Health Psychiatric and psychoanalytical use of psychedelics

[mrcraggles]

I find this to be an interesting one. Well firstly...I have to express my cynicism of psychoanalysis generally, I find it all a little too subjective and far too open to researcher influence to be honest. I think it is to be quite illogical (in my opinion) in terms of its theoretical predispositions to psychological research and treatment.

However...what are your thoughts on psychedelic use in the psychiatric field? LSD was obviously legal once...and a drug of interest to psychiatrists all over the world. A lot of psychiatrists claimed it to be miraculous, while others claimed it had no application.

Dr. Timothy Leary researched LSD and Psilocybin during his time at Harvard (before he was kicked out!) and his studies claimed amazing results for the treatment of prison inmates etc...claiming that they were less likely to re-offend by a statistically important majority. His claims were later questioned due to the shit research methods he used that were full of holes.

Personally...my experience with Mushrooms was one of the most significant days of my life and changed me to the day. The day has almost imprinted onto my brain, and the deep...life-changing lessons I learnt that day have made me quite relaxed, empathetic and deep generally. For me...I can see them having some sort of psychiatric application and I believe that it it a ridiculous sin to with-hold these drugs from psychological research.

So anyway...I'll stop my blabbing. Do you think that psychedelics have an application to human psychology and psychiatry?

 

[Damien]

www.maps.org . Just in case.

 

[CrazyDiamond67]

I've read about studies trying to use DMT and shrooms in psychiatric conditions, but many times they result in people having negative experiences. I would think more research has to be done on the nature of the drugs, which is difficult due to their legality.

I've also heard that MDMA has been used by psychiatrists to more easily empathize with their patients... thoughts on that?

 

[mrcraggles]

I think that a lot of drugs probably have some sort of psychiatric application (although not all!) MDMA would be one of them. It broke down family barriers between me and my brother. I think it definitely has applications, and considering it is farrrrrrr less harmful than alcohol...I cannot even begin to understand why it's psychiatric applications aren't being investigated!?

Damien...strangely I was unaware of 'MAPS' so many thanks for that!!

Actually...it's highly probably that in some countries MDMA has been studied for such uses. If anybody can point me in the direction of any articles on the subject then i'd greatly appreciate it (I feel too lazy to look myself right now...although i'm sure I will lol)

 

[Damien]

No problem.

 

[Gormur]

I take LSD more or less medicinally and recreationally. that is, when i have it i will often use everyday and not trip but combat my bipolar and schizotypal..and yea, i've seen improvement in myself. a lot of people with schizophrenia and bipolar like acid. most normal people don't enjoy tripping..they can't handle it or just don't think it's of any use. and really, i don't think it is for everyone...i mean, alcohol fucks me mentally more than anything..i get full blown mania after a binge. but obviously the majority can handle alcohol..so it's acceptable to them.

 

[PsychedelicDoctor]

Well, considering psychiatry has been my intended career path for the last few years (though certainly not definite, otolaryngology is totally fascinating), this is a topic very near and dear to my heart. Unfortunately, I don't have time to give it justice right now but I do want to say that I think MDMA would be a terrific tool for couple's therapy or group sessions. Soon I will post why i'm in favor of a role for psychedelics in mental health and the current state of the US health-care system.

 

[mrcraggles]

Gormur...you take LSD daily? Honestly??

PsychedelicDoctor I look forward to hearing your more involved response.

I also am interested in your 'couples' application of MDMA.

 

[a thing]

I think that a lot of drugs probably have some sort of psychiatric application (although not all!) MDMA would be one of them. It broke down family barriers between me and my brother. I think it definitely has applications, and considering it is farrrrrrr less harmful than alcohol...I cannot even begin to understand why it's psychiatric applications aren't being investigated!?

Pharmaceutical companies make money on mental illnesses lasting as long as possible. It would not make financial sense to sell customers drugs that they only need a few doses of when they can addict their customers.

 

[mrcraggles]

PsychedelicDoctor

PS. Neuropsychology is my career path...so I share your love lol

a thing

PLEASE...don't get me started on pharmaceutical companies. Their milking of drugs for monetary gain goes wayyyy beyond psychiatric drugs and it makes me sick to the stomach.

 

[emperorofusa]

I find this to be an interesting one. Well firstly...I have to express my cynicism of psychoanalysis generally, I find it all a little too subjective and far too open to researcher influence to be honest. I think it is to be quite illogical (in my opinion) in terms of its theoretical predispositions to psychological research and treatment.

The psychoanalytic theory is just one of many theories involved in psychology. Each of these theories has it strong points and its weaknesses. We have yet to find one theory which encompasses everything and helps to explain everything. If you do not agree with one theory do not knock all of psychology. Psychology saved my life and based on my life experience many of the ideas involved in this discipline should be taken seriously.

However...what are your thoughts on psychedelic use in the psychiatric field? LSD was obviously legal once...and a drug of interest to psychiatrists all over the world. A lot of psychiatrists claimed it to be miraculous, while others claimed it had no application.

