Questions on Kratom, Martial arts and working out (not roids, but hear me out..)

[Mycophile]

Ok, so I am aware that Kratom is not a steroid and as such maybe this thread is not right for this sub forum but this is obviously the sub forum which has the most knowledge of working out and how different drugs effect workouts and that is why I am posting this here, because I think it will get better answers here than in Other Drugs or somewhere else.

I very much enjoy plain leaf Kratom, in particular Green Malaysian and Bali, and I am a lifelong martial artist who mainly does Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and submission grappling but also cross trains in Muay Thai, boxing, Wrestling and MMA.

I also go the gym frequently but I don't lift heavily upper body because I find it hampers my ability to make low weights for competition and isn't always necessary, but I lift lower body as a form of Physical therapy for multiple ACL tears and I also do lots of cardio on an ARC trainer to lose weight and keep my weight down.

As you also might be aware, Kratom has a VERY long history as a performance enhancing drug in Thailand when it comes to hard physical labor and helping people to cheerfully work long hours in the fields without exhaustion, but then again the challenges of physically labor are not always the same as the challenges of Martial Arts or heavy cardio depending on exactly what that labor involves. (in fact, with it being Thailand's most common recreational drug I suspect their may be some Muay Thai fighters who use it...)


So I am wondering in what ways people who have a knowledge of working out in general and maybe also martial arts and nutrition and drugs may think something like Kratom may either negatively or positively impact work out performance and the health risks or benefits of using it to workout, ESPECIALLY martial arts and whether or not you would recommend using it or staying away from it while working out/training martial arts?

I have already used it doing LIGHT workouts at the gym, mainly cardio and legs, and it helps me quite a bit, but have never tried using it for martial arts and am reluctant to do so and want to know what you guys think about this.


As most of you probably know, there are probably several ways in which Kratom could be considered a PED and I would VERY much think it would be illegal for any MMA of martial arts competition if anyone knew more about it:


POSSIBLE benefits:

1) It is obviously an opioid and a mild pain killer and as such would make people more likely to be able to resist more submission holds and take more punches and kicks while feeling less pain.

For this reason it MIGHT also enable one to lift more and push oneself harder like working out on any opioid and I personally find that I can push myself harder on the ARC trainer by using it. For example, my back and calves were sore the other day but due to not feeling it from Kratom I was able to push myself harder.

2) It can be a stimulant and as such it MAY enhance muscular and cardio output but i'm not sure, and it MAY help with reaction time, but I'm not sure about this either.

3) It also relaxes a person mentally and could help in this way for performance.

4) I know first hand that it is GREAT for dieting because it is a mild appetite suppressant and also has TONS of fiber and there are claims that it is also good for the immune system.

BUT...these same effects could possibly be harmful it seems to me for these reasons:


1) Doing martial arts on an opioid might not be the best idea, ESPECIALLY Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu because body sensitivity is VERY important and pushing yourself harder because something doesn't hurt due to a pain killer could get one hurt. This seems less an issue maybe in LIGHT boxing or Muay Thai sparring and more an issue in HEAVY grappling and heavy striking. However, IMO Kratom isn't as strong a pain killer as something like Percocet so I don't know if something could be REALLY damaging and not hurt due to its use. Those with more experience should weigh in on any SERIOUSLY painful injuries they have been able to ignore due to Kratom.

2) Due to it's mild stimulant nature I am wondering if working out VERY hard on it might put extra strain on the heart, especially since i drink massive amounts of coffee so I'd be on TWO stimulants while working out. It has not seemed an issue with mild cardio but I wonder if it could be doing heavy exercise.

3) Due to it's ocassionally sedating opioid nature I wonder if it could lead to lessened reaction time which could cause injuries in martial arts.

4) I've also heard opioids lower testosterone, but I don't know if this is the case for Kratom.

5) I've also heard that Kratom can somewhat dehydrate people and I think it may increase body temperature so I want to know if this is true and if it could be an issue.


While I'd say immediately that other opioids like Percocet must be bad for working out, Kratom is not that simple and is healthier than many other opioids and is clearly a VERY complex herb with many unique benefits and possibly also unique negative effects for something like working out even though overall for pure recreation it is quite safe.

It is unique in so many ways as it is both an opioid, stimulant and mild depressant.

Any opinions on this would be greatly appreciated.


Remember, I am MOST of all wondering how it might effect me in Martial Arts training.

Thank you.

 

[Voxide]

If it binds to the Mu receptors, you can place a pretty safe bet that it's going to suppress natural LH and testosterone much like demerol and morphine would.

My only gripe with this is that since it's a painkiller, you'd miss vital signals from your body telling you to recover or slow down; basically like what you mentioned in your first point.

