Benzos questions about klonopin,rohypnol and benzo tolerance

[Morphinator]

^ It's no use Ham-milton, I've been trying to explain this klowns, but he's convinced clonazepam is the "king" of benzo-dom!

It's not even that clonazepam is rarely used as an anticonvulsant (I think its use as such is not too rare), but when it is used, it's used orally to help people who are prone to seizures prevent them and reduce their frequency. Still, it's often used only short-term because tolerance to its anticonvulsant effects develop rapidly and after a while it's basically useless as an anticonvulsant.

Lorazepam is the most commonly used benzo for epileptic seizures not because it is the strongest anticonvulsant, but for various other reasons that make its use more convenient for clinicians and the patients (unless patient is allergic or too sensitive to lorazepam). Diazepam is actually a stronger anticonvulsant than lorazepam is, it's also highly lipid soluble and so is quickly absorbed via any route of administration - but because of that it doesn't stay in the vascular space and it gets redistributed into other body tissues, meaning: repeat dosing on diazepam would be required to maintain anticonvulsive action. With lorazepam, it's the complete opposite - it doesn't get redistrubted outside the vascular space.

Midazolam is a very powerful anticonvulsant and is occasionally used to treat status epilepticus, but it's too short-acting and, as a hypnotic, way too sedating and problems with memory are an issue.

None of that means that any of them are stronger anticonvulsants than nitrazepam, temazepam, and most definitely not nimetazepam (which is supposed to be the strongest anticonvulsant benzo). The 3 have all been used to manage seizures - but very rarely. Nitrazepam has been used to manage seizures in children and to manage refractory epilepsies, and a study on infantile spasm (west syndrome) treatments is already out there that proves nitrazepam as a stronger and more effective anticonvulsant than clonazepam, regardless of that, clonazepam is much more commonly used to treat infantile spasms because nitrazepam. Temazepam has been used to manage refractory epilepsies ("refractory" means if a person's epilepsy cannot be brought under control after adequate trials of two or three different drugs) and myoclonic seizures.

However, neither nitrazepam nor temazepam are hardly ever used as such, despite being very powerful and effective anticonvulsants because not only is long term prophylactic treatment of epilepsy with benzos basically futile (tolerance develops very quickly), but the side effects of nitraz and temaz can be overwhelming, and not just the immediate effects of strong sedation, amnesia, slurred speech, motor function impairment, often high levels of confusion, and ataxia. Long-term use of temazepam and nitrazepam is very dangerous, I hate to admit it.

Studies have actually shown that nitrazepam and temazepam are carcinogenic and both drugs have been found to be both photogenotoxic and photocytotoxic. They are also are both teratogenic, especially temazepam (which is listed in Pregnancy Category X). Temazepam and nitrazepam possesses both embryotoxicity and teratogenicity toxicities in vivo.

Because temazepams abuse is so common and widespread, withdrawal from it is well documented.

Six psychotic states developing after abrupt withdrawal from temazepam and 2 psychotic states developing after abrupt withdrawal from nitrazepam including delirium from doses of just 30 mg of temazepam and 20 mg nitrazepam, and in another case auditory hallucinations and visual cognitive disorder developed after abrupt withdrawal from 10 mg of temazepam, 5 mg of nitrazepam, and 0.5 mg of triazolam. Gradual and careful reduction of the dosage, preferably with a milder long-acting benzodiazepine such as clonazepam or diazepam, or even a milder short to intermediate acting benzodiazepine such as oxazepam or alprazolam, was recommended to prevent severe withdrawal syndromes from developing. Depersonalisation has also been a well documented benzodiazepine withdrawal effect from temazepam and nitrazepam.

Abrupt withdrawal from very high doses is even more likely to cause severe withdrawal effects. Withdrawal from very high doses of temazepam will cause severe hypoperfusion of the whole brain with diffuse slow activity on EEG. After withdrawal, abnormalities in hypofrontal brain wave patterns may persist beyond the withdrawal syndrome suggesting that organic brain damage may occur from chronic high dose abuse of temazepam. Temazepam withdrawal has been well known to cause a sudden and often violent death.

