Question regarding Opioid use and Sleep Deprivation

[Johnsonville]

First off I want to say that I did my best using both the site search engine as well as Google to try to find this answer but was, obviously, unsuccessful.

My question is why whenever one is mildly-moderate to moderately sleep deprived (never personally gone past 2 night in a row without sleep), does the use of opioids not only block the subjective effects of sleep deprivation but actually make it better? I want to add that the sleep deprivation I am referring to is due to use of amphetamines during long nights in the library.

I am fairly well versed in psycho-pharmacology but I am at a loss when it comes to this quandary. Perhaps it has something to due with the dopamine release triggered by opiate use augmenting the already high levels of DA produced by the amphetamines? However even that wouldn't reverse any of the negative effects of sleep deprivation.

Thoughts?

 

[sekio]

I have heard of opioids being used to help stem fatigue from physical labour (esp. kratom), but I ahven't heard of them counteracting sleep deprivation.
Histamine release may play some part in the effect of "stimulatory" opioids.

I bet this effect is variable though; I know some people who take opioids and just drop asleep. Certain opioids like morphine are considered to be "more sedating" than drugs like e.g. pethidine or oxycodone.

This is not really Advanced Drug Discussion, and since you're fishing for anecodtes it seems more appropriate in OD

 

[bayhead415]

I remember reading somewhere opiates help promote deep stage 4 REM sleep, but I just skimmed it. Opiates are narcotic drugs meaning sleep inducing when you take the Latin routes or something along those lines. It definitely can induce sleeping, for example "nodding" when someone is falling asleep as they are trying to function due to too many opiates, but from my experience it does not always produce a sleep inducing effect especially when someone is injured, stressed, or malnourished.

I say malnourished as recently I ran out of my foodstamps early this month and my medication has not been sedating as well as I have not been able to find sleep easily until it is essentially early morning although my stressful family and living situation play into that. I also have a weird tolerance, be it due to my nurture or nature, but doses that usually put others to sleep would barely have effect on me even when I started. I also did not recognize my back problems that had been neglected me whole life until a while after using it and realizing it was stopping a pain that has been with me for as long as I could remember only to have it come back later to where I started connecting it to a neglected back injury from a waterslide accident...

Anyways just some random info from my case/experiences. Hopefully I was able to help give some insight into the sleep inducing effect opiates create. I will add it is also not the only sleep medication and definitely is not the best choice for that use due to the dependency risk as well as possibilities of rapid tolerance development that will cause the dose to need to be increased over time if used for this manner due to the excessive dose it takes to cause the sleep inducing effect.

Edit: You might find this article useful too

http://www.painphysicianjournal.com/2008/april/2008;11;S133-S153.pdf

 

[mrflowers00]

i can go on 2hours sleep a night when i'm on oxycodone

 

[bayhead415]

i can go on 2hours sleep a night when i'm on oxycodone

Extremely unhealthy.... Please get yourself at least 6 hours of sleep if not 7-8. Stage 4 REM sleep is important and takes time to reach.

 

[T. Calderone]

i can go on 2hours sleep a night when i'm on oxycodone

I was like that when my doctor prescribed me phentermine with oxycodone. The goal was to lose weight because I was a fatass. But could not sleep and didn't really need it, even when drinking a shit-ton of beer. In retrospect, it was a bad combo. I'm off these drugs and still can't sleep.

 

[bayhead415]

I was like that when my doctor prescribed me phentermine with oxycodone. The goal was to lose weight because I was a fatass. But could not sleep and didn't really need it, even when drinking a shit-ton of beer. In retrospect, it was a bad combo. I'm off these drugs and still can't sleep.

Have you tried herbal teas? Skullcap is a great herb that is supposed to have anti-anxiety qualities, but in my experience produced a heavy feeling that really aided in sleeping. There are also other things that can help. PM me if you want to try to discuss some healthy sleep practices as usually it is hard to sleep due to not keeping a regular sleep schedule as well as not having a night time sleep ritual that tells the body it is time to sleep. I wish the best to you as sleep issues are not fun to deal with.

 

[sn0]

opioids in small dosages brings energy,awakened,and alertness in most occasions for me. In large doses def induces heavy sleep, IE: Nodding.

 

[bayhead415]

opioids in small dosages brings energy,awakened,and alertness in most occasions for me. In large doses def induces heavy sleep, IE: Nodding.

VERY bad generalization.... Oxymorphone can produce VERY sedating effects at very low doses even below 5 mg. Oxycodone does not really produce a sedating effect in the same manner even in high doses and brings a more alert energetic opiate feeling... I personally can go 5-10 mg doses without getting very sedating and it never brings me to a nod. Each opiate has it's different effect as there are 3 different opiate sub-receptors that have slightly different effects. I will bring up this article again that explains opiate pharmacology VERY in depth.

http://www.painphysicianjournal.com/2008/april/2008;11;S133-S153.pdf

 

[dragonslayer428]

Percocets make me tired, narco/vicodin makes me hyper

 

[daytryptr]

Percocets make me tired, narco/vicodin makes me hyper

Plugged morphine made me tired as shit, and kratom/hydrocodone (the few times i had a script) definitely is more stimulating. At low doses of course. Take a bunch of kratom/hydro's and you'll be just as tired/nodding as morphine. I find low-med dose kratom (with a cup of coffee as well) can help w/ getting through the day after getting shit for sleep the night before, for whatever reason (amps, insomnia, tripping, etc). Its stimulating, and makes the comedown from stimulant induced sleep deprivation alot less nasty. Just be careful if your HR/BP is high already, as kratom/caffeine will raise it obviously.