Unfortunately for just about everything else you're wondering, there's no way to tell. Crazy, huh? You can find kids on forums up and down praising this stuff to their grave yet there's practically zero studies done on humans regarding if this stuff is even safe to consume or not.

Nubain used to huge in the MMA community and even the bodybuilding one. Granted, that was a real opiate intended to be injected, but with the limited grasp of info we have on this kratom, I'm just gonna have to assume the risks would be the same. Namely addiction is what you should be worried about, because this stuff can cause physical withdrawal symptoms indeed.

 

[Serotonin101]

Personally I find any pain killing drug to be counter productive to this sport. I get why it'd be popular or used but it woukd interfere with one's personal safety. Also I find that lifting while intoxicating to be possibly dangerous. I do my best to even avoid stims, these days it may be a single caffeine pill of 200mg caffeine that's it. I've only dabbled with it a bit and may have used higher doses than what you desire to but it definitely lowered reaction time, affected my balance and coordination, interfered with mental clarity, all of which is needed for both gym training and your martial arts training. I essentially felt mildly drunk, nausea included.

 

[Mycophile]

If it binds to the Mu receptors, you can place a pretty safe bet that it's going to suppress natural LH and testosterone much like demerol and morphine would.

My only gripe with this is that since it's a painkiller, you'd miss vital signals from your body telling you to recover or slow down; basically like what you mentioned in your first point.

Unfortunately for just about everything else you're wondering, there's no way to tell. Crazy, huh? You can find kids on forums up and down praising this stuff to their grave yet there's practically zero studies done on humans regarding if this stuff is even safe to consume or not.

Nubain used to huge in the MMA community and even the bodybuilding one. Granted, that was a real opiate intended to be injected, but with the limited grasp of info we have on this kratom, I'm just gonna have to assume the risks would be the same. Namely addiction is what you should be worried about, because this stuff can cause physical withdrawal symptoms indeed.

I get you on most of what you are saying, but as far as safety of eating it and NOT doing heavy exercise, despite lack of 1st world studies there are a number of Pubmed articles on Kratom that admit that there have been hardly any fatalities from eating plain leaf Kratom and that their are very few known serious safety concerns.

It has been consumed in Thailand for centuries without reports of any really serious adverse effects or fatalities either and from how my own body responds to it I believe Kratom consumption to be fairly safe overall.

Also, what exactly happens when LH and testosterone are suppressed in terms of making one less effective in martial arts training or exercise??

And what is LH?

I've never heard that abbreviation before.

But how does having slightly lower testosterone effect one negatively, like does it make it harder to recover from injuries??

And how much would one have to use Kratom to lower one's testosterone to a dangerous level and how long would one have to abstain for it to come back??

Kratom is probably not as harmful as demerol and morphine I would think, seeing as it is not synthetic.

As far as addiction, I have worked out a schedule which has allowed me to avoid any withdrawal symptoms thus far.

 

[Mycophile]

Personally I find any pain killing drug to be counter productive to this sport. I get why it'd be popular or used but it woukd interfere with one's personal safety. Also I find that lifting while intoxicating to be possibly dangerous. I do my best to even avoid stims, these days it may be a single caffeine pill of 200mg caffeine that's it. I've only dabbled with it a bit and may have used higher doses than what you desire to but it definitely lowered reaction time, affected my balance and coordination, interfered with mental clarity, all of which is needed for both gym training and your martial arts training. I essentially felt mildly drunk, nausea included.

As far as "it" did you mean that you took Kratom while doing martial arts training?

I also found your choice of the word "intoxication" interesting, since I don't really find Kratom to be "intoxicating" perse, at least not plain leaf, but nevertheless, your point is understood and it certainly is stimulating for me.

I'd still like to hear a little more science in terms of what might be happening in one's body if they were to work out on Kratom, but also SERIOUSLY dumbed down so someone with no scientific knowledge, like me, can understand it lol.

I'm most likely going to avoid using Kratom while doing martial arts though, but I enjoy it recreationally or while doing light cardio.

 

[《Plasticity》]

I don't find kratom intoxicating at all, in fact it only increases my focus and reaction time. I'm not a bodybuilder nor am I looking to bulk up so the testosterone issues mean very little to me... at the end of the day I enter class with more energy and drive than I would otherwise. I've been a daily user for years, I've also been doing martial arts for years (mainly muay thai, BJJ, and a bit of wrestling). I use it every time I train whether it be sparring or hitting mits with great success. The thing is kratom is rather mild, so the issues about overworking or taking too much damage unknowingly are not an issue. If you are a person who finds kratom strongly analgesic just dose less... kratom functions more like a mild stimulant at low doses which is probably what you want out of it anyways.