I believe that psychedelics may help us to better understand mental illnesses and the human mind in general. I believe that any research in this area should be conducted by qualified professionals only. There may be something there with psychedelics; conversely there may be nothing there at all and psychedelics might just be an interesting way to f--ck with our brain chemistry.

Dr. Timothy Leary researched LSD and Psilocybin during his time at Harvard (before he was kicked out!) and his studies claimed amazing results for the treatment of prison inmates etc...claiming that they were less likely to re-offend by a statistically important majority. His claims were later questioned due to the shit research methods he used that were full of holes.

I have read about these studies and they do seem to be quite interesting. Unfortunately, these studies were only the very beginning of what could have been, and since research is now banned on the compounds involved in his experiments there is no real way to say whether there was really something there or not.

Personally...my experience with Mushrooms was one of the most significant days of my life and changed me to the day. The day has almost imprinted onto my brain, and the deep...life-changing lessons I learnt that day have made me quite relaxed, empathetic and deep generally. For me...I can see them having some sort of psychiatric application and I believe that it it a ridiculous sin to with-hold these drugs from psychological research.

Psychedelics do not make anyone more artistic, more intelligent, or enlightened. There have been many psychological studies into this already. I, too, have had very memorable and meaningful psychedelic experiences. An experience is an experience and each of us can attribute special meaning to any type of experience.

So anyway...I'll stop my blabbing. Do you think that psychedelics have an application to human psychology and psychiatry?

I believe that there should be more research conducted to determine whether or not research into the potential benefits of psychedelics in regards to psychology is warranted.

I also wish to state that I believe you have a very biased objective here, especially when one takes into account that you believe the pharmaceutical companies are only in it for the money and that they are evil. Countless lives would be lost if the pharmaceutical companies did not exist. Your comment in regards to this subject seems indicative of a common misconception relating to psychology and modern medicine in general. I cannot understand how you would choose a career path in neuropsychology if you were opposed to such modern developments in medicine.

 

[mrcraggles]

emperorofusa

My knocking of psychoanalysis does not mean that I'm knocking all of psychology. I'm very much in love with psychology! I think though that psychoanalysis had its limits...more so than any other psychological disciple.

Psychedelics do not make anyone more artistic, more intelligent, or enlightened. There have been many psychological studies into this already. I, too, have had very memorable and meaningful psychedelic experiences. An experience is an experience and each of us can attribute special meaning to any type of experience.''

- whether it is a generalised life experience or a psychedelic one...we are affected by them whether we want to be or not. Considering that psychedelics force us into a state of consciousness that seriously challenges out everyday perception of the world...I think they are highly likely to have a profound affect on us. What studies are you talking about?

I also wish to state that I believe you have a very biased objective here, especially when one takes into account that you believe the pharmaceutical companies are only in it for the money and that they are evil. Countless lives would be lost if the pharmaceutical companies did not exist. Your comment in regards to this subject seems indicative of a common misconception relating to psychology and modern medicine in general. I cannot understand how you would choose a career path in neuropsychology if you were opposed to such modern developments in medicine.

You've completely misinterpreted what I have said. Just because I may be cynical of the pharmaceutical world to some extent, and critical of the capital drive behind some of these drugs does NOT mean that I do not have faith in a large proportion of the drugs available. My statements really aren't to be thrown out of proportion. I'm very interested in psychopharmacology.

What I have said (and I have said barely anything!) does not even hint at any massively overt disliking of developments in medicine. To the contrary, I am very interested.

I'm not saying that psychoanalysis doesn't have its benefits either. It clearly does. I'd be stupid to say otherwise. Still...I remain critical of it...

 

[Gormur]

Gormur...you take LSD daily? Honestly??

when i have it, yes. i don't always have it tho.

 

[mrcraggles]

And you have it at low dose...to the point that it doesn't have notable psychedelic or visual effects?

And it what way do you think it helps with your problems? Sorry for the questions, I just find it interesting...

 

[swilow]

^MrCraggles, I merged some of your posts together- theres no need for multiple posts, just edit one of your own.

But on topic, I think pschedelics MAY have SOME benefits for SOME people when used as a medicine.

DMT would be my first and foremost candidate, as I believe it contains all the elements of a full-on psychedelic trip, is short, but most importantly, seems to effect the human brain in a very positive way. I know that wehn I smoke a lot of DMT, I am generally anxiety and depression free, but with no feeling of fakeness or drugged-ness about it. I find it (and DPT to a lesser extent) reset my mind to its defualt, accepting state. Of course, in time my defences build back up, so whether any psychedelic has any actual benefits in the long term is uncertain. I do believe that a controlled traumatic experience is essential (well IMO) for people with existing trauma. While the gates that are unocked can be unpleasant, its better then having a locked gate yet knowing that it will one day blow the fuck open and sweep your mind clear of reason. DMT allowed me to directly confront panic and anxiety issues, because for that 20minutes, I am simply existing, and must handle whatever is thrown at me, and accept it with love and gratitude.

