my tamoxifen<anti-estrogen/breastcancer med> after my cycle>)
I'm very very interested in hearing more on this (going to pm your post to guido; if anyone can elaborate it's likely him). Our bodies hold fat based on genetic predispositions, adn when the fat is held out of norm (ie tits on a man / gyno), that is not normal and not an issue of general fat-retention, but hormonal as you suggest)
/EDIT: his pm box is full...
//EDITv.2: nm, some asshole apparently used username "guido", and the go-to man is "-guido-". message sent, hopefully he'll come clarify

 

[laCster]

i for one am hppy i had the opportunity to switch off stupid fucking naloxone based products aka suboxone to pure generic buprenorphine tablets. no more random nausea and headache spells hooray!

 

[Jabberwocky]

IIRC tagamet has effect on cyp450 (like, say, grapefruits), tho I'm unsure what relation to gyno that could have (gynocoma<no way in hell i spelled that close to accurate> is the technical term and is typically caused by higher than norm levels of estrogen; if, for example, i were to cycle testosterone for a few months, i'd be damned sure to stick to protocol and use my tamoxifen<anti-estrogen/breastcancer med> after my cycle>)
I'm very very interested in hearing more on this (going to pm your post to guido; if anyone can elaborate it's likely him). Our bodies hold fat based on genetic predispositions, adn when the fat is held out of norm (ie tits on a man / gyno), that is not normal and not an issue of general fat-retention, but hormonal as you suggest)
/EDIT: his pm box is full...
//EDITv.2: nm, some asshole apparently used username "guido", and the go-to man is "-guido-". message sent, hopefully he'll come clarify

Lol, yea I think he might have replied to a post I made about it in the steroid forum. I've talked to a few people, well two, who got this bad. They were taking like 1-3g multiple times a day for over a year, and during this period they also starting eating really really poorly (i.e. lots of fried fatty high carb and saturated fat/cholesterol foods). I just don't fucking need that right now... Hypothetically though, if I was in their situation, to get back to normal, I'd have to stop the tagamet (duh), taper off the suboxone/opioids and stay off drugs pretty generally speaking (I'm sure some weed here and there wouldn't hurt too much, same with most psychedelics) AND eat healthy (certain foods - i.e. broccoli, which I actually love irl anyhow) AND work my ass off at the gym/track/bike/field/pool/trail/ocean/etc. etc.

Anyways, thanks for the info

 

[-Guido-]

IIRC tagamet has effect on cyp450 (like, say, grapefruits), tho I'm unsure what relation to gyno that could have (gynocoma<no way in hell i spelled that close to accurate> is the technical term and is typically caused by higher than norm levels of estrogen; if, for example, i were to cycle testosterone for a few months, i'd be damned sure to stick to protocol and use my tamoxifen<anti-estrogen/breastcancer med> after my cycle>)
I'm very very interested in hearing more on this (going to pm your post to guido; if anyone can elaborate it's likely him). Our bodies hold fat based on genetic predispositions, adn when the fat is held out of norm (ie tits on a man / gyno), that is not normal and not an issue of general fat-retention, but hormonal as you suggest)
/EDIT: his pm box is full...
//EDITv.2: nm, some asshole apparently used username "guido", and the go-to man is "-guido-". message sent, hopefully he'll come clarify

Tagamet has an impact on normal male hormones, specifically in their growth and regulation. Male characteristics such as having a deep voice or hair growth are created by hormones called androgens, which we all know. While men have androgens and estrogens, Tagamet can the change the levels, causing enlarged breasts. It's rare side effect, but when you combine heavy Tagament use with recreational and habitual use of opiates, which lower Testosterone levels and production leading to an increase in estrogen, you end up with a greater chance for gyno estrogen related fat deposits.

Some faggot stole my name? I'll fucking rape all the women in his life and slit his throat, the piece of shit.

 

[Jabberwocky]

LOL thanks -Guido-