In regards to BP, while it is certainly a noradrenaline releaser it also contains alkaloids like rhynchophylline and mitraphylline, alkaloids that function as vasodilators, calcium channel blockers, and overall have antihypertensive properties which arguably balance it out. Not only have I not gotten sick once sick once since I started taking kratom, something frequently reported, but my systolic blood pressure dropped by 10 mmHg within the first year of taking it with regularity. Whether it was a direct result of the kratom or just my diet is meaningless, I can however say that kratom hasn't caused any abnormally sharp spikes in blood pressure whether it be resting or during exercise. (I have cardiac issues so I always monitor my BP. Even before, during, and after any home workouts)

Now I don't want to paint this as kratom being harmless and I'm certainly biased being that I've benefited greatly from kratom, so much so that I gladly sold my soul to the plant (so to speak). It is still a mild opioid and with that comes the risk of addiction and dependency. With that aside, as a martial artist and kratom user I find it hard to find any significant downfalls using it strictly as a "PED". It increases my focus, improves cardio, and overall increases my drive while having little if any impact on my body physically.

Kratom's moderate analgesic properties are not strong enough (for most at least, even then like I stated previously that's a dose issue. Dose less, problem solved) to cause you to push past your limits but also strong enough to help you get through with your sparring session (or whatever drills it may be). I know this sounds like a very biased post, that's because it is. If you find success with something you're not gonna go around talking shit about it. There are certainly downsides to kratom with the risk of developing a habit or using it as a coping mechanism, but strictly speaking on kratom use in martial arts, I find it nothing but beneficial... as with anything your mileage may vary though.

Here's a list of known alkaloids in kratom, I urge you to take a look before lumping it in with straightforward mu agonists like hyrocodone or oxycodone. Kratom is a very complex plant, certainly not your typical opioid that's for sure.

NSFW:

Ajmalicine(Raubasine): Cerebrocirculant, antiaggregant, anti-adrenergic (at alpha-1), sedative, anticonvulsant, smooth muscle relaxer. Also found inRauwolfia serpentina.

Akuammigine

Ciliaphylline:antitussive, analgesic.< 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Corynantheidine: μ -opioid antagonist, also found in Yohimbe.< 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Corynoxeine: Calcium channel blocker.< 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

CorynoxineA and B: Dopamine mediating anti-locomotives.< 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Epicatechin: Antioxidant, antiaggregant, antibacterial, antidiabetic,
antihepatitic, anti-inflammatory, anti-leukemic, antimutagenic, antiperoxidant,
antiviral, potential cancer preventative, alpha-amylase inhibitor. Also found in dark chocolate.

9-Hydroxycorynantheidine: Partial opioid agonist

7-hydroxymitragynine:Analgesic, antitussive, antidiarrheal; primary
psychoactive in Kratom, Roughly 2%of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Isomitraphylline: Immunostimulant, anti-leukemic.< 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Isomitrafoline:< 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Isopteropodine:Immunostimulant

Isorhynchophylline: Immunostimulant.< 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Isospeciofoline: < 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Mitraciliatine:< 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Mitragynine:Indole alkaloid. Analgesic, antitussive, antidiarrheal, adrenergic, antimalarial,
possible psychedelic (5-HT2A) antagonist. Roughly 66%of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Mitragynineoxindole B. < 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Mitrafoline:< 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Mitraphylline: Oxindole alkaloid. Vasodilator, antihypertensive, muscle relaxer, diuretic, antiamnesic, anti-leukemic, possible immunostimulant. <1% of total alkaloid contents in Kratom leaf.

Mitraversine

Paynantheine: Indole alkaloid. Smooth muscle relaxer.8.6% to 9% of total alkaloid contents in Kratom leaf.

Rhynchophylline: Vasodilator, antihypertensive, calcium channel blocker,
antiaggregant, anti-inflammatory, antipyretic, anti-arrhythmic, antithelmintic.< 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Speciociliatine: Weak opioid agonist.0.8% to 1% of total alkaloid content of Kratom leaf, unique to Kratom.

Speciofoline

Speciogynine: Smooth muscle relaxer.6.6% to 7% of total alkaloid contents of Kratom leaf.

Speciophylline: Indole alkaloid. Anti-leukemic. <1%of total alkaloid contents of Kratom leaf.

Stipulatine

Tetrahydroalstonine: Hypoglycemic, anti-adrenergic (at alpha-2)

 

[Mycophile]

^^^^^^^

Thanks for the info Plasticity.

Couple more questions:

So when training, specifically BJJ, have you found your reaction time to be as sharp as without (assuming you have trained without before since I think you are a daily user)??

And I gather from what you are saying that you don't think training on it would come with the same cardiac risks as training out very heavily on a mild amphetamine like Dexadrine or Adderall for example?

My grandfather was a doctor and he once advised against doing BJJ on dexedrine (cause he prescribed it sometimes for my family) as a cardiac risk but what evidence do you have that Kratom is less dangerous for the heart, other than your anecdotal experience of course??

