Psychedelics

[murphythecat]

For me, Id say that a breakthrough of DMT is not a really good teacher, but its still very spiritual. My first DMT breakthrough changed my life. It was my first ego death experience and it definitely showed me stuff Im so grateful and gave me the direction I needed for my life.

I really am grateful for what psychedelic showed me during all those years and still show me today, but the work needs to be done sober. Integration is key and we must integrate the insight they gave us in our life. but no matter the trip, I come back with precious insights into where I am in my life and what I need to do next.
I really see the plants as spiritual teachers. Mescaline and shrooms at least. Id agree that DMT is less of a teacher, more like a spiritual catapult. DMT needs harmaline/caapi/rue taken orally to become a teacher I think. Ive never done ayuasca though. Even low dose of psychedelic are for me spiritual. spiritual in the sense that it brings me insight into my reality which wouldn't have emerged in my mind without it and insight that if I put in practice do really brings harmony and peace.

 

[Ninae]

With MXE there can come a point where you lose control of what happens (when you're so mentally decapitated you can do nothing to influence the experience).

One time it happened I first found myself in some kind angel kingdom with my mother, everything had a white glow around it and I felt like I did as a child, still it was scary as I realised I was so far "out" or so far from anything resembling what this is. Then I "fell" down to some kind of hell and there were troll-like female demons dancing in circles around me, laughing in an insanse way because they enjoyed torturing me and just the fact that I was there. It was pretty awful, but then I realised I could pull myself out of it with my will and sat up and shook it off.

I think what happened was simply that I foucused my awareness on two different places in my own being, and the outside world corresponding to it, or pretty much polar opposites. Wouldn't say I enjoyed it, you're truly at the mercy of whatever happens in that state. Even the first part of it was so crazy I feel a bit sick and get a horrible feeling in my stomach just thinking of it, it was definitely something "illegal" the way I feel it. But still wasn't all that bad considering what I believe bad trips can be.

 

[zuvulu]

I think that there have been toxic myths which have used the natural dynamic nature of reality in a dualistic way. So for example, we all know that we can feel good or bad and all the feelings into between. We know there can be hellish experiences in life both physically and psychologically, and we all know there is always change. Admittedly there are people with terrible diseases and all of a suddent their disease may not chnage to health, but even in suffering there is change and there is always death which is a BIG changer

However in what I call toxic myths they have created fearful ideas that there are heavenly and hellish places where there is no change. So if you were to go to heaven it is for ever and same is so for hell, and that belief has caused so much evil in the world with believers willing to do anything not to got to hell even if they end up doing evil which they think is good---like in the 'Holy Inquisition' when they persecuted, tortured and mass murdered people because they believed doing so was good and would get them heaven

But as you saw, in psychedelic experiences there can be both heavenly and hellish experiences revealing that our psyche can experience all forms of changing experience, and the crucial insight is that these extremes of experience are in reality polar relational dynamic wholes. This is THE major insight and integration I got my early post LSD trips when I went onto discover a book by Alan Watts titled Cloudhidden Whereabouts Unknown

Like he says you not only cannlt have light without darkness, you cannot know light without darkness and vice verse

 

[Ninae]

In honour of my classic Bjork posts, I thought I would show you this adorable clip of Bjork on weed/acid/sober, exploring the inside of a TV-set.

 

[Samulson]

[video]https://youtu.be/zo70DJiMBlI[/video]

Just taking off on some 1p and al lad now, come along, this music is amazing.

 

[Samulson]

And now I bid you adieu, I have many journeys to take this night.

May love, light, and life always be with you.

 

[Ninae]

May you have a fair journey.

 

[murphythecat]

I think that there have been toxic

Like he says you not only cannlt have light without darkness, you cannot know light without darkness and vice verse

definitely.
but I think theres the possibility of light without any darkness. dont you?

 

[snortmdma]

I am 25 and I am getting very spiritual, psychedelics may have led to it, i used to use them. My spirituality can be summed up by this simple phrase: everything loves something, so everything will always be righteous

 

[swilow]

definitely.
but I think theres the possibility of light without any darkness. dont you?

