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Questions Regarding Empathogen/Entactogen Cross-Tolerance with Psychedelics Proper

lamanogaucha

lamanogaucha

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Feb 4, 2012
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Although I've bio-assayed well over two dozen psychedelics, I've never bio-assayed an empathogen/entactogen. I've had 6-APB, MDAI, butylone, ethylone and methylone in cold storage for quite some time and I've been thinking about testing these.

Questions:

1) If a person ingests an average dose of "x" psychedelic (non-NBOMe) on Monday, what would be the nearest day that said person can ingest an average dose of one of the empathogens/entactogens listed above without experiencing cross-tolerance?

2) If a person ingests an average dose of one of the empathogens/entactogens listed above on Monday, what would be the nearest day that said person can ingest an average dose of "x" psychedelic without experiencing cross-tolerance?

3) If a person ingests an average dose of one of the empathogens/entactogens listed above on Monday, what would be the nearest day that said person can ingest another average dose of one of these without experiencing cross-tolerance?

4) Are there any significant differences in cross-tolerance levels between the empathogens/entactogens listed above?

I'm looking forward to your valuable input! Thanks!
 
Since no one responded, I'll consolidate my questions:

* Should I treat cross-tolerance from empathogens/entactogens as if it was cross-tolerance from psychedelics proper?

I typically wait 5-10 days between psychedelic trials.

Thanks.
 
I assume that you meant cross-tolerance from a psychedelic proper toward an empathogen/entactogen, not the other way around, right? If so, what would be the cross-tolerance from an empathogen/entactogen toward a psychedelic proper? Same (i.e. minimal) or more?
 
I can only talk from experience, but a friend of mine often (well, not that often, but still with some regularity) goes on multi-day MDMA binges and right after them she needs a much larger dose to reach equal effects. With responsible use however, there seems to be a small diminishing of effects, but that could also be placebo. In any case you should be fine.
 
Thanks, Kidklmx, but that's not what I was asking. What I need to know is if the empathogens/entactogens above cause cross-tolerance vis-à-vis a proper psychedelic taken a few days later.

In other words...

* If a person takes "x" psychedelic, then said person should wait at least five days before taking "y" psychedelic, this in order to avoid cross-tolerance. I've always done this.

* The above point probably applies to empathogens/entactogens as well. I plan on doing this.

* According to 2002Tii, taking an empathogen/entactogen a small handful of days after a psychedelic should be no problem because there should be minimal if any tolerance caused by the psychedelic. Can someone please corroborate this?

* Last but not least, how long should one wait before taking a psychedelic subsequent to an empathogen/entactogen experience? The same as the third point? More?
 
I think it's dose related & dependent on which 2 drugs you are trying to do.

The best case scenario is you go from a pure serotonin releaser (MDAI or something) and follow it up with a pure 5ht2a agonist (say 25i-nbome). You'll find there's minimal tolerance.
The next best case is something like a moderate MDMA dose followed by the same. You would probably be fine after 3-5 days.

The worst case scenario is you take a heavy dose of a "combination" SRA and agonist, like e.g. MDA or MeODIPT or something. Then you'll probably want to give it a whole week.

* Should I treat cross-tolerance from empathogens/entactogens as if it was cross-tolerance from psychedelics proper?
Click to expand...

For best results, yes. A 7 day washout period is probably smart.
 
Basically you're saying, do shrooms monday and want to know if there will be any empathogenic tolerance on Tueday because you want to do 6-apb and they both affect serotonin.

I would say no. The way they act is different, however doing the empathogen first will cause far more tolerance.
I think though, it may not be as trippy (6-apb, don't know about the other really) because there will be some 5HT2A tolerance. 6-APB still binds to other receptors though, causing other effects.

I would also say then that more time is required between empathogen - psychedelic than the reverse.
 
Bingo! All that information pretty much confirms what I've extrapolated from here and there. Thank you for the input, guys.
 
Like mentioned above, this is going to depend to a certain extent on which drugs. Something like MDA or 6-APB is a bit more psychedelic than mdma, cathinones etc and as such will cause more tolerance to a psychedelic. However still not as much as a proper psychedelic would. And going the other way, a psychedelic proper will cause some tolerance to the "trippy" effects while leaving most of the "rolling" effects alone. 5ht2a agonism & triple monamine release don't really affect each other tolerance wise, IME anyway.

If you want to experience what any drug of either class is truly like, I'd go with at least a two week break just so you know you're starting with a clean slate. Obviously if you're at a music festival or something that isn't possible, but if you're assaying these in a more private & methodical manner, definitely best to wait.

Hope that helps!
 
Thank you for the further information, AMD.

Here's how I've interpreted all of this:

* With MDAI and particularly 6-APB (an MDA analog), there will be very little cross-tolerance coming from a psychedelic; therefore, a 5-7 day break in between will be fine. On the other hand, there will be significant cross-tolerance coming from these two compounds toward a psychedelic; therefore, a 10-14 day break in between would be best.

* With the "bk" compounds, there will be very little cross-tolerance coming from a psychedelic; therefore, a 5-7 day break in between will be fine. Ditto regarding the reverse.

Of course, this is all drug (psychedelic)/dose dependent and one should consider that carefully and then extrapolate/adjust accordingly.

I hope that I got it right!
 
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I think empathogenic action is quite forceful and psychedelic action does not really lead to depletion as much as pervasive and general indirect energetic exhaustion if the trip was particularly long and heavy. Still, 2 days after a well tolerated trip I don't see why empathogens would not work as well.

The other way around seems different and I think this is what you suspected yourself? After empathogen use you can get a bit emotionally bland or zombiefied as a result of monoamine depletion. Even if psychedelic action is not related other than acting on serotonin, I think that if you start a trip feeling a bit 'spent', it is harder to contribute your own 'push' to the trip.
Some psychedelics like mushrooms can be very forceful and they don't need as much contribution but if mushrooms are 'forcing' psychedelic effects on you and you are just not really motivated in general I can see how that is a mismatch. Also there seems to be more potential for mood issues in a similar manner as motivation.

So when it is psychedelic first, empathogen later I would say 1-2 days in between (although a week minimum is always best, if I had the time and patience I would wait a week in between every instance of drug use... but it can be more easily said and done which can be lame and unrealistic ;) ).
When it is empathogen first, psychedelic later, I would say 1 week for the young and resilient people and 2 or more weeks for the slightly burned out folks.

Beta-ketones are often pretty dopaminergic (methylone is more dopaminergic and less psychedelic than MDMA) and 5-HT2a agonism seems more limited indeed.

MDAI might not be psychedelic but it is very serotonergic so I don't agree - maybe depletion could be an issue.
 
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