And do you know if Kratom dehydrates people or raises body temperature?

Do you find yourself sweating excessively MORE than you think you would without Kratom and needing to drink more fluids when training on Kratom and do you know if it has any effect on things like Potassium and Electrolyte balance??

And do you know if Kratom does lower testosterone, or at least, do you have any theories on the subject?

Since I am also not a big weight lifter I am not sure how much a very slight deduction in testosterone would matter to my training, and it seems kind of hard to believe it would have a huge effect on something like that.

But even despite your being somewhat biased, I too kind of find it hard to imagine Kratom being really too harmful one way or the other towards training.

I don't think I would want to go fight on it, and I'm not even sure I'd venture to do a BJJ tournament on it, but it doesn't seem to have a really intense effect on my body that I am really aware of and doesn't seem like it would greatly interfere with daily training.

It seems to me kind of like how some people workout on weed, probably not overly dangerous.

I'm still not sure if I'll ever go train on it though, maybe one of these days I'll give it a shot but so far I've just used it while doing light cardio. I'd probably first try out hitting pads on it rather than rolling or sparring.

An EXTRACT on the other hand I think would probably be a very bad idea to train on, but that's a whole other ball of wax...

 

[《Plasticity》]

Oh myco, you're always a man of many questions. In order of your questions...

1) I have trained sober many times, I've had many months of clean time during my affair with kratom. I can say without a doubt during my clean time I'm duller and not as sharp as I am when on kratom.

2) I've never had any issues with dehydration whatsoever, I cannot speak for everyone else. I can assure you though that kratom is not overly dehydrating to the point that a couple gulps of water won't be sufficient. Kratom can certainly increase body temperature though, well at least perceived body temp. I've never actually taken my temperature but with high doses I may feel a bit hotter and sweaty than usual.

3) Sure, I sweat a bit more but nothing extreme. I ride BMX at a competitive level and I whip my bike around for many (anywhere from 2-5) hours without a single worry of dehydration... just drink water, it's really that simple. Not sure about it's effects on electrolytes. Kratom is a mild diuretic so it may have some impact on electrolyte levels. As someone who is very fit and active I've never come close to dehydration and I've dosed multiple times a day for about 5 years now.

4) Opioids lower testosterone levels, this info is widely known and I'm sure you won't have any issues finding studies to back it up. Being that kratom is a mu agonist it is no exception. Testosterone levels do return to normal after opioid use is ceased. I'm pretty sure this is hardly an issue in those using kratom infrequently though, someone feel free to chime in on that.

As someone who occasionally trains BJJ on low doses of cannabis I can easily say that kratom is better suited for training. For me cannabis only provides mental benefits like creativity at the expense of cardio whereas kratom, IME, replaces the creativity with focus and drive while also being beneficial to the physical aspects of training. I personally would rather compete in any MA tournaments on a low to moderate dose of kratom than sober. In fact I too think that if it were more widely known it would be banned from events that drug test.

I guess I just want to point out that the reason I'm biased in the the first place is because my experiences with kratom have only been beneficial, you can alternatively consider it testimony. For instance you have experienced kratom's anxiolysis and antidepressant properties first hand, if you were to then reccommend kratom somebody suffering from anxiety and depression, technically you would be just as biased as me.

 

[Serotonin101]

As far as "it" did you mean that you took Kratom while doing martial arts training?

I also found your choice of the word "intoxication" interesting, since I don't really find Kratom to be "intoxicating" perse, at least not plain leaf, but nevertheless, your point is understood and it certainly is stimulating for me.

I'd still like to hear a little more science in terms of what might be happening in one's body if they were to work out on Kratom, but also SERIOUSLY dumbed down so someone with no scientific knowledge, like me, can understand it lol.

I'm most likely going to avoid using Kratom while doing martial arts though, but I enjoy it recreationally or while doing light cardio.

I don't participate in any form of martial art so my experience was only in passing to see what it was like. I have no idea about what different strands can be like as I only had a sample pack from a company which had 2 strands I forget the names of. For me, using it felt like tramadol almost. Mentally I felt sedated and physically I felt off but I was far from nodding. I've used a wide range of painkillers both legal pharma drugs and street drugs, so I have a lot to compare it to. It felt like standard mu agonist with a hint of maybe snri properties like tramadol, mildly stimulated but mentally foggy. That's the only way I can describe it. Again doses and strain are unknown as its been some time.

 

[Voxide]

I get you on most of what you are saying, but as far as safety of eating it and NOT doing heavy exercise, despite lack of 1st world studies there are a number of Pubmed articles on Kratom that admit that there have been hardly any fatalities from eating plain leaf Kratom and that their are very few known serious safety concerns.

It has been consumed in Thailand for centuries without reports of any really serious adverse effects or fatalities either and from how my own body responds to it I believe Kratom consumption to be fairly safe overall.