No. I think you must have both. They are non-dual aspects of the same thing.
Imo.

 

[herbavore]

I use to do a drawing exercise with my students to teach them about shading. We would look at a piece of high contrast art with heavy darks and bright lights and see black and white, darkness and light. Then we can digitally zoom in and see the continuum of endless grays--where does darkness start, where does light start? Where do they begin to exist or cease to exist? It isn't easy to answer those when you get close enough but very easy to answer from a distance. I love the way this simple art lesson relates to just about everything in my whole life.

 

[Samulson]

[video]https://youtu.be/zo70DJiMBlI[/video]

Just taking off on some 1p and al lad now, come along, this music is amazing.

Just wanted to add that during this song, I saw a truly amazing visual experience within my mind's eye.

There was one point where the sound had formed into an extremely faceted revolving diamond shape that was somewhat metallic and somewhat crystalline.
Then the facets unfolded into individual mechanical diamond shapes that were further unfolding mechanically.
As they unfolded, they were spinning outwards and singing in pure mechanical joy at being a part of this action.
As if there entire purpose in existence was to do just that.

The sheer amount of creativity, detail, and sheer power, that the subconscious mind is instantly capable of putting into the most brief and transitory imagery is something that I always find both fascinating and awe inspiring.

 

[swilow]

^Sounds like an intense experience. Nothing like a psychedelic to basically tell you who's running the show, and its not our little ego-judgers. Think about what the mind is doing here, giving substance to valueless input to the extent that a world of incredible complexity has arisen all around you and inside you.

I use to do a drawing exercise with my students to teach them about shading. We would look at a piece of high contrast art with heavy darks and bright lights and see black and white, darkness and light. Then we can digitally zoom in and see the continuum of endless grays--where does darkness start, where does light start? Where do they begin to exist or cease to exist? It isn't easy to answer those when you get close enough but very easy to answer from a distance. I love the way this simple art lesson relates to just about everything in my whole life.

That's a great and wisdom-filled lesson there Herbavore

In this world, there's very little of "purity". You simply cannot have half of something; you only get all or nothing. Darkness and light, good/evil, all exist as 'greys' throughout this reality. It used to bother my girlfriend a lot, that there is very little 'untainted' in this universe, and that her 'impurity' might overwhelm and remove her ability to see things truly. She has too look at everything through the mud of sentiment and value. Even on a human scale, there are very few joys that don't have some sorrow in them. I just feel that the sooner we cease expecting binary choices from the universes, we will probably be happy(er). The continuum of greys is virtually infinite.

 

[murphythecat]

^Sounds like an intense experience. Nothing like a psychedelic to basically tell you who's running the show, and its not our little ego-judgers. Think about what the mind is doing here, giving substance to valueless input to the extent that a world of incredible complexity has arisen all around you and inside you.



That's a great and wisdom-filled lesson there Herbavore

In this world, there's very little of "purity". You simply cannot have half of something; you only get all or nothing. Darkness and light, good/evil, all exist as 'greys' throughout this reality. It used to bother my girlfriend a lot, that there is very little 'untainted' in this universe, and that her 'impurity' might overwhelm and remove her ability to see things truly. She has too look at everything through the mud of sentiment and value. Even on a human scale, there are very few joys that don't have some sorrow in them. I just feel that the sooner we cease expecting binary choices from the universes, we will probably be happy(er). The continuum of greys is virtually infinite.

it seems you think light and darkness is part of the same. I understand what you mean here of course, but this is not my interpretation.

light and dark is part of the same unity because it still exist in you... until you are without any darkness, light is unable to take everything in control as it cant be everything because of ''you''.
so, true light cannot be observed. if you observe it, your not ''it'' and darkness will also be around.

 

[ForEverAfter]

As a Buddhist, don't you believe that everything is impermanent in life?
Night becomes day; summer becomes winter; awake -> asleep; birth -> death.

