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Quick chemistry question

Beenhead

Beenhead

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Okay. we asked in the Big and dandy thread to no avail. when choosing an extraction method, for DMT, what's the deal with the Straight to bare teK? chemically it does not make sense to add base when the alkaloids are already freebase. I thought Acid is required to Help the alkaloids from washing away during the defatting in non polar Solvent. How does that He make higher yields? it shouldn't.
 
I'm not fimilar with this procedure but base could be added to neutralize a low pH, or they could be added to deprotonate organic acids causing them to have charge ergo dissolve in the aqueous phase.
 
this procedure is in erowid as DMT for the masses. Instead of a basic Acid Base extraction we all learn in organic. it skips the addition of acid. DMT in M. Hostillis is freebase. whats the point of adding the base to already freebase DMT? Also, wouldn't you loose a bunch when defatting with non polar solvent? Youkal and others swear this is great im just skeptical.

http://www.erowid.org/plants/mimosa/mimosa_chemistry1.shtml

there Just Shipping it as a short cut, seems like a pretty important step to me.
 
I read threw it briefly and it sounds to me like all the nonpolar solvent is collected(with the DMT dissolved in it)
 
In acid base extraction, the Naptha is used to wash all the junk out, leaving the DMT HCL behind. So, here, you are washing the DMT and non-polar plant matter out of very little polar matter. It just seems like Acid BAse has to be far better.
 
Well the acid base is far better, but this one is probably adequate if you're going to do recrystallization subsequently
 
ok, you make a abse solution in teh bark, 1 it rbeaks down teh cell walls to allow faster secretions of the alkaloids contained inside. Two you use the solvant to pull the freebase alkaloids out and then pull taht solvant and evap it down to a level where you can easily freeze/preipt the freebase crystals out.

the otehr way is coverting the already freebase alkaloids to a salt, pulling them, then pretty much doing the SAME thing but instead converting freebas eto a freebase you are converting a salt to freebase.

I realy dont understand how you can have trouble udnerstanding teh process. defatting can be done in freeze rpecipts I posted how in the big and dandy next phase thread. It basicly getting the yellow/brown oil out of teh final product.
 
Ive never heard a Tek explain about the cell walls part. It just seems like you could just do non polar precipitations a bunch of times with out base and do get the same result. But breaking down cell walls could help. I just wanted the chemistry explained, cause Im learning to be a chemist. I still think I could get better results with acid base extraction though...

Also, the freezing , Thawing process breaks down walls, as does the blending. We use blenders all the time to break down cell walls.

(Also Liquid Nitrogen, which is pretty fun to do!)
 
Well why don't you conduct some experiments with certain procedures and share the precent recovery?
 
If you are using Mimosa Hostilis the AcidBase isnt really necessary, you want to use acidbase with plants meterials that have chlorophyll and the like in them since they will dissolve into the solvent as well. By using the acid base you are converting the DMT to a form that is water soluble and then using the nonpolar solvent in order to get rid of the pigments and such (which are nonpolar). however with the rootbark there arnt those pigments to worry about.
 
adrian89987 said:
If you are using Mimosa Hostilis the AcidBase isnt really necessary, you want to use acidbase with plants meterials that have chlorophyll and the like in them since they will dissolve into the solvent as well. By using the acid base you are converting the DMT to a form that is water soluble and then using the nonpolar solvent in order to get rid of the pigments and such (which are nonpolar). however with the rootbark there arnt those pigments to worry about.
Click to expand...

Makes Sense. there are no nonpolar compounds in Bark though? wont that step get rid in all the organic matter that stars behind like cell walls, vesicles, membranes, Junk?
 
Beenhead said:
DMT in M. Hostillis is freebase.
Click to expand...
Are you sure about this? The pKa of DMT is 8.68, so if 99.9% of the DMT present in the root bark is in its unprotonated freebase form the pH of the root bark should be around 11.7. I'm fairly sure that the pH of such plant matter is around 7 which would mean that >95% of the DMT is present in its protonated and thus water-soluble form.

I think this method of extraction using the addition of a base as a first step is used because it's easier than first acidifying and then basing. One should be able to obtain DMT just as pure as that produced by the latter technique. The only difference is really the order of acidification/basification. Using the technique of first acidifying and washing with a non-polar solvent removes the many non-polar plant waxes etc. at that (first) step. The technique of basing first doesn't remove the plant waxes initially, but when the DMT is extracted from the non-polar solvent with an aqueous acidic solution which in turn is washed with a non-polar solvent to remove these plant waxes etc..
 
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Beenhead said:
Makes Sense. there are no nonpolar compounds in Bark though? wont that step get rid in all the organic matter that stars behind like cell walls, vesicles, membranes, Junk?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure. Doesn't seem likely that there would be NONE does it. Perhaps a negligible amount. I really have no idea though. I've never had any problems with nonpolar plant compounds coming through (besides the dmt of course) when using the straight to base. I'm sure that if you used viridis leaves or something you would HAVE to do the AB extraction though. I think that the Base does a lot of work in destroying most parts of the plant cell looking at how you can leave the bark in the base for a long period of time and eventually the bark will not quite be there.

I think this method of extraction using the addition of a base as a first step is used because it's easier than first acidifying and then basing. One should be able to obtain DMT just as pure as that produced by the latter technique. The only difference is really the order of acidification/basification. Using the technique of first acidifying and washing with a non-polar solvent removes the many non-polar plant waxes etc. at that (first) step. The technique of basing first doesn't remove the plant waxes initially, but when the DMT is extracted from the non-polar solvent with an aqueous acidic solution which in turn is washed with a non-polar solvent to remove these plant waxes etc..
Click to expand...

With the straight to base you arnt doing any washing with an acidic solution though. You base it then do the nonpolar solvent pull and then either let the solvent evaporate or do a freeze-precip. I've heard of people doing the defat after the straight to base before though, just that it isn't necessary at all.
 
^ OK, I see. I was comparing it to a mescaline extraction using somewhat the same technique. But since mescaline freebase is an oil one has to do an acidic aqueous extraction of the non-polar in order to obtain a solid compound. I bet you would get cleaner DMT if you did this as well, which you could then follow with a conversion of the salt back into freebase. But if you deem it unnecessary there's certainly no reason to go through the trouble... Although it is a rather tedious task waiting for xylene (which is the non-polar solvent I use most often) to evaporate unless you have a source of vacuum.
 
Yea. Some people prefer the AB though or doing the defat. Ive had worse yields result from doing it instead of the straight to base though (of course most likely a mess up by me). Straight to base I think is just a lot easier to do without worrying about losing much of the DMT at all and with hostilis there isn't much set back at all with the purity of product in my experience.
Beenhead, I'd say try doing both methods of extraction and just see which way suits you best. Tweak with the procedures until you get something that works perfect for you.
 
I believe the rootbark contains the alkaloids in their salted form.
 
as a general rule alkaloids in plants are not present as freebase, they are either as salts, or combined with various phenolic complexes like tannins.

My understanding is that the most important reason for the use of strong base in high concentrations in these 'kwik Teks' is to saponify the fats which otherwise would end up in the non polar extract. the basic solution does also dissolve tannins and polyphenolic compounds and holds them in the aqueous layer.

The technique only works on some extractions because the saponified fats are soaps which can make it really difficult to separate the layers, basic solutions and non polar solvents are notorious for making emulsions which require centrifuging or other trickery to separate.
 
That probably makes a lot more sense than what I said (I was just speculated hah).
Why won't the base only tek work for leaf material? Because it has more of the fats present therefore making it a lot easier for an emulsion to form?
 
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