Also, what exactly happens when LH and testosterone are suppressed in terms of making one less effective in martial arts training or exercise??

And what is LH?

I've never heard that abbreviation before.

But how does having slightly lower testosterone effect one negatively, like does it make it harder to recover from injuries??

And how much would one have to use Kratom to lower one's testosterone to a dangerous level and how long would one have to abstain for it to come back??

Kratom is probably not as harmful as demerol and morphine I would think, seeing as it is not synthetic.

As far as addiction, I have worked out a schedule which has allowed me to avoid any withdrawal symptoms thus far.

LH is luteinizing hormone, which initiates the pathway to produce natural testosterone by the Leydig cells. How badly low testosterone effects you really depends on your goals and what you're hoping to gain from MMA. As far as the extent to which it does so, I would speculate that it does so in a dose dependent manner similar to regular opiates.

As was already stated, Kratom has a number of alkaloids, not just mu agonists. In fact, this is what makes it even more unpredictable in regards to training on it since you'd literally have to find info on all those compunds rather than just one. Would I take this stuff regularly? No. Then again my drug and alcohol use is practically nil other than the occasional prescribed benzodiazepine, But your goals are obviously much different and less dependent on on the things you decide to ingest. I don't see it as particularly harmful either, but like I said, one can only speculate since there isn't much research on this stuff yet. Whatever you do, don't try to justify it by stating it makes you better at fighting and helps recovery somehow. We don't need the nubain fiasco all over again.

 

[Drew.]

Hey! I'll answer a question that you asked involving extreme long periods of labor whilst on kratom... In short it can SAVE MY DAY when I have no motive or ambition to lift heavy weighted boxes out of a 50-footer for hours on end. I can definitely relate to how much less excruciating physical activity becomes while on kratom.
PLUS, it boosts me in a way that pushes me to work harder, faster and stronger!
For example I will begin to stack boxes atop one arm or double stacking before delivering them, doubling or sometimes tripling the weight of what I thought was near max capacity for me.
It feels great, my muscles work harder, and I eat like a PIG afterwards (I do not tend to eat anything before I work. Only halfway through the shift when we're done unloading do I eat food.)
I did not know that opiates lower tesosterone however so perhaps if one wanted to get really ripped, one may not want to dose kratom like crazy every day for workouts.
I'm not going to lie, I do it, though.

Also drug screening! Keep in mind using kratom will make you test positive for opioids. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I like to use kratom + coffee together, very synergistic but VERY dehydrating for me. I just make sure to drink and piss lots during use of it.

 

[《Plasticity》]

Also drug screening! Keep in mind using kratom will make you test positive for opioids. Correct me if I'm wrong

Thankfully that's not the case.

 

[Mycophile]

LH is luteinizing hormone, which initiates the pathway to produce natural testosterone by the Leydig cells. How badly low testosterone effects you really depends on your goals and what you're hoping to gain from MMA. As far as the extent to which it does so, I would speculate that it does so in a dose dependent manner similar to regular opiates.

As was already stated, Kratom has a number of alkaloids, not just mu agonists. In fact, this is what makes it even more unpredictable in regards to training on it since you'd literally have to find info on all those compunds rather than just one. Would I take this stuff regularly? No. Then again my drug and alcohol use is practically nil other than the occasional prescribed benzodiazepine, But your goals are obviously much different and less dependent on on the things you decide to ingest. I don't see it as particularly harmful either, but like I said, one can only speculate since there isn't much research on this stuff yet. Whatever you do, don't try to justify it by stating it makes you better at fighting and helps recovery somehow. We don't need the nubain fiasco all over again.

I don't feel the need to "justify" it in any way or for any reason.

I enjoy using it recreationally 3 times a week and there are a number of things it helps me with like anxiety and giving me energy etc, but I don't feel a need to "justify" it for these reasons because IMO whatever drug a person wants to use should be their own right.

Hell, I am actually for the legalization of any and all drugs, even the hardest of substances, for 18 and over so long as one isn't behind the wheel of a car, not to mention that Kratom is legal already, but again, I dont' feel "justification" is a word I normally use when discussing substances.

However, I really don't know whether or not Kratom helps with injury recovery or enhances one's ability to fight better.

It's possible that it might actually do both, and if so then I would probably use it at least for injury recovery.

I don't actually know what the nubain fiasco is at all though.

Would you mind explaining it to me??

And as far as the testosterone issue, IF Kratom does lower testosterone, HOW would you imagine it effecting a person in martial arts training??

Like, would they be slower, or get tired more easily, or weaker, or what??

 

[Mycophile]

Oh myco, you're always a man of many questions. In order of your questions...

1) I have trained sober many times, I've had many months of clean time during my affair with kratom. I can say without a doubt during my clean time I'm duller and not as sharp as I am when on kratom.