You might be able to attain a state of "pure light", through meditation.
But, you won't be able to maintain that for the rest of your life.

And, the fact that you have to use darkness (as a reference) to describe enlightenment, just backs up the fact that they must co-exist.
It is a relative term.

Without darkness, there is no light.
It's not a question of interpretation.
If there is no darkness, there cannot be light.
If you do without one, you have to do without the other.
(Even if you believe that the absence of both is positive.)

 

[smitty704]

^ You said that some people might not be meant to experience the spiritual side of psychedelics, but perhaps some people aren't meant to experience the spiritual side of dissociatives or opiates? Or, indeed, something non drug-related? Like religion? Or art? While I agree that psychedelics can be a useful tool, they are - more often than not - used for the opposite reason. To suggest that they might be the primary tool is baseless, IMO. Unless you selectively chose not to apply the logic that stems from your own observations -> If you recognize that you're capable of experiencing something that somebody else is not capable of, for whatever reason, then the same should apply in reverse. It's like Christianity calling all other religions false, and vice-versa. Altering your perspective should, I think, ideally, help you understand the limitations of your own. To say that you "couldn't imagine life (without being able to spiritually benefit from psychedelics)" is like saying that you "couldn't imagine life (without being able to benefit from Jesus Christ)". If psychedelics truly help you understand the interconnectedness between all life forms, then why allow them - in any way - to disconnect you from others? The divide between drug-user and non drug-user is illusory. It makes no sense to separate ourselves from the sober world, in terms of our superior ability to gain insight into how we are all connected... I have had DMT and I, honestly, don't think it has much spiritual value relative to other substances. You can benefit from witnessing the limitations of your perspective, like I said before. In other words: sometimes it is helpful to be "snapped out of it", so to speak; there is a time and a place for a good old slap across your (cosmic) face and it is DMT. But there's not much to be learnt and it's all over before it began. In order to benefit, considering how overwhelming DMT is, the experience needs to be longer. (There is a direct proportional relationship, between the length of an experience and how confusing it is, that determines whether or not it's beneficial.) But, it doesn't need to be as confusing or hallucinatory in the first place, like the psychedelic experience. Opiates - for example - allow you to connect with the universe, without being overwhelmed, over-thinking anything or (potentially) getting confused. I've met a lot of anxious, confused ex-psychedelic users. People that have clearly been harmed by psychedelics. Either physically, spiritually or psychologically. Or a combination of the three. Long-term, people tend to fall apart with any drug from my observations. It takes longer with some, then others. Some people might have one tab of acid and flip out. Another person might have 500 before they eventually flip. The vast, vast majority of people don't make it in the end. And time will tell on those remaining. Heroin is peaceful and spiritual. When you're on it, everything makes sense. When you come of it, your retain some of that peace. Because you remember a time when it all made sense, like you do with psychedelics. If you stay on too long, you'll lose it altogether. And, either way, in the end neither the average ex-psychedelic users or the average ex-heroin/opiate users can explain what it is that they remember. You say you understand the universe, through psychedelics. But, can you explain the universe? Or do you just remember a time when it made sense?

I'll keep it simple, I feel that psychedelics are the main tool to experience and explore spirituality for MYSELF. Everyone is different. I simply couldn't imagine life without the magic of psychedelics. Although the majority of people on this planet live their lives not ever trying them even once. I'm just stating my opinion, I don't have all the answers. Opinions are like a**holes, everybody has one .

 

[murphythecat]

definitely, the states of meditation are also impermanent, but the insight you gain from them are not (if put into actions). summer-winter, life death, its all a cycle, samsara and its the whole point of buddhism: to get out of that cycle of life and death, to go beyond the illusion. samsara is always changing, impermanenet, unsatisfying. nirvana is permanenent liberation and fully satisfying.

meditation purify. as long as your dirty, you need purification. but I think that indeed, once fully clean, darkness will never enter back: and this is the permanent states of nirvana.

all the monks I know stress this: that the meditative absorption(jhanas), no matter how pleasant they are, are also impermanenet and conditioned by concentration. they are not the goal of the practice, but the mean. they provide insight that will allow one to realize enlightenment.
realize is the good word because of course, we are already everything we want/need and can be, we just dont know yet. hence why meditation is also called science of the mind. because its with the mind that you will realize/discover the truths of your reality. its only once you know the truths that you can seek liberation. as long as you dont know what creates what, theres no way to even know the way out.

