quercetin, 5-htp, piracetam and mdma

[iibansukii]

Hi, I will be honest that I really did look through the forums using the search engine for some specific answers, but was unable to find some of them... so here goes my questions.

1. I know people take quercetin before their roll to potentiate the effects of mdma.. I read some posts saying to take it 30 minutes before, 1 hour before, and 3 hours before. But from the mega supplement thread, doesn't it say its a MAO-B Inhibitor? Is that different from a maoi? because i thought taking maoi with mdma can cause serotonin syndrome? I'm so confused 8(..

2. If I DO take quercetin, which is(?) a maoi??? does that mean I shouldn't take 5-htp after the roll? I read that 5-htp + maoi can also cause serotonin syndrome.. and how long after should i take the 5-htp? I know people say to take it before they sleep or the day after and so on, but I usually take it when I feel like the effect of mdma came down? so maybe around 1-2 hours before bed? is that dangerous??

3. I also have been reading about piracetam, and read that it's really effective.. but through amazon it seems like the price of piracetam is incredibly expensive.. Reading posts about people taking like 1600-3000 mg of piracetam everyday for a month sounds like they would use about 100$ on that stuff! I found one on amazon for 1.1 lb (500 g) of pure piracetam for like 40$ but I don't know if that is credible or not so I'm still debating on buying it..

Sorry for such a long post and so many questions! Any information would be very useful! Thank you!

 

[First Bad Comedown]

Many herbs have modest MAOI properties, including kava kava and my personal favorite turmeric.
This does not mean they are associated with Serotonin Syndrome.
Although high enough doses of either do cause negative side-effects!

Turmeric is perhaps one of the most powerful anti-inflammatory herbs, both in the intestines and the brain.
Combined with black pepper its bioavailiability is substantially increased.
Although I took it daily for months it never affects me negatively, despite a recovering brain.
Then after a year had passed, I realized it was starting to give me mild fevers after a few days of taking it.
It is also a mild SSRI - which can cause disruptions in temperature regulation.
But it never caused me any real discomfort or anxiety.

Kava on the other hand made me feel gross.
Not just nauseous but actually irritated and psychotic almost.
Its dopaminergic effects make it contraindicated in patients with dopamine imbalance.

So many herbs and supplements have wide-spread effects on multiple neurotransmitter systems and metabolic enzymes, such as monoamine oxidase.
I wouldn't be concerned about quercetin if you take it in a reasonable dose, or one to two capsules.
Its liver P450 enzyme interactions are actually more significant than its MAOI properties, which is why dosage (both quercetin and mdma) is critical.

Even grapefruit is a P450 inhibitor known to interact with MDMA.
Do you think that grapefruit and turmeric will lead to SS if combined with MDMA?
Very unlikely.

The problem with neuroscience is that key terms lead people to make sweeping conclusions about things they hardly understand.
It is important to know how much MAO-B inhibition occurs, for how long, and especially in what regions of the brain.

Did you know that selegeline, a weak amphetamine that inhibits MAO, actually protects striatal dopamine and serotonin transporters during toxic MDMA doses?

Older anti-depressants had powerful MAOI properties in many areas of the brain.
Others do not.

It is all about degree and how much we understand.
I wouldn't be concerned about quercetin in small doses.
And its anti-inflammatory properties look interesting.

More significant to SS is body temperature.
It is a direct and powerful control that every MDMA user has.
Remember that.

 

[iibansukii]

Thanks for replying back!! If I take a 500mg quercetin about 1-3 hours before rolling, would that be okay?? How long before rolling should I take it?? And taking 5-htp before sleeping is safe I'm assuming...? Would it be possible for you to tell me how much of quercetin and piracetam I should take before rolling and how long before should I take them? And should I take anything WHILE I'm rolling and what and how long before should I post-load?? Thanks again!!

EDIT: What do you mean by "More significant to SS is body temperature??" if I get too cold, it can lead to SS? or if I get too warm??

 

[First Bad Comedown]

I am not familiar with dosages or the effects of quercetin.
I would gauge my dose based on experience after several trials without MDMA.
If it has strong effects on your mood or your stomach then I would recommend taking a partial dose.

5-HTP is associated with serotonin syndrome, a potentially fatal reaction.
I do not recommend it for three days post MDMA, as both cause a release of serotonin.
A high protein meal the next day, or a glass of milk that night, will provide plenty of dietary tryptohpan.
If you insist on taking it, try plain tryptophan not hydroxy tryptophan.
The second will cross the brain blood barrier much more quickly.
It is better to let your own bodily metabolism handle this - and take a partial dose of the tryptophan too.

During the roll, and before and after, I highly recommend taking three GRAMS of Vitamin C each time.
There is some evidence that very high vit c given intravenously completely blocks neurotoxicity from MDMA.
So high oral doses might have a real impact on humans, and it certainly can't hurt.

Piracetam works best in those that do not respond well to MDMA anymore.
It also has a powerful impact upon the brain function of those with neurotoxic damage.
More than this, it has gained a reputation as an excellent study aid around college campuses - and it avoids the negative side-effects seen with stimulants.

It works by reducing serotonin in the hypothalamus and increasing it preferentially in the prefrontal cortex.
And MDMA is targeting its serotonin release to the PFC, your highest cognitive center.
SSRIs also target the PFC.

