Bupe question about going from a bad heroin habit to suboxone

[The Doc.]

I would give an answer, but I don't understand how you are going in precipitated withdrawals if you're in such bad withdrawal that you can't wait any longer.

I would be really sick by 18 hours where I either needed to cop or to take sub. The first dose of sub would usually make me feel kind of weird, but wasn't precipitated WD. How much sub are you starting with when you have gone into precipitated WD?

The day before you're going to take sub, don't use as much heroin as you would normally use. You're going to be stopping anyway. I would wait until I was physically WDing and then start with a low dose, like 1-2mg. It won't hold you, but you'll have an idea if it's too early or not. Once that's dissolved, just hang on a bit longer to see how you feel, and then take more of a regular dose if it seems alright.

That's what I don't get if the heroin lasts that long(30+hours) then you won't start getting really physically sick till the receptors are cleared around then I mean if your so sick rolling around puking unable to sleep and in so much pain then taking a sub will take that awya not put you into withdrawal I mean its not like your high as fuck then you take a suboxone and go into precipitated withdrawals.

 

[bluephoenix]

After rereading the thread here is what i think is happening to this guy. He has a pretty substantial heroin habit. Due to the size of the habit when he takes some suboxone it isn't making him feel any better because it is a fairly low to medium dose for his habit. He isn't waiting long enough for the sub to work and just shooting more dope. Again because of his habit there are still bare receptors after taking the sub so it makes him feel well. I still say forcing PW then trying to power through it with more dope, then trying to take more sub the next day is a losing battle. Your best bet is to do one of the following or a combo of these. Taper your heroin habit by a little each day. Get on MMT if other methods don't work. Try Loperamide before you really get sick and aid it with some sub. Take the sub in small doses over the course of a day. I highly recommend the last one. Wait as long as you can then take 2mgs of sub. Wait an hour or two more then take 2mg. Keep doing this until you feel better it should only take 6-8 hours. You won't go into heavy PW and while you're waiting take a hot shower or shuffle around the block to take your mind off it. You will feel 100% when you stabilize on the proper sub dose. Good luck man, the people here know what they are talking about many of us have been doing this for decades.

 

[Emme80]

^ that's what I'm thinking ...i(Trainspotter)if the H lasts 30hrs.(that's getting close into methadone half life #'s) of wd would mean it's a slower onset of wd, slower to get to that ledge, ready to fall into full sick; in which case is already time to take sub. and start to feel a bit better. Yes? Say..at 8hrs. you may be feeling..unkindly..16hrs. unwell..24hrs...now edging towards the full sick.... ? I don't know if it's just what we all wish for - to find a loophole that will make it all go away without having to face a bit of why were knocking on the door in the 1st place. Even though I'm not doing subs, the plan seems logically counterproductive. Why not just let yourself get a lil' sick....(worth it if wanting to be clean bad enough&nothing we who have this lifestyle have experienced all too many times)then feel better. Even if it DOES take 30hrs. until your able to jump on sub...isn't that better than forcing into the PW arena? Then try easing w/ H, and finally...possibly hurting worse? I personally just don't like the odds. I'm not a betting girl. I get it, in theory..just not logically. If the wd's are simply nothing you can or are willing to take, have you thought about Methadone? But like I said, maybe there is some new unfounded trick that nooobodys ever figured out. Be a dreamer. Just don't screw your body up more than need be... just hope OP'sss gets that "lifetime of recovery"....as you've gotta want it so bad you'll take the inevidible to get there. And then stay there. Again, best of luck to you-be careful.

 

[Emme80]

Yea emme iwho knows mabye he found the new way to induct people but I don't see it catching on. Don't think well see many detox facilities intentionally putting people into precipitated withdrawal then giving then heroin to ease those then giving them a sub the next day I mean its not a good idea why no wait 30-40 hours if the heroin really lasts you that long then you should be fine that time then once the sickness starts getting really physically bad then take your sub.

Yea.. That clinic would certainly run into an issue or two

 

[The Doc.]

Yep it just seems like more hurt to me cause sometimes the dope won't help if you did too much sub and it is a risk that doesn't seem worth it seeing that the other option is just to wait till you feel your body getting real (physically)sick then take the sub and ease it not planning on sending yourself into precipitated withdrawals then trying to relieve it by doing dope then take your sub I mean its just not a plan that people would think makes sense especially if the whole point of you doing this you say is to avoid precipitated withdrawal I mean why not wait then take some low dose sub (2mg and under) when sick and if you do go into precipitated withdrawal it won't be that bad considering most of the heroin has left the receptors and if you R ally need to do heroin before the hour of precipitated withdrawal is over with then knock your self out.