Without darkness, there is no light.
It's not a question of interpretation.
If there is no darkness, there cannot be light.
If you do without one, you have to do without the other.
(Even if you believe that the absence of both is positive.)
but, couldnt we say that true light cannot contain any darkness? that as long as theres darkness in that light, its not ''really'' fully light...

another way to say it, id say that darkness exist as long as its in ''you'' (as long as you see it as dark or light) I dont think darkness, nor light, exist without any condition. the condition needs a observer to decide whether its dark or light. this is when you OBSERVE in the OUTER world.. each time you observe something in reality and think its dark or light, this is a illusion as its ego driven. however, what you see as darkness in YOU, this is most likely true. thats why I think that we should concentrate on the darkness we all have inside of us as this is the only darkness we can light.

another way to see this is: if you observe, you will find light and darkness. the fact to observe something creates duality. literally.

duality imo is simply a illusion. light and darkness is part of the same illusion of duality, of separation (of me and you even). when theres only unity, darkness or light doesn't mean anything.

As a Buddhist, don't you believe that everything is impermanent in life?
Night becomes day; summer becomes winter; awake -> asleep; birth -> death.

You might be able to attain a state of "pure light", through meditation.
But, you won't be able to maintain that for the rest of your life.

And, the fact that you have to use darkness (as a reference) to describe enlightenment, just backs up the fact that they must co-exist.
It is a relative term.

Without darkness, there is no light.
It's not a question of interpretation.
If there is no darkness, there cannot be light.
If you do without one, you have to do without the other.
(Even if you believe that the absence of both is positive.)

 

[swilow]

but, couldnt we say that true light cannot contain any darkness? that as long as there's darkness in that light, its not ''really'' fully light..

"True light" is not a real value. There is no impurity in light. That is its nature. Light is a real thing, discrete wave-like particles :D. It is 'fused' with darkness. Darkness is the absence of light; it only exists in relation to light. Further, a universe with no relativity of states is the essence of formlessness. If it was all light, it would be homogenous akin to hypothesised "heat death" state where all region of spacetime is qualitatively the same. It would be difficult to observe anything whatsoever.

I think that you might be referring to allegorical darkness i.e. impurity, negativity, ignorance, etc. Remember though that these allegories are based on the attributes of real things. It cannot be an effective symbol or metaphor if it actually doesn't share major qualities with its real-life counterpart.

another way to say it, id say that darkness exist as long as its in ''you'' (as long as you see it as dark or light) I dont think darkness, nor light, exist without any condition. the condition needs a observer to decide whether its dark or light. this is when you OBSERVE in the OUTER world.. each time you observe something in reality and think its dark or light, this is a illusion as its ego driven. however, what you see as darkness in YOU, this is most likely true. that's why I think that we should concentrate on the darkness we all have inside of us as this is the only darkness we can light.

Maybe instead of trying to destroy your inner darkness, it could be beneficial to approach it and make it work for you. As you say, if you see aspects of yourself that are dark, it is you that has determined that; these qualities are valueless before that. You can manipulate your darkness into becoming something valuable and yet still itself. Again, it seems the mainstream religious desire to see humans as impure and degraded just confuses me; I've had to work hard to unlearn that. It often seems to me that the things many religions see as dark are simply our animal instinct. Its inescapable; condemning it is futile. IMO.

Darkness has always appealed to me though. In many ways, it is simply that which is unknown.

another way to see this is: if you observe, you will find light and darkness. the fact to observe something creates duality. literally.
duality imo is simply a illusion. light and darkness is part of the same illusion of duality, of separation (of me and you even). when there's only unity, darkness or light doesn't mean anything.