But ime/ho its just masking the symptoms. It works for a few days, but psychosis is inevitable. Semi-stimulating Opioids at low-med doses aren't going to let you function on less sleep from using amps, they just give you a bit more time before your body forces you to sleep, or you breakdown psychologically/physically. It can be done, but don't fool yourself into thinking you need less sleep than what you were getting before using stimulants. It WILL catch up to you.

The only way i use kratom for this (don't meddle with traditional opiates anymore), is if i get shit for sleep the night before, i force myself to make up for it the NEXT day. No later. Sleep 3 hours one night, take a 3-5 hour nap the next day and a good 6-8hr the next night, or take a 12hr sleep-a-thon if i can't fall asleep in the daytime for a nap. Using sedatives if necessary. Don't do this often either, i can manage it one day a week when i have to be at work a good 4-6 hours earlier than usual (2am 8( ), which means usually 3 hours of sleep before that shift, any more than that and the health affects from fucking with my sleep patterns so drastically really takes its toll.

If your not getting on average 6-8 hours every night, your setting yourself up for a problem. There's no way around it, drugs can facilitate rescheduling of sleep/awake, but not make up for lost sleep, and by using drugs to do so your affecting the quality of sleep as well. Hard exhaustive exercise to induce sleep is the only other option for me, but thats not always practical. Definitely preferred over using drugs though.

 

[Johnsonville]

I probably should have clarified I am not looking for anecdotes I am trying to figure out the specific mechanism/ way that this effect derives from. Personally I am an avid PST user, which I know with thebane and such can have a stimulating effect but I've have done this scenario with many different kinds of opioids and it has always yielded this effect, granted to differing degrees but still.

I do appreciate the feedback though guys! Thank you! I especially like that link you, BayHead, posted. From what I was able to read, that i is very interesting. Next time I've got some time I am going to read through that whole thing.

Does anyone know the specific means by which this effect is produced? Unfortunately with the link in this section, I am not too hopeful...

 

[bayhead415]

http://www.aasmnet.org/jcsm/Articles/030106.pdf

This article may be what your looking for... I did not even look it over, but it came up searching "opiate stage 4 rem sleep." Honestly for these Q's it is best to google and find scientific articles that relate to your subject.... I found a plethorea of info such as how cannabis does something to increase benzodiazepine receptor activity possibly leading to its anti-anxiety effect. Give it a try you'll never know what you'll find 'till you do

Edit: After a quick skim it is not about the pharmacology, but the results of a test on how it affects the different stages of sleep. It may be of some use to your research.

Edit 2: Some other interesting info on REM sleep and how it affects pain levels. Included a little blurb about opiate function.
http://www.journalsleep.org/articles/290204.pdf
"We have therefore used a novel radiant heat stimulation methodology to assess pain sensitivity following modest sleep loss and sleep-stage specific loss of REM sleep. We chose to focus on REM sleep because of some intriguing conflicting information. On the one hand, opioid analgesics have been shown to suppress acetylcholine release and REM sleep when administered to brain regions that generate REM sleep in animals.(18,19)
On the other hand, acetylcholine is known to promote both analgesia and REM sleep. The central role of acetylcholine in the control of REM sleep is well established.(20) As to its role in analgesia, animal studies have shown that cholinomimetics have an analgesic effect(21,22) and clinical studies have shown that cholinergic agonistics can be used for pain control.(23,24) Several studies have now shown that REM sleep deprivation in rats produces a lowered response threshold to electrical or mechanical stimulation (i.e., hyperalgesia) that endures for at least 24 hours following the deprivation.(25-27) Finally, a very recent human study reported an inverse relationship between the amount of REM sleep time and the pain response to a noxious stimulus in pain-free normal subjects.(28,) Thus, we tested the hypothesis that REM sleep deprivation would have a hyperalgesic effect."

Edit 3: "Cronin A, Keifer JC, Baghdoyan HA, Lydic R. Opioid inhibition of rapid eye movement sleep by a specific mu receptor agonist. Br J Anaesth 1995;74:188-92."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7696070 Hit the "Link out-more resources" to get a link to the full text, but this is the abstract link.... I knew I used opana at night time for a reason due to the almost fully selective mu binding.

 

[Bruce Haze]

I have heard of opioids being used to help stem fatigue from physical labour (esp. kratom), but I ahven't heard of them counteracting sleep deprivation.
Histamine release may play some part in the effect of "stimulatory" opioids.

I bet this effect is variable though; I know some people who take opioids and just drop asleep. Certain opioids like morphine are considered to be "more sedating" than drugs like e.g. pethidine or oxycodone.

-------

I agree I always up my dose of subutex, or whatever opiates are at hand, whenever I take stimulants, as it seems to negate the side effects.

 

[SPDemon420]

I was like that when my doctor prescribed me phentermine with oxycodone. The goal was to lose weight because I was a fatass. But could not sleep and didn't really need it, even when drinking a shit-ton of beer. In retrospect, it was a bad combo. I'm off these drugs and still can't sleep.

wait... they gave you oxy for weight loss? or was it something you were previously taking?