 

[Emme80]

^indeed. It like...why jump into the pits of hell to fetch a pail of hot water when you can just slowly bring it to boil at home. I understand when you don't want to get sick, you'll think of all the shortcuts possible. What does wrinkle my brow more..I keep thinking of the "lifetime of recovery "...wanting it that bad requires....a bit of willingness to walk the coals.
I do hope OP is ok... Hope the induction went on properly. Suppose she didn't find what she was looking for here.
'No experience need not apply' ....oh well . You gave your best Train....I do happen to love&chuckle your #17 post, a perfect ending:
"No one is answering you cause your idea is STUPID and your a cocky little shit." You said what simply had to be said. Gold star for you!*i slap your forehead*

 

[The Doc.]

Hehe yea I had to be a bit of a dick there to get the point across lol I'm always very nice and friendly and non judgemental with people on here asking questions that is until they start talking down to me or being a dink to me then I simply give them a good dose of the TRUTH no pussy footing around or sugarcoating just telling them like it is sometimes has got to be done and then if the person can't see I'm trying to help and get defensive with me or name calling then I simply have no time for them and leave it at that. She was being very rude acting like I'm a complete idiot and like she knows everything about suboxone there is to know. Like DR House says when I'm a jerk to people there's always a reason for it (gobbles down 6 vicodin) haha I guess we won't be seeing the OP after they read that dose of truth but she was treating us all like retards when we tried to help we got no time for that around here we are here to help ,anybody that acts like that to us we don't need and I could care less if they leave BL.

All the haters better leave well alone Or else Me and emme will give you the boot if you don't %) ever had size 15s up the ass people?! Haha just kidding.(mabye )

 

[Lorne???]

You should in theory be fine if you already have a sub in your system then take it again since whateevr heroin you do is going to be pretty much blocked depending on how much you took of Sub its like if you were taking sub for a few months daily then did heroin one day about 8 hours or so after taking sub you may feel a slight high that diminishes quickly but you wouldnt have to worry about going into precipitated withdrawal the next dose you take. May I ask if your terrified of the precipitated withdrawals then why purposely do it to yourself?

And 30 hours?! How do you take your suboxone do you also inject that? Does your heroin really last you 24+ hours ? If so that's a very slow metabolism heroin has a very short half life. I've heard of it a few times though where people don't get physically sick until 30 hours and still go into withdrawal at 24+ hours from taking sub but most of the time if taken sublingually in a low dose people don't have to wait that long unless they have a slow metabolism of course. When sub is injected the chances of going into precipitated withdrawals go way up same with snorting it which usually means the person has to wait longer to induct onto suboxone than they would've if they took it sublingually the theory is the naloxone makes the precipitated withdrawals even worse than it would have been with just buprenorphine withdrawals since not as much naloxone gets absorbed via the sublingual route along with the fact the bupe creeps up on you instead of hitting you all at once like happens with IV bupe. That seems weird to me 30 hours mabye cause I get away with it at only 4 hours every time with no trouble but I hear of this happening a lot more to people that inject suboxone.

Morphine's half life is indeed short(1.5-4h, mean 2-3) but this is a perfect example of half-life being irrelevant to duration of action.

Due to it's very poor lipid solubility, morphine takes a long time to fully penetrate the CNS. This is why it still takes 20-30 minutes to feel the full effects of morphine, even when injected intravenously.

The trade-off is that one it does enter the CNS, it takes just as long for it to exit. Thus, each morphine molecule hits multiple receptors, each time it enters the brain. This gives moderate-large doses an extended duration.

A perfect example is to compare it to oxycodone. Oxycodone's half-life is actually longer than morphine's, but it is well known that IV morphine has a longer duration/ "holds" longer.

At very high doses, however, this effect becomes exaggerated, and a sufficient dose of IV morphine/diamorphine can last upwards of 12 hours.

With diamorphine, a massive amount of morphine iimmediately ends up in the brain, and with good dope, I have been high 16 hours later.

I understand the OP's plight, as I too have to wait 30 hours, after doing massive shots of dope that is.

(Edit: Ok wow, after reading the entire thread, that is just crazy. PW's to avoid PW's???)