2) I've never had any issues with dehydration whatsoever, I cannot speak for everyone else. I can assure you though that kratom is not overly dehydrating to the point that a couple gulps of water won't be sufficient. Kratom can certainly increase body temperature though, well at least perceived body temp. I've never actually taken my temperature but with high doses I may feel a bit hotter and sweaty than usual.

3) Sure, I sweat a bit more but nothing extreme. I ride BMX at a competitive level and I whip my bike around for many (anywhere from 2-5) hours without a single worry of dehydration... just drink water, it's really that simple. Not sure about it's effects on electrolytes. Kratom is a mild diuretic so it may have some impact on electrolyte levels. As someone who is very fit and active I've never come close to dehydration and I've dosed multiple times a day for about 5 years now.

4) Opioids lower testosterone levels, this info is widely known and I'm sure you won't have any issues finding studies to back it up. Being that kratom is a mu agonist it is no exception. Testosterone levels do return to normal after opioid use is ceased. I'm pretty sure this is hardly an issue in those using kratom infrequently though, someone feel free to chime in on that.

As someone who occasionally trains BJJ on low doses of cannabis I can easily say that kratom is better suited for training. For me cannabis only provides mental benefits like creativity at the expense of cardio whereas kratom, IME, replaces the creativity with focus and drive while also being beneficial to the physical aspects of training. I personally would rather compete in any MA tournaments on a low to moderate dose of kratom than sober. In fact I too think that if it were more widely known it would be banned from events that drug test.

I guess I just want to point out that the reason I'm biased in the the first place is because my experiences with kratom have only been beneficial, you can alternatively consider it testimony. For instance you have experienced kratom's anxiolysis and antidepressant properties first hand, if you were to then reccommend kratom somebody suffering from anxiety and depression, technically you would be just as biased as me.

Thanks man.

However, there is just one part of my post that you didn't address so if you could please answer this I'd appreciate it:


And I gather from what you are saying that you don't think training on it would come with the same cardiac risks as training out very heavily on a mild amphetamine like Dexadrine or Adderall for example?

My grandfather was a doctor and he once advised against doing BJJ on dexedrine (cause he prescribed it sometimes for my family) as a cardiac risk but what evidence do you have that Kratom is less dangerous for the heart, other than your anecdotal experience of course??

 

[Voxide]

I don't feel the need to "justify" it in any way or for any reason.

I enjoy using it recreationally 3 times a week and there are a number of things it helps me with like anxiety and giving me energy etc, but I don't feel a need to "justify" it for these reasons because IMO whatever drug a person wants to use should be their own right.

Hell, I am actually for the legalization of any and all drugs, even the hardest of substances, for 18 and over so long as one isn't behind the wheel of a car, not to mention that Kratom is legal already, but again, I dont' feel "justification" is a word I normally use when discussing substances.

That's great, Noam Chomsky, but I could really care less about your moral opinions on drugs. All I'm saying is don't go overboard on the shit and then claim it's okay because it's helping you fight.
However, I really don't know whether or not Kratom helps with injury recovery or enhances one's ability to fight better.
It does neither. It's going to slow your reaction time and dull pain of injuries before it's too late to lay off the affected area.
It's possible that it might actually do both, and if so then I would probably use it at least for injury recovery.

I don't actually know what the nubain fiasco is at all though.

Would you mind explaining it to me??
I would mind, because I think you're perfectly capable of doing some reading and educating yourself rather than me having to spoon feed it to you. Reading about this is something you should definitely do because it may apply to you.

And as far as the testosterone issue, IF Kratom does lower testosterone, HOW would you imagine it effecting a person in martial arts training??

Like, would they be slower, or get tired more easily, or weaker, or what??

There is no if. Seeing as how it binds to mu receptors and is 17x stronger than morphine, how does it not make sense to infer that it will also decrease testosterone? You're just deluding yourself. I really can't tell if you're being serious or not asking this question. It would literally effect everything. If it didn't, then women would be able to fight against men in the ring fair and square and fighters that took steroids wouldn't be banned. Use some common sense. Testosterone will make you faster, stronger, able to recover better from injury and workouts, everything that could possibly benefit an athlete; though I'm not expecting much common sense from someone who can't bother to run a google search.

Do whatever you wanna do, cause it seems like whatever anyone says you're just gonna keep taking it regardless. Not that I care, because if you're just sparring against other weekend warriors at some gym then it doesn't seem like the performance decrease will be all that significant anyway.

Remember, you wisely asked here because this sub has at least a little more knowledge than the rest of this site on diet and training; which would lead me to believe you want the truth and not just some reassurance.

what evidence do you have that Kratom is less dangerous for the heart, other than your anecdotal experience of course??[/COLOR]

He doesn't. That's exactly the point. With the sheer number of active alkaloids we're looking at, literally anything could be possible.