Psychedelics do not make anyone more artistic, more intelligent, or enlightened. There have been many psychological studies into this already. I, too, have had very memorable and meaningful psychedelic experiences. An experience is an experience and each of us can attribute special meaning to any type of experience.

Well, the recent psilocybin/methylphenidate double blind study directly pointed to mushrooms (psilocybin) as eleicitng a mystical experience in those that way inclined. People involved in this study directly mentioned tht the drug had increased the sense of contact with god- which is not something that we encounter in our day to day lives.

 

[fastandbulbous]

Humphrey Osmond had a fairly high success rate in treating alcoholics with LSD (higher than other methods), but this was damaged by some trials elsewhere that involved just giving alcoholics a fuck off dose of LSD & then locking them in a room with no therapist present. They reported results that were vastly different to Osmond, but that's hardly surprising seeing Osmond & another researcher (can't remember name - possibly Sydney Cohen?) spent time guiding the patient through the experience to help resolve the issues that lead to their alcohol dependance. Giving someone 600-1500ug of LSD then locking them in a room on their own is a recipie for creating alcoholics, not curing them.

Leary's expt was fucked up because he did things like find jobs for those prisoners given psychedelic therapy, but did fuck all for the control group. Obviously this wasn't a true trial of pyrely psychedelic therapy (it's things like this that are essentiually behind why Leary turned out to be a nightmare for psychedelic research. For someone who had so much to do with psychedelics, he had an enormous ego that ended up queering the pitch for everyone afterwards.Research in this area can well do without such self serving egomaniacs)

Well, the recent psilocybin/methylphenidate double blind study directly pointed to mushrooms (psilocybin) as eleicitng a mystical experience in those that way inclined. People involved in this study directly mentioned tht the drug had increased the sense of contact with god- which is not something that we encounter in our day to day lives.

Isn't that Pankhe's Good Friday expt?

 

[mrcraggles]

Swilow

I'm new to the forums, so I'm just learning, I take your advise on-board.

It is so absolutely strange that you bring up the subject of trauma. For the past hour I have been writing a post about how comparable Post-traumatic Stress Disorder is to Psychedelic experience...but things kept getting in the way, and as a result it kept getting deleted! (Not saying that you were comparing the two precisely)

Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder often happens when somebody experiences an intense state of unpleasant emotion (to the the absolute least...that definition honestly lacks any credible meaning, and probably undermines the extent to which PTSD affects people) I by no way mean to offend anybody by this post...it is highly speculative etc. I honestly don't underestimate PTSD.

However...I draw my comparisons on the following. PTSE has been shown to have long lasting affects on an individuals psychology because of the intensely nasty experiences. Psychedelics can bring about intense emotional experiences....some of these extraordinarily bad...can psychedelics bring about a form of PTSD?

But the question that is very interesting to me lies within the opposite experience...can massively, unbelievably brilliant psychedelic experiences also lay down some sort of long-lasting 'imprint' (comparable to PTSD in some senses) and in doing so leave a long-lasting 'beautiful' imprint which affects your psychology and behaviour?

 

[fastandbulbous]

^ Yes that's basically what Shulgin classifies as a ++++ experience

 

[nanobrain]

psychedelic psychotherapy is far from dead, while still extremely risky for the practitioner due to legal status of catalysts utilised, those in the know know and technical, methodological and experimental approaches continue evolving.

the sacrament used locally for psychotherapeutic work is a smokeable Ayahuasca blend aka Changa (props to Folias) standardised to 50% DMT by weight with the other fraction composed of b.caapi vine shavings for powerful yet transient MAOI effects.

with one-time administration, roughly 125-150 mg DMT per bong bowl smoked in a single hit, with proper intent, the Medicine can resolve, in a healing, forgiving and natural way, treatment and therapy resistant issues the patient may have been carrying around for decades.

The Secret Chief I and II by Myron J. Stolaroff are suggested essential reading for those contemplating the field.

 

[swilow]

Isn't that Pankhe's Good Friday expt?

Nope, this was was done in 2006, http://www.csp.org/psilocybin/Hopkins-CSP-Psilocybin2008.pdf
MrCraggles, thats cool- just pointing out what you can do to make your posts more concise.

As to your statemtn, I defintely believe that a positive 'traumatic' experience can leave one with recurring feelings of overwhelming happiness and joy and peace. Probably the term Post-Traumatic Bliss (dis)Order should be used And there are, of course, levels of intesnity re: post traumatic stress. I know I ramped up my own anxiety terribly after my first encounter with salvia; I don't want to belittle the clinical disorder, PTSD, but I had flashbacky symptoms for months after that. Only more salvia helped really as well.

I think that, to the human body and mind, even a positive trip is 'traumatic' in the sense that it can't ever be forgotten; and its effects will alter your life. But "positive" trauma can negate other more negative forms of trauma, or at least offer a different perspective towards dark events.