Well at least now everyone knows why heroin can last so fucking long. People put way to much stock in half-life...

 

[The Doc.]

You have good experience putting yourself into precipitated withdrawals on purpose and using dope then taking sub in order to induct?? Jeez never would've thought we would have somebody else who did it that way. Or do you mean you are experienced transitioning to bupe when your body is really slow at metabolising substances? I just don't get it you say a good shot of dope can lat 16+ hours okay yes I believe that. I know the amount of time substances will stay in your body has many other variables than just half life but what I don't get is if your high for 20 plus hours then how can you also be in the worst withdrawals of your life and can't wait to take the sub I mean if the morphine truly lasts that long shouldn't she not be getting physically sick till it wears of?

 

[Lorne???]

No lol, I edited my post. I didn't read beyond your post, because the question of just why morphine/diamorphine,can last so long,is s, to me at least, fascinating. I'm not even sure what the OP wanted, since she was deadset on her little plan, and ignoring all advice.

 

[The Doc.]

Yea lol I edited mine too she was being pretty rude and her plan to avoid precipitated withdrawals by doing it to herself purposely made no sense to me then you chimed In l
Saying oh ya why wasnt I here sooner I'm good at this lol I was like WTF?

 

[Emme80]

@trainspotter-I can go for the jugular..I'm good at that...short but feisty. Sleep with me boots on.
I could read the multiple posts...back to back, explaining the same thing over and over yet I felt like I was on a nightmare merry-go-round. What's at stake....a "lifetime if recovery"... Something that important warrants relinquishment of not ALL control, but a certain amount. How "worth it" is it? Hope she's feeling fine.

 

[The Doc.]

And yea it a pretty obvious half life has very little to do with how lo g a person will actuly have the substance present in their body due to all all variables considered. I mean if I can get away with doing sub 4-6 hours after dope and others get sick waiting 20+ hours then half life can't be all we consider that's for sure.

I was thinking mabye people with this problem would be Better off switching to smoking heroin for a day or two before going on sub because OF the much shorter duration smoking it seems to have what do you think Lorne? Am I onto something here

 

[Lorne???]

And yea it a pretty obvious half life has very little to do with how lo g a person will actuly have the substance present in their body due to all all variables considered. I mean if I can get away with doing sub 4-6 hours after dope and others get sick waiting 20+ hours then half life can't be all we consider that's for sure.

Shh! Don't tell people that. Didn't you know that 20mg of diazepam will have you buzzed for like, 100 hours???

 

[The Doc.]

Lol yea what do you think about switching to smoking g heroin the days before switching to suboxone die to the shorter duration smoking carries.

 

[Lorne???]

Yea lol I edited mine too she was being pretty rude and her plan to avoid precipitated withdrawals by doing it to herself purposely made no sense to me then you chimed In l
Saying oh ya why wasnt I here sooner I'm good at this lol I was like WTF?

LMFAO, yeah I'm sure you were like "wtf", especially since it's likely "well, Lorne knows his shit, let's see what he has to say... Wait, WHAT???"

That's why I like you though, we we're both editing our posts at the sane time!

But yeah, in the end, by the time your really sick, you can dose subs. But there is a middle point, where you feel terrible, but still can't dose subs. But remember to, we are talking about huge doses of fucking dope, and even without PW's, buprenorphine just doesn't satisfy. I've learned to make myself wait 48 hours( or close to that) because buprenorphine is much more effective in total WD. And, for me at least, if you don't halfway "enjoy"(and I am using that word very loosely, as clearly that is not the point of buprenorphine) the first dose, then it fucks up the entire regimen.

What amazes me is she was dosing sublingual. I only ever had PW problems with IV. Sublingual comes on so slow, you can easily titrate yourself up. By the time you have a full dose in your system several hours later(after multiple doses) the morphine is out of your system, and you have made a smooth transition.

(And for the record, I could never, ever force myself into PW. I hate the shit so much that I literally do a tiny dose after any H/morphine binge, at least 30 hours later, and am still nervous!)

 

[Emme80]

Lesson: beware of one who says "I'm not trying to be rude" in each post.
AND...thread titles can be deceiving.
I'd to get off the Merry-Go-Round .. "Not trying to be rude".....
And Lorne?? I liked watching the actuality of situation come over you-as I could almost see it happen on the screen.
Well, this took my mind off Tuesdays Impending doom.
So, I give thanks to khaos0803. Merci!