I think that is exactly what people are saying. In physics, you have the idea of cause and effect, where we seperate these two qualities. But if you consider any action- I hit a key causing a letter to appear on my screen; you see that they are actually not seperate things at all and, indeed, cannot be seperated . The same thing is true with light and darkness; they are non-dual aspects of the same thing.

 

[murphythecat]

of course, when I say light and darkness, I dont mean it literally.

"True light" is not a real value. There is no impurity in light. That is its nature. Light is a real thing, discrete wave-like particles :D. It is 'fused' with darkness. Darkness is the absence of light; it only exists in relation to light. Further, a universe with no relativity of states is the essence of formlessness. If it was all light, it would be homogenous akin to hypothesised "heat death" state where all region of spacetime is qualitatively the same. It would be difficult to observe anything whatsoever.

I think that you might be referring to allegorical darkness i.e. impurity, negativity, ignorance, etc. Remember though that these allegories are based on the attributes of real things. It cannot be an effective symbol or metaphor if it actually doesn't share major qualities with its real-life counterpart.



Maybe instead of trying to destroy your inner darkness, it could be beneficial to approach it and make it work for you. As you say, if you see aspects of yourself that are dark, it is you that has determined that; these qualities are valueless before that. You can manipulate your darkness into becoming something valuable and yet still itself. Again, it seems the mainstream religious desire to see humans as impure and degraded just confuses me; I've had to work hard to unlearn that. It often seems to me that the things many religions see as dark are simply our animal instinct. Its inescapable; condemning it is futile. IMO.

Darkness has always appealed to me though. In many ways, it is simply that which is unknown.



I think that is exactly what people are saying. In physics, you have the idea of cause and effect, where we seperate these two qualities. But if you consider any action- I hit a key causing a letter to appear on my screen; you see that they are actually not seperate things at all and, indeed, cannot be seperated . The same thing is true with light and darkness; they are non-dual aspects of the same thing.

about light and darkness, I think we agree from what you said here !
darkness is anything that doesnt brings pleasant abiding. each time you hate, judge negatively, think too highly of yourself, kill, lie, compare yourself to others, ect, this creates suffering automatically and its dark no matter what you may think about it.

imo, dark stuff in us cannot be manipulated into something positive, we have to be aware of that darkness, to not let it stay for to long, and replace the darkness by light. but its not as simple as it sounds

about our animal instinct, sure! but there still instinct that are detrimental to our happiness and we dont know, until we experience something drastically different (meditative states, psychedelic drugs ) and then you understand with that experience how wrong we acted before. without that experience which brings the insight, which psychedelic brings easily, it may be hard to really see that part of us we couldn't even see before.

please state me things you consider inescapable in our animal instincts...

about the cause and effect, I'm not following you here. you are comparing cause and effect with light and dark.
cause and effect is the process
dark and light is very specific feeling/thinking that will affect you directly and can only be separated and never together.

for example, each time you hate. you can observe what that creates in your mind. I mean, can you love and hate at the same time? no, you have to love, then let go of love, then perceive hate. what I said is that I think that you can stop altogether the perception of darkness and only perceive light at all time.

I think that as long as we think/observe/ judge outside reality we are always in a bit of darkness as what motivates us to think, judge, observe isnt as ''light'' as we think it is and those desires are much more poignant in ourselves then we want to really realize: basically, what we think we want to do in this moment is more related to obsession then control. To think that we are in control of ourselve is the most ridiculous thing yet most people think they are in control of their lives
we are not in control of ourselves and so dark can enter and DO enter because are totally unaware of it almost as we are so tuned to it and habituated, we do not see its detrimental effect anymore.

 

[Pharcyde]

I dunno if it's spiritual so to speak. Psychs let me go to my special place and it makes me happy. And going to my special place helps me in my daily life. So spiritual or not, you could construe it as some form of something.