SOURCES:

Hindmarch I (Nov 1977). "A repeated dose comparison of three benzodiazepine derivative (nitrazepam, temazepam and flunitrazepam) on subjective appraisals of sleep and measures of psychomotor performance the morning following night-time medication". Acta Psychiatr Scand 56 (5): 373-81.

Viukari M; Linnoila M, Aalto U (Jan 1978). "Efficacy and side effects of flurazepam, temazepam, and nitrazepam as sleeping aids in psychogeriatric patients". Acta Psychiatr Scand 57 (1): 27-35.

Terao T, Tani Y (1988). "[Six cases of psychotic state following normal-dose temazepam withdrawal and two cases of psychotic state following normal-dose nitrazepam withdrawal]" (in Japanese). J. UOEH 10 (3): 337–40.

Terao T, Yoshimura R, Terao M, Abe K (1992). "Depersonalization following temazepam and nitrazepam withdrawal". Biol. Psychiatry 31 (2): 212–3.

Kitabayashi Y, Ueda H, Narumoto J, et al (2001). "Chronic high-dose temazepam dependence 123I-IMP SPECT and EEG studies". Addict Biol 6 (3): 257–261.

More:

Nitrazepam therapy compared with other drug therapies increases risk of death when used for intractable epilepsy in an analysis of 302 patients. The risk of death from nitrazepam therapy may be greater in younger patients with intractable epilepsy.

Source:

Rintahaka PJ; Nakagawa JA, Shewmon DA, Kyyronen P, Shields WD. (Apr 1999). "Incidence of death in patients with intractable epilepsy during nitrazepam treatment.". Epilepsia. 40 (4): 492-6.

Some stuff on Mazzies:

Temazepam may cause sudden death. Temazepam therapy can cause swallowing incoordination, high-peaked esophageal peristalsis, bronchospasm, delayed cricopharyngeal relaxation and severe respiratory distress necessitating ventilatory support. Temazepam may promote the development of parasympathetic overactivity or vagotonia leading to potentially fatal respiratory distress. The toxicity of temazepam relative to other benzodiazepines is well established and documented in medical literature, including the research findings of the Central Intelligence Agency's (CIA) done in the 1960's and 1970's on making temazepam the ultimate "truth serum" and as a behavior modification drug.. New research findings show that death as a result of overdose from temazepam alone is a much greater risk than previously thought.

SOURCE:

Lim HC; Nigro MA, Beierwaltes P, Tolia V, Wishnow R. (Sep 1992). "Temazepam-induced cricopharyngeal dysphagia, abnormal esophageal peristalsis and associated bronchospasm: probable cause of temazepam-related sudden death." 14 (5): 309-14.

NPR Fresh Air. June 28, 2007 and Tim Weiner, The Legacy of Ashes: The History of the CIA.

Ranelagh, John O'Beirne, The agency : the rise and decline of the CIA, Simon and Schuster, 1986

As you can see, the hypnotic benzos are on an another level here...(though I hate to admit it, because nitrazepam and temazepam are my favorite and I use them A LOT - the sh!t above scares me when I read it).

 

[Ham-milton]

Meh, that's pretty rare, and I don't think it happens at all with experienced users. I dunno for sure, though.

But yeah- there's just no way to compare the effects of something like flunitrazepam.

Flunitrazepam is probably the most abuseable benzo in the world.

Nitrazepam is "okay" abuseable. Not great, not bad. You add an N-methyl, and all of a sudden you've got what is probably one of the most heavily abused benzos in the world- the beloved Erimin, Nimetazepam.

Unlike the anxiolytic benzos, these have a 9-Nitro group. That seems to make them way more abuseable.

Not that 9-Halo substitutions don't make for recreational drugs. They are, but not as much.

I wonder how Temazepam would feel if it had a 9-Nitro group in place of the Chloro. And instead of the unsubstituted phenyl, a 2-fluorophenyl...

man, that'd be dy-no-mite!

 

[Morphinator]

Temazepam and nitrazepam I prefer over flunitrazepam. I find that they kick in much faster and are they are harder. Still, flunitrazepam is way out of clonazepam's league. LoL!