 

[Mycophile]

There is no if. Seeing as how it binds to mu receptors and is 17x stronger than morphine, how does it not make sense to infer that it will also decrease testosterone? You're just deluding yourself. I really can't tell if you're being serious or not asking this question. It would literally effect everything. If it didn't, then women would be able to fight against men in the ring fair and square and fighters that took steroids wouldn't be banned. Use some common sense. Testosterone will make you faster, stronger, able to recover better from injury and workouts, everything that could possibly benefit an athlete; though I'm not expecting much common sense from someone who can't bother to run a google search.

Do whatever you wanna do, cause it seems like whatever anyone says you're just gonna keep taking it regardless. Not that I care, because if you're just sparring against other weekend warriors at some gym then it doesn't seem like the performance decrease will be all that significant anyway.

Remember, you wisely asked here because this sub has at least a little more knowledge than the rest of this site on diet and training; which would lead me to believe you want the truth and not just some reassurance.


He doesn't. That's exactly the point. With the sheer number of active alkaloids we're looking at, literally anything could be possible.

Ok WHOA...now you are really being kind of an asshole, and I really don't understand why, seeing as I didn't do anything to incite you.

What the hell does this comment even mean??



"That's great, Noam Chomsky, but I could really care less about your moral opinions on drugs. All I'm saying is don't go overboard on the shit and then claim it's okay because it's helping you fight."

First off, I could care less that you care less about my moral opinions on drugs but you seemed to be getting into questions of "right or wrong" regarding a substance which is why I responded that way.


What do you even mean by "claiming it's ok"??

Ok for WHAT??

Ok to train on?

That would depend on whether or not you find it helps you or hurts you or is safe or unsafe.

Ok in the sense that it didn't result in damaging myself?

Well...if it didn't then that would lean towards me believing that it's more likely to be safe, but I'd never be dumb enough to claim that my ancedotal experience proves anything for everyone.


Ok in the "moral sense"?

THAT is why I answered the way I did, because I thought you were asking a moral question, but if you aren't then forget I said that.

Fair enough that you "would mind" explaining the nubain fiasco, but it kind of proves you are a bit of an asshole that you have to give me an attitude about it.

How about instead saying "it's a long story and I don't feel like writing it all down now so why don't you look it up yourself?" rather than acting like a holier than thou piece of shit??

As far as Kratom being "17 times stronger than Morphine" where did you get that information?

I know for a fact that Kratom is not NEARLY as intense a high nor does it have nearly the pain killing effects of Morphine so I tend to doubt this is correct.

If it is correct, then I stand corrected.

You still don't seem to have any knowledge as to how much or how quickly Kratom use could or would deplete testosterone or how much use would result in it's decrease or how long one would have to abstain for one's test levels to recover.

You also have admitted to never having tried Kratom yourself and you clearly know next to nothing about the substance and have some kind of moral high horse stance against it and probably other recreational substances so you can fuck right off when it comes to that shit.

And yes, I was serious about it because I don't know much about testosterone and exactly what it does for workout performance because this is not something I study even though I understand that it is something you are serious about, so good for you.

And what a fucking assholish thing to say "I'm not expecting much common sense from someone who can't bother to run a google search".

Well, you know, SOMETIMES there are actually friendly people who if they AREN'T too busy and AREN'T an asshole and happen to know how to answer a question quickly or succinctly they MIGHT choose to actually go above and beyond and explain a concept to someone even despite the fact that the knowledge can be learned through google *GASP*!!!!

That by no means means you HAVE to, but at the very least you don't have to be a rude bitch about it which is something I generally try not to do because, you know, it makes you an asshole and I prefer not to act like an asshole.

I will "keep taking it regardless of what anyone says" so long as I know of no serious dangers posed by the drug, but if I find out that it can negatively effect my workouts then I'll be sure not to use it while working out and to abstain further out from a competition.

Why should I be influenced to stop taking something I enjoy by someone who actually seems to know relatively little about the substance itself and hasn't given me any real concrete reasons as to why it is an unhealthy substance other than that it can lower testosterone but without ANY info on whether or not it greatly decreases it or only minorly effects it, or how much usage decreases it or likewise how long abstainance from it can help it the test to come back?

The comment on "weekend warriors" seemed to be somekind of a passive aggressive stab at me as if to say that I must not be a very serious athlete or martial artist, but in actuality I have been committed to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for 20 years, am a brown belt getting close to black as well as a brown belt in Karate, train with professional fighters, have competed in 34 tournaments several of which I have taken Gold in and been through 3 ACL surgeries due to my committment, and will soon be making my Amateur MMA debut and have probably spent more time training in Martial Arts then you have in your sport of choice.

