Psychedelics are about life not death

[Solipsis]

Really? It's not usually that I pick up on such a vibe of people judging each other like that in PD. And that's a really personal way to say it, too.

But I can understand another way of putting it: if for example you have only ever taken mushrooms at 1 gram doses max, it's absolutely fine but it makes it less likely that you had a 'life & death' trip. Mind you, it's not impossible... some people get NDE's sober (which is kind of incredible).

Also regardless of what kind of a person it makes you, in my experience there is 'feeling more alive than ever', and there is becoming convinced that you will not survive the night and then when you do survive after all, that afterglow is incomparable... such a thankfulness to be alive. So unexpected and profound.

Now I'm not advocating that people must do this for some esteem that comes from others, actually PD frowns upon dicksizing quite a bit. I don't want people bragging about crazy doses they take. Expertise shown by others does excite me, but that's my own silly elitism and I try to keep it to myself.
What I really like to hear is people who have a wonderful and responsible way to treat psychedelics the way they should be treated, make it special, use things like meditation and other methods to get especially meaningful experiences and then take the time to integrate trips and value it.

 

[Ismene]

What I really like to hear is people who have a wonderful and responsible way to treat psychedelics the way they should be treated, make it special, use things like meditation and other methods to get especially meaningful experiences and then take the time to integrate trips and value it.

While I respect this, particularly if it's in the persons nature originally to enjoy meditation then that's fine.

But I think psychedelics stand alone - you don't need meditation or any other manmade religion/mindset etc. You don't need to work for 20 years before you deserve to have a good time.

The only relationship that really matters is the one between the person and the experience. What you make of it after the experience is over is what you make of it after the experience is over. Rationalising it and trying to claim it's something like meditation might help some but it certainly never helped me.

To me, psychedelics are the complete and utter opposite of all the meditation, "calming your mind", buddhist principles I'd spent a lifetime reading about. Psychedelics are explosive, life-affirming euphoria.

 

[mocnowidno]

I wouldn't agree with you that they are opposite, since there are no polarities after all and IMHO seeing reality from perspective of polarities may be a dead end.

And that is the same for life/death, since both birth and death are part of holistic worldy cycle of existence. And you cannot seperate them. What is subject to birth, is subject to death, Constant flux of matter and consciousness. That is why calling some type of experience "ego <death>" may by misleading, since it is not death, it is not destroying and killing "Self" - rather transcendence and rebirth of it. And fully integrated experience of the process of psycho-spiritual rebirth generally gives individual completely new reverence for life. Affirmation of every single while they have been blessed with. It leads to harmony.

As for meditation -calming mind is just basis for more advanced practice. The image that comes to most people mind when they see/hear word "meditation" is relaxation, calmness. Just sitting to calm the mind. But that is not the end of meditation's potential, that is just beginning of it. When you have already calmed your body and mind, then you can proceed to work with your breath, visualise chakra system etc. And certain techniques and methods to do it can give really extreme results. After time experience on meditation will become more and more profound. And more extreme. One, by meditating, can experience same level of depth, as for example smoking DMT. But when you meditate the experience tends to be more clear and more pure. That is the difference between meditating and tripping - trip is just temporary insight. But when you meditate.... And meditate. And meditate... You can maintan that pure bliss and state for longer period of time, and easily can go back to what you've elaborated thus far just by sitting down and concentrating for a while. When one have patience and meditates a lot, and does it properly and efficiently, one's consciousness begins to get accustomed to entering state of deep trance. The difference between trance and sober state is slowly disappearing. That is why monks/yogis who are "real-deal" are generally in state of bliss in every single moment.

For us, people who are not tibetan monks/yogis, I think combining meditation, breathwork and trips is very efficient option : )

 

[JackARoe]

Sorry for the long posts 8)

No apologies Solipsis. You've been posting some real gems lately. All great info that is being written so thanks for that.

Acually, good thread with some great ideas going back and forth regardless if people agree with the ideas or not.

 

[medical_meccanica]

Death is when everything stops.

If you think this is so, then considering death is like considering infinity. It IS a daunting concept, that you are here one minute and then gone the next - here for a very short time, gone forever. But it is the 'forever' part that is especially exhilarating for me, and even when I am sober it can push me into a strange place to contemplate the infinite reality that 'I' (being medical_meccanica) am a part of, temporarily.

If I know that my eyes will not see beyond the date they die, then anything beyond that point is absolutely possible. How exciting to be an active part of the creation of all those possibilities! Sure, it is a little bit like planting a tree that I will never see finished, but so have countless other people before me, and so will countless other people after me. Why? Well, that's the ultimate question, to which everyone has their own answer. But I don't think you can arrive at the answer (or even arrive at the question) without some contemplation of death.

What could be more life-affirming than knowing one is going to die? What could be more liberating than knowing I am dying every moment and becoming whoever I want to be in the next life - this life? Ending and starting right now.

Ego, or 'self,' is conceptual. So when you experience ego-death, you are really experiencing the destruction of your idea of who-you-think-you-are. It's pretty hard to get along in the world of humans without an idea of who-you-think-you-are, so you create a new one. You can do that consciously or unconsciously, either way, the ego-death has changed the idea of who-you-think-you-are to a new idea. This is why Leary and other people talk about the liberation that ego-death provides. You can literally know yourself as a new person, and therefore BE a new person.

Not everybody needs psychedelics to do this, but they seem to work!

 

[mocnowidno]

Yeah, they work indeed. But it is better to use them in genuine therapeutical setting, since, usually - reaching the ego-death trip isn't case of one single trip, but more than one that are usually connected with domain, that Stan Grof has called "basic perinatal matrices". And that is very traumatic and shocking material.

And we should not forget that ego death experience is usually connected with, or unlocks potential to, deep transpersonal mystical experiences, that tends to develop new level of respect for all creation - many among the individuals who reach that domain develop deep ecological and humanitarian concerns. That is truly most promising method (psychedelics/holotropic breathwork) in psychotherapy.

 

[Ismene]

What could be more life-affirming than knowing one is going to die? What could be more liberating than knowing I am dying every moment and becoming whoever I want to be in the next life - this life? Ending and starting right now.

Do you feel that way about the death of loved ones tho meccanica? I find the death of loved ones deeply depressing. I get your point about death being something you can think about to make the most of your life tho.

 

[medical_meccanica]

Confronting the mortality of loved ones can be very difficult - but the experience also has the potential to unlock a sense of mystery and deep reverence. In the past I have been completely remorseful of time 'wasted' in relationships that deserved much more respect and effort, and vowed to myself that I would dedicate myself fully to those I love.

The contemplation of the death of loved ones can be especially overwhelming because it is stark proof of the infinity that we are a part of. The physical person you once knew and could spend time with is gone, forever. And that tricky ultimate 'Why?' is often brought into full focus. 'Why did they have to die?' or 'What is the point of knowing someone if they will eventually die and be gone?'

And for me, 'Why this thing?' quickly leads to 'Why anything?' or 'Why Everything?'

This can be an extremely liberating question to ask on the personal level - especially if you can realize the freedom that you have in answering it.

And, as mocnowidno mentioned, it can also lead to a very mystical experience on the transpersonal level - because when you ask 'Why?', the mere existence of anything can seem absolutely extraordinary and life itself can become wonderfully precious.

 

[Solipsis]

From a personal perspective, emotionally connective, yes it's about as harsh as it gets and few things are as painful and ubiquitous...
but from a universal perspective it's all just dust in the wind and what Chemical Wizard said is directly derived from physical laws.
I've come to see both perspectives and try to integrate them, for me it feels right. And yes this is coming from someone who lost loved ones.