I have actually tried nimetazepam while I was on vacation in Bali. I remember taking the pills, they didn;t kick in as fast as nitraz or temaz (which I tend to feel like 20 minutes after I eat them), but they were quick nontheless. I must say, that was the strongest benzo I have ever put in my body. It totally knocked me out. At first it didn't seem too different from a nitrazepam or temazepam high, just that it was harder and it lasted longer (longer than even nitrazepam. I was high for the entire next day too, lol).

So as far as strength go...

1. Nimetazepam
2. Temazepam
3. Nitrazepam
4. Triazolam
5. Flunitrazepam

I have a suspicion that Midazolam and Brotizolam might be AT LEAST on par with numbers 2-4 on the above list, if not stronger. I've done midazolam, but orally - so I don't think I've got felt it at its most powerful because of its poor oral bioavailability.

As far as my personal favs, most euphoric:

1. Temazepam
2. Nitrazepam
3. Nimetazepam
4. Flunitrazepam
5. Triazolam

 

[Morphinator]

Meh, that's pretty rare, and I don't think it happens at all with experienced users. I dunno for sure, though.

But yeah- there's just no way to compare the effects of something like flunitrazepam.

Flunitrazepam is probably the most abuseable benzo in the world.

Nitrazepam is "okay" abuseable. Not great, not bad. You add an N-methyl, and all of a sudden you've got what is probably one of the most heavily abused benzos in the world- the beloved Erimin, Nimetazepam.

Unlike the anxiolytic benzos, these have a 9-Nitro group. That seems to make them way more abuseable.

Not that 9-Halo substitutions don't make for recreational drugs. They are, but not as much.

I wonder how Temazepam would feel if it had a 9-Nitro group in place of the Chloro. And instead of the unsubstituted phenyl, a 2-fluorophenyl...

man, that'd be dy-no-mite!

Oh, Nimetazepam (and temazepam) are major drugs of abuse in Asia. Nimetazepam is mainly a problem in Malaysia, Japan, and South Korea. Temazepam is also a problem in Japan and Hong Kong.

The whole thing with flunitrazepam's reputation is really undeserved. It's not the most abused benzo worldwide, in fact, according to statistics from several nations (developed first world nations), temazepam seizures account for about half of all benzo seizures by authorities - In Australia, UK, Ireland, New Zealand, and several European and Asian countries. In Australia, 85% of all benzo prescription forgeries are for temazepam (Go here to read the official Gov't stats).

Also, though it is an hypnotic benzo, it doesn't have the toxicity that nitrazepam and temazepam do. For fuck sakes, nitraz and temaz are carcinogenicand both drugs have been found to be both photogenotoxic and photocytotoxic. They are also are both teratogenic, especially temazepam (which is listed in Pregnancy Category X). Temazepam and nitrazepam possesses both embryotoxicity and teratogenicity toxicities in vivo.

So nitrazepam and temazepam are genotoxic drugs. Genotoxic drugs have the potential to cause genetic mutations, DNA damage and promote the development of cancer including tumors.

In Australia all benzos are schedule 4 drugs, temazepam is a schedule 8 - placed alongside morphine, oxymorphone, dextroamphetamine, methamphetamine, and cocaine.

In Sweden, there are only 4 hypnotics on the market: nitrazepam, flunitrazepam, zopiclone, and temazepam. Temazepam is listed under a much more stringent drug schedule, and as such it's only prescribed if nitrazepam, flunitrazepam or zopiclone failed to work.

UK laws list temazepam as Class B (class A if injected); all other benzos are Class C.

Even in the US, temazepam is the only benzo which requires special scripts in order for a pharmacist to fill the script.

Temazepam's worldwide abuse has caused havoc (read about the pharmacy burglaries in Aussie specifically for temazepam). In North America, it hasn't become much of an issue for some odd reason, while the rest of the world has been shooting it, forging scripts for it, robbing pharmacies for it, etc lol. I mean it's a great benzo, but it's not morphine or heroin.

 

[Ham-milton]

You were high the whole next day? Wow. Are you sure it was nimetazepam, though? They were taken off the market a while ago, but 'they're' still sold on the street in many SE Asian countries, nitrazepam as nimetazepam, that is.