After neurotoxicity from MDMA, it has been observed in primates that the hypothamaus is hypperinnervated by serotonin axons, and the PFC remains denervated. It was also documented that during initial recovery such axons popped up in the cortex but did not survive. Ultimately the density of hypothalamic serotonin was seen to be twice the normal level at 18 months post MDMA.
This is believed to be both permanent and reflective of what happens in human users.

And human data supports the finding that in some people, loss of higher brain serotonin occurs and a dysregulation of normal hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis occurs.

Just understand that the drug you are taking is a neurotoxin that selectively targets higher cortical serotonin axons.
The greatest control you have against this process is to take LOW MDMA doses.
Redosing is used in ALL animal models of neurotoxicity, because it is the most certain way to induce degeneration of higher serotonin neurons.
A 'safe' dose of MDMA is likey 100-150 mg taken ONCE every 90 days.

Any redosing on the first night, or especially the next few days, will cause more damage and less euphoria.
Using antioxidants may afford additional protection, and taking an SSRI just as the MDMA high is coming down is known to substantially reduce neurotoxic damage.

Can Piracetam prevent damage too?
I cannot say, as it has never been studied.
But I strongly suspect that it can - especially if taken when the experience is ending.
I believe it can clear the nasty metabolites of MDMA and dopamine from the brain more quickly.
And in the days following the experience.

Some people have complained that Piracetam actually prevented them from rolling!
And this makes sense to me, since its effects upon the PFC and hypothalamus require hours or even days to take effect.
In some people a high dose, say 3200 mg, can be taken three or four hours prior to MDMA.
In others, it requires two days of smaller doses, like 800mg, to work.
And they too will say that taking it at the same time as the MDMA may hinder the experience somewhat.

Based on my own experience in using Piracetam during the recovery process, I recommend taking 800mg twice the day before rolling.
And 1600 mg about 4-5 hours prior to the MDMA.

You should expect to feel stimulated by it, and possibly argumentative.
Piracetam does cause crankiness and anxiety in some people for several hours, but there is a crossover point.
Suddenly you will find that colors are brighter, sounds clearer, and your verbal acuity (and desire to speak) go through the ROOF.

Once this crossover occurs, it remains effective for most of the day.
So waiting for this effect and recognizing it will tell you when to take the MDMA.
Don't forget to take a dose afterwards on the chance it will prevent neurotoxic damage that occurs after serotonin levels begin to fall.

Many regular MDMA users have praised Piracetam as returning to them the lost 'magic' of their favorite drug.
They also make statements about it completely eliminating the overwhelming effects of the drug, allowing them to converse more easily with people and dance. They even say it eliminates the comedown in the following day.

Very cool stuff.

For me Piracetam made all the difference during the crippling year of recovery I just got through.
It was like flipping a switch that stopped the 'hyperinnervation of the hypothalamus and loss in the PFC'.
It was a glorious pause button, but no cure.
Each time I stopped taking it the suffering and anxiety returned, quite slowly.

Now I am nearly six months off the stuff and doing quite well.
But I have lost more cognition in the last six months than I did in the first ten.
I know without a doubt that taking more of it, even a small dose, will cause a complete transformation in the way my brain works.
And one day, after my recovery is complete, I may return to using it daily.

I do not think it will cause any damage to an MDMA user.
And I suspect it will protect them.

 

[First Bad Comedown]

Oh yeah...

Body temperature is a direct moderator of serotonin toxicity.
When acute reactions to MDMA occur, which are normally synonymous with Serotonin Syndrome, the very first medical step taken is to remove clothing and apply cold wet rags to the face, neck, chest, back etc.

Even when certain toxic doses of MDMA are used on laboratory animals, lowering ambient room temperature has a measurable impact upon nerve damage.

Many people have claimed that trying to roll in a cold environment significantly reduces the euphoria.
And I would have to agree, as I always made sure I was warm at least while rolling.
But science clearly shows that low ambient temperature attenuates the neurotoxicity of MDMA.

As a general rule you should be cool while rolling.
And if you see someone having difficulty while rolling get them COLD quickly.
At least one person has credited me with saving their life on BL with this advice.

 

[iibansukii]

Wow great information! Thank you very much!! If I have any more questions I'll ask you!!

 

[First Bad Comedown]

You are very welcome.
Now remember what I said about dosage and spacing.

 

[iibansukii]

the problem is, that it's not really possible to find out how much is in each pill.. if I knew, that'll be so useful..

 

[First Bad Comedown]

A high quality digital scale will do it.
That combined with a good reagent test.
Or just spend the $45 and send a tab to pillreports.

They won't tell you the exact quantity of MDMA.
But they will state the entire pill/capsule weight and test for the presence of common adulterants.
Worth the money, since your brain is at stake.

I never EVER would have guessed that my tabs were 250mg a piece (total weight).
Even if some of that is filler, it is FAR beyond the average 70mg MDMA per pill that my friends were taking in the late 90s!
Dosage is so critical with this drug, you owe yourself the scale.

 

[iibansukii]

i mean, I do have a scale that goes to .001g but it's not 100% accurate considering i bought it for like 15$.. i noticed that my mollys were about 150-160 mg but then again, who knows how much its cut... I mean I tested it with a kit too, and it turned dark blue to black pretty fast, but i forgot to check whether it fizzes or not haha..