And finally...I am NOT looking for "reasurrance" but for all the extra knowledge this sub forum "supposedly" has the only new information you have given me so far is what LH is and it seems you know LESS about Kratom than those who post in the Other Drugs section so I now realize I'd have been better off posting there in the first place.

Whether or not you personally approve of recreational drug use, Kratom or otherwise, is of no importance to me, and if for some bizzare reason I want to claim "Kratom use is *OKAY*" (whatever the fuck that even means) then I will do so, regardless of your warnings.

I was warned that the steroid forum tends to be "against all recreational drug use" so I should have known better and that is my fault.

Nothing that I said at any point was impolite towards you or in any way should have incited the incredibly cocky and self righteous post you just wrote me.

We all choose to put into our bodies what we think serves us best for whatever reason but what I CAN'T stand is when someone gets all preachy on me about what I put in mine.

I will not be posting in this sub forum again, which won't be hard considering I'd never want to use a PED and end up winning a fight or match and having to wonder how much of my performance came from the drug and how much came from myself...which is the same reason I'd never compete on Kratom either, so there's not much to be learned from bunch of guys talking about which PEDs they themselves choose to indulge in.

Good day.

 

[CfZrx]

Kratom is 2X as potent as green tea

 

[CFC]

Thanks man.

However, there is just one part of my post that you didn't address so if you could please answer this I'd appreciate it:


And I gather from what you are saying that you don't think training on it would come with the same cardiac risks as training out very heavily on a mild amphetamine like Dexadrine or Adderall for example?

My grandfather was a doctor and he once advised against doing BJJ on dexedrine (cause he prescribed it sometimes for my family) as a cardiac risk but what evidence do you have that Kratom is less dangerous for the heart, other than your anecdotal experience of course??

I would doubt it has a similar cardiac risk profile to typical stimulants, although I haven't found anything specifically discussing Kratom and myocytes in the past. It may have some direct cardiovascular effects. A Google scholar search might bring some research up - I'm unable to do it for you at the moment as I have no access to a computer. Your coffee is probably worse in terms of effects on blood pressure and pulse rate. I would suggest if you are seeking empirical proof of a poorly understood substance, take a BP monitor to a session and gague your BP and pulse rate with and without the Kratom. That would seem to me to be a less speculative way of understanding how it affects you.

FWIW mild amphetamines taken at typically prescribed doses are not spectacularly bad from a cardiovascular point of view unless you have a preexisting heart condition or use them alongside other PEDs. That's doesn't mean to say you should take them if health is a major concern, however. That's probably the same approach I'd take with Kratom - but at the end of the day that's your decision to make.

 

[Voxide]

Ok WHOA...now you are really being kind of an asshole, and I really don't understand why, seeing as I didn't do anything to incite you.

What the hell does this comment even mean??



"That's great, Noam Chomsky, but I could really care less about your moral opinions on drugs. All I'm saying is don't go overboard on the shit and then claim it's okay because it's helping you fight."

First off, I could care less that you care less about my moral opinions on drugs but you seemed to be getting into questions of "right or wrong" regarding a substance which is why I responded that way.


What do you even mean by "claiming it's ok"??

Ok for WHAT??

Ok to train on?

That would depend on whether or not you find it helps you or hurts you or is safe or unsafe.

Ok in the sense that it didn't result in damaging myself?

Well...if it didn't then that would lean towards me believing that it's more likely to be safe, but I'd never be dumb enough to claim that my ancedotal experience proves anything for everyone.

Only read what I quoted until I became sick of your butthurt ramblings. Christ, you sound like a girl. Also, lol at you actually Pm'ing me about how you're not going to post here anymore. I'm actually quite glad since you don't seem to care what knowledgeable members have to say on taking a mystery drug for an extended period of time and thinking you'll get answers to obscure hormone related questions. You are totally right, you should have known better. Now be gone, and go cry to some 150lb 15% bodyfat betas about how the mean weightlifters made fun of you for being stupid.

Idgaf about recreational drug use. I don't think it's morally deplorable or anything although I do think it's pretty stupid and especially the way you're going about it. And the funny thing is that I'm not even blaming the drug, I'm blaming the person using it which is what all you harm reduction people seem to hold so tightly to. I'm pretty sure that even if I showed you supporting evidence (there is none) you'd still wanna go on using this shit. You're a lost cause. I knew it right after you responded to my first post. There's actually been a number of anecdotal reports of people straight up going jaundiced after just a couple doses of this crap, so no, I definitely wouldn't say it's 'safer' than any pharma opiate like you claim to think.

 

[Serotonin101]

^^^it's people just wanting the go ahead from others to continue their ideas so they don't have to accept responsibility if things go wrong. I'm all for people making the choices of what they put in their bodies, a simple "you're right, it's probably a bad decision but I'm going to carry on anyway" when others give their experience and research against your decision can go a long way.