I'm surprised Flunitrazepam is that low on your lists. What's detracting it?

 

[Morphinator]

I was suspicious of pills I got, but I was told that they were nimetazepam. In Bali, everything is tense. Getting caught would have landed me in a prison on some island in Indonesia - last place I wanna be, trust me.

So I took them, thinking what the heck - if they aren't Ermins, they might be nitrazepam or more likely, temazepam, since temazepam is a huge drug of abuse in Bali. In fact, all the locals that I met were actually encouraging me to do temazepam (which I found weird because I thought Ermin was the big thing over there). Anyway, I got some nimetazepams (or what I was told were nimetazepam's) after explaining to them that I do temazepam quite often and know it feels wonderful, but I wanted to experience something new and to be honest, nimetazepam was something I was anticipating before going to Bali. Anyhoo, I took the pills and wait and wait, then I felt that typical warm benzo warmth you get all over your body. I just felt really really really relax and happy. As time progressed, I became even more even more heavily sedated. When I would sit down, I felt like I was glued - it was very difficult to get off the chair. All in all, I was very relaxed, content, happy, and just felt great. Went to bed, woke up the next day with the effects still lingering. In fact, the "hangover" lasted all day - that was the only downside. It's onset of action was ok - i'd say it was quick, about 30-40 mins. With nitrazepam and temazepam, I could feel them about 20 minutes after oral consumption. Sometimes it takes a bit longer (like 30 mins) if I had eaten anything.

The thing I didn't like about Rohypnol was the fact that it took some time before it kicked in - almost every hypnotic benzo can be felt within 30 mins. With flunitrazepam, it took like 45 mins, sometimes i would start feeling it at the 50-60 min mark, and that just sucked. However, when it kicked in it was good. Strong sedation, and the like. I just thought that it wasn't all that - like people made it seem like the god of all benzos, but it was no different. It didn't have anything extra, in fact, compared to most other hypnotic benzos, it lacked in speed of onset.

 

[chrisinabox]

dude, just take 8mg or better yet, take more. ur tolerance should hold.

 

[hatethered]

no thanks i wont take 8mg of rohypnol chris, i dont know if your serious or not but when i get them im def NOT taking 8mg at once. that much will not be needed! think about it, im only on
4mg clonazepam a day, not 10. rohypnol is a hypnotic benzo meaning its effects will be much more pronounced, like i said im starting with 1.5-2mg you can never be too careful....
and if that doesnt do it for me then i guess im wrong and i'll double the dose..

 

[klowns]

man, just becasue someone tells you it feels stronger high to tehm, does NOT mean its going to be that way for you. it COULD, but it could also feel weak as fuck. 2 mg royhypnol is equipotent to 1 mg kpin. would one mg kpin get you fucked up? no. but there is an incomplete cross tolerance, im sure youll feel something, but not much off only a mg or 2. im guessing youll need at least 6 if not 10(mg)

 

[klowns]

moral of story here people. everyone reacts differently to everything. YMMV. one person may get GREAT effects off one benzo that another person cant even feel. but that other person can get fucked up on another benzo howeer, and the first person cant feel a thing off it.
thats it.

 

[hatethered]

thanks for all the input, im not looking to get into this.. but im gonna take 1.5-2mg rohypnol=a hypnotic benzo, i.e more pronounced sedation and whatnot. i looking for a high that will knock me down/but not out. you know, a good benzo high,where i can smoke pot while on it... if i had more klonopin, it would do itt, so would xanax in the right dose.... im not saying rohypnol is the best anything, ive never tried it,if i could buy benzos off the streets like in big cities it would be no worries but im excited only because im loooking for that pronounced sedation,anti-anxiety... so i got offered rohypnol for a trade and i took it! honestly guys im looking to get fucked up.

 

[Morphinator]

Again, you are not understanding what we are saying.

Nobody claimed clonazepam wasn't strong or that it wasn't recreational, just that it isn't at the top. Nobody said lorazepam was any good, in fact, I hate lorazepam and think it's not recreational at all. I only stated a fact: that it is a stronger anticonvulsant then clonazepam and is more often used in epilepsy.
Your list of most "heavily abused" benzos is not right at all, not according to actual statistics and studies done on benzo abuse.
Clonazepam, alprazolam, and probably diazepam are the most abused in the USA, but the U.S. is not the world, and just in case you didn't know, but there is a whole world out there.
It's well established and well known that flunitrazepam and temazepam are the most heavily abused benzos worldwide - hence why these two benzos alone are put under more restrictive drug schedules in many countries across the world. Some may think that that kind of status is undeserved, but it's the reality. Flunitrazepam's notoriety has come from it's reputation as a "date rape drug" and it's association with the rave scene and ecstasy, and temazepam was/is heavily abused by those that have their finger on the "self-destruct" button (the very down and out types, the homeless, the very darkest and most hardcore part of the drug scene was where temazepam was mostly found). Many people like to inject temazepam, and its association with crack cocaine users and heroin injectors has made it the "barbiturate" among the benzos. So as far as most abused, flunitrazepam and temazepam are the two - statistics from many countries across the globe have made that clear as glass.

Nitrazepam is not even available in the US, but it is almost everywhere else in the world. It's misuse is also well documented, unlike clonazepam and alprazolam (which are mostly an American thing). Guess what though? Alprazolam is the #1 most prescribed benzo in the U.S., and clonazepam is close behind it at #2. So go figure.

Diazepam can also be considered a major benzo of abuse, but that's mostly because it is the most widely available across the world.

Another thing that I already posted (and you probably didn't even read, or could not comprehend) was actual cases from medical literature describing temazepam's and nitrazepam's withdrawals. Also of them being extremely toxic compared to all other benzos (including being carcinogenic, photogenotoxic, photocytotoxic, and a number of other problems associated with their use).

 

[klowns]

the dude got his answer now anyways and is satisfied so i think the thread should be closed beacsue no one wants to read any of you ranting anyways about how temazepam is the most widely abused benzo. your flat out wrong, and by the way xanax is abused heavily ALL OVER THE WORLD, as is kpin; it jsut goes uner a differnt name (RIVOTRIL)
im out so dont rant at me anymore

 

[hatethered]

my thread got hi-jacked, and i wish someone would comment about what im posting, you can go ahead and close this

 

[Ham-milton]

no thanks i wont take 8mg of rohypnol chris, i dont know if your serious or not but when i get them im def NOT taking 8mg at once. that much will not be needed! think about it, im only on
4mg clonazepam a day, not 10. rohypnol is a hypnotic benzo meaning its effects will be much more pronounced, like i said im starting with 1.5-2mg you can never be too careful....
and if that doesnt do it for me then i guess im wrong and i'll double the dose..

That's a pretty good idea. 8mg is an awful lot.

 

[Ham-milton]

fuck some people are stupid. HOW THE FUCK could you get off saying that Nimetazepam is the most heavily abused benzo in the world? you are so fucking far from right its silly.
yes, it is the most recreational benzo (for me and MANY others)
however, it is only available in a tiny little area, and none comes out. there are hardly any people abusning nime except the people who happen to live in the right part of asia. jesus
my guess is that tehh most heavily abused benzos aer valium, xanax, rivotril, royhypnol.
and no, sorry. just becasue you getr a better high off temazepam or ativan or nitrazepam DOES IN NO WAY make them "Stronger drugs" fuck how stupid are you. ativans barely fade people. kpins knock you on the ground for 2 days. i mean come on now people. ACTUALY, the potenct charts are pretty damn accurate. the strongest benzos are in this order: triazolam, alprazolam, clonazepam. then comes in ativan and royhypnol at only half the strength of xanax.
hey, im SURE youve never made any spelling errors. its a fucking forum for christs sakes, you KNOW exactly what i , and everyone else is saying, so get teh fuck off your high horse and dont say shit like "you shouldnt even be type here anymore" thats flaming, which IS against the rules.
the reason i think clonazepam is kind is because to me it is superior in every way. its the most potent, and it lasts the longest. as well, it comes on pretty quick, and causes full body and mind relaxation. and yes, there are thousands of people on klonopin for the purpous of preventing seizures. i KNOW its not THE strongest anticonvulsant among the benzos but it is up there, and very good for taht use, just as good as any other benzo, and probably better due to how long it lasts. usualy, with any benzo , people with seizure problems have to take another med as well.

Over and over you make the mistake of thinking that "potency" is entirely objective. It's not.

Those numbers are all based upon what is the most potent benzo as an anxiolytic. That's not the same as "most potent recreational." And any "definite" list of most potent recreational benzos is dubious at best.

Apparently, for you, the way to win an argument is to yell the loudest and swear the most. You're not an academic in any sense of the word. Have you even completed a BA?? Judging by your linguistic patterns, I wonder if you've graduated high school.

The way you're looking at these charts and the data is indicative of the whole problem with you: the information you gleam is not analysed, it's just spit back out, over and over. Just like all those people talking about heroin-based E, and strychnine-laced acid, you take information from one source and parrot it. You may have better sources, but you're still only parroting and giving the most superficial thought to what's actually contained in the data.

And even when confronted with contradictory data, what do you do? Do you seek out studies to confirm your own beliefs? Nope. You just swear and yell and say we're all stupid. You just keep confirming that you are as puerile as we think you are.

It does make any further conversation with you rather pointless. If you can't provide a study or data or some source to confirm what you're trying to convince us of, do you really expect us to just say "oh, yeah, you called me a stupid fuck 19 times, I guess you're right??"

I don't know what social environment you come from, but that sort of earthborn discourse doesn't have a place in civilized society.

 

[MattPsy]

I believe the problem here is some confusing potency (dose by weight) and subjective strength (how "strong" it "feels").
Agreed with Ham-milton on klowns argumentation method. Despiten what you may think klowns, repetition and name calling doesn't make you any more right. We're more interested in content quality.

 

[Morphinator]

Oh well, at this point I guess it's useless arguing with klowns. I guess he has the right to believe that clonazepam is the strongest anticonvulsant, most potent, most euphoric, most sedative, most recreational, etc.

Some people think medical literature and scientific research does not hold as much weight as some their own opinions & beliefs, I guess.

 

[burn out]

Oh well, at this point I guess it's useless arguing with klowns. I guess he has the right to believe that clonazepam is the strongest anticonvulsant, most potent, most euphoric, most sedative, most recreational, etc.

Some people think medical literature and scientific research does not hold as much weight as some their own opinions & beliefs, I guess.

klowns is a very odd user. i agree that arguing with him is pointless, i learned that when i tried to explain to him that smoking marijuana everyday can be seriously harmful to some people.

however, i don't really understand him or his mindset. one odd thing i've noticed about him is he seems to rant and rave about many different drugs. for example, someone will make a thread about gbl and then he will go on a rant about what an incredible drug it is, and how it's like the best drug ever. then someone will make a thead on valium and he'll do the same thing, talking about how incredible valium is. then someone will make a thread on lyrica and he'll say lyrica is the most euphoric drug ever or something. for whatever reason, it seems like his list of "greatest drug ever" is like 15 drugs long and contains multiple pharmaceuticals that most people find barely recreational.

he either greatly exaggerates the affects of the drugs he does or has some very very strange body chemistry to get the reactions he claims from many drugs. i've always wanted to go through his post history to try to see whether he contradicts himself but im just too lazy to do it.

has anyone else noticed klowns doing what i'm talking about or is it just me?

 

[Morphinator]

^ very true burn out. He actually does contradict himself a lot. If you look at the "least favorite benzo" thread, he lists temazepam as his least favorite - I assume he is retaliating to the fact that I spanked him in this debate and actually backed everything I claimed with established studies and research. For some wierd reason, he is angry about the fact that nitrazepam, flunitrazepam, temazepam, and all other hypnotics are stronger than clonazepam. Even alprazolam is a generally stronger benzo than clonazepam is - besides the fact that clonazepam may be a better anxiolytic (that itself is questionable).

In an older thread about benzos, I remember him claiming temazepam was one of his favs. When I have time, I will search it and find it (though he might get to it and delete it)....

...and I remember it was him because of his avatar and his style of writing. They stand out.