Psychedelics and Shamanism

[Ismene]

I like Terence but it's worth taking a step back and examining his claims a little closer. There's a drawing he always prints in his books of a bloke with what are allegedly "mushrooms" coming from him. It looks impressive until you find out that drawing was actually done by his wife of a real cave painting, and when you look at the real cave painting it's a lot less convincing. Terence had an agenda and the truth wasn't always the most important thing to him.

 

[High Yogi]

Please read the above post (not mine) about making masturbatory speeches. Please at least attempt to justify your claims about the link to the spirit world rather than assuming them as already affirmed, because you're not going to convince anyone who doesn't believe in shamanism this way. You know why we don't believe in shamanism? Because not all of us believe in a spirit world that is the "real world."



You think we don't know who the ayahuasca shamans are? Please. Now, this:



This in particular really bothered me. These are not just "labels" - modern medicine and entheogenic practices are very, very different. One can save someone from dying of terminal cancer, the other can't. One can keep me, a type 1 diabetic alive, and I highly doubt a psychedelic can do that. In fact, I know it can't.

If you're saying my diabetes is the result of spiritual problems, then you're tragically deluded.



Honestly, you're citing Terra McKenna as legitimate research?

Terence Mckenna was a boss! Please allow him again to make my point through this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c8an2XZ3MU

Also, they are just labels. This whole thread is arguing aginst whose who or whats what. In all honesty, we all are already everything and we dont even know it. We cant label ourselves as anything ever because we all are just vibrations and frequencies and labels restrict and limit us. Sure it may help us get things in perspective at times, but whats perspective in an infinity?

 

[IamMe90]

I guess I'll give up because you really aren't making any legitimate responses to anyone in this thread. You're just rehashing the same self indulgent BS without any justification. Seriously - love is the ultimate truth of the universe, see the hippie movement? What kind of justification is this?

 

[High Yogi]

I guess I'll give up because you really aren't making any legitimate responses to anyone in this thread. You're just rehashing the same self indulgent BS without any justification. Seriously - love is the ultimate truth of the universe, see the hippie movement? What kind of justification is this?

Im sorry for not justifying my responses, i am high as a kite and i guess i do not have propper forum etiquette. Please hang in there. I said love is the ultimate truth. I though this was self justified. How can one argue this? What truth out there is higher than love? There are several different things to back this claim.
here lies a quote:

"The wise man will love, all others will desire."

The highest realization is the self in all things, once this is realized what else is there to do but love? To love unconditionally and infinitely everyone and everything, this is bhakti. Selfless and unconditional love for god and the entire existence through service and celebration. The hippies were all about this, or at least a lot of them were to some degree.

 

[High Yogi]

Please read the above post (not mine) about making masturbatory speeches. Please at least attempt to justify your claims about the link to the spirit world rather than assuming them as already affirmed, because you're not going to convince anyone who doesn't believe in shamanism this way. You know why we don't believe in shamanism? Because not all of us believe in a spirit world that is the "real world."



You think we don't know who the ayahuasca shamans are? Please. Now, this:



This in particular really bothered me. These are not just "labels" - modern medicine and entheogenic practices are very, very different. One can save someone from dying of terminal cancer, the other can't. One can keep me, a type 1 diabetic alive, and I highly doubt a psychedelic can do that. In fact, I know it can't.

If you're saying my diabetes is the result of spiritual problems, then you're tragically deluded.



Honestly, you're citing Terra McKenna as legitimate research?

Well it may not cure everything right away, but it cleanses our negative karmas and energy blockages that cause us many physical problems in ways you probably couldnt yet imagine. Sorry for the misunderstanding here. Im really not trying to argue.

 

[High Yogi]

Pretty good discussion here, it seems the arguments were first over alcohol and its comparison to psychedelics as a spiritual tool for growth and development in a positive way. I remain solid in my belief that psychedelics have much more potential for us, but I will not completely disregard alcohol for its spiritual properties. However I choose another means myself other than alcohol.

Then the discussion progressed into what a shaman is and what its all about. I believe that a shaman is a very unique and special individual of the tribe or community and he cannot be so easily pinned down or labeled because it has so many different aspects and assets to him/her.

We also discussed how important a role psychedelics or entheogens play in this whole business and I believe they play a laaarge role as they help us go deep into the reaches of our selves and try to understand whats going on. It helps us do this in ways we never could have done before because it helps us reach to the divine. This is what entheogens are, tools for divination.

I enjoyed reading your guys posts and hearing what you all have to say. Id still love to hear some more insights about shamanism and its relationship to psychedelics/entheogens.

 

[IamMe90]

Im sorry for not justifying my responses, i am high as a kite and i guess i do not have propper forum etiquette. Please hang in there. I said love is the ultimate truth. I though this was self justified. How can one argue this? What truth out there is higher than love?

2 + 2 = 4.

Energy can neither be destroyed nor created.

To be honest I'm not sure how "love" is a truth at all, let alone an ultimate one. Love is just a concept, you're not asserting a claim or a matter of fact. Is "love exists?" the truth of which you're speaking? In which case, I see it is equally true as the above truths (none of which I would say are true with complete certitude).

 

[High Yogi]

stop troubling yourself lmao. all that conceptual thinking fails bro. Life is much more simple than that, why confuse it. Honestly, the ultimate truth is love for god, but if one can see in their mate god through realizing the same self and enjoying each other and all of creation, then this is the ultimate truth i submit to you.

 

[IamMe90]

stop troubling yourself lmao. all that conceptual thinking fails bro

and here I thought psychedelia was supposed to amplify our cognitive faculties and increase our critical thinking threshold - apparently all it's done is convinced people that the universe is reducible to a black and white picture that can easily be summed up in one sentence. I see now why I should turn to shamanism... thanks man.

 

[High Yogi]

lol wow, sorry. Im not trying to knock you man. Your just over complicating things. you cant describe love, thats nearly impossible. Only through poetry can love be truly detailed, but thats only because poetry is the art of saying that of which cant be said. Secondly, that ultimate truth although inter-related to shamanism because they both deal with divine unity and oneness, was besides the point. and honestly, there was no point. this is an open discussion here. IM sorry if i sound mean, im not trying to be.

 

[IamMe90]

I'm not offended man, I just have a terse argumentative style. Don't worry so much yourself We're all good. I enjoy the debates anyway, we all keep each other on our toes eh?

 

[High Yogi]

I'm not offended man, I just have a terse argumentative style. Don't worry so much yourself We're all good. I enjoy the debates anyway, we all keep each other on our toes eh?

okay cool. JUst dont argue for the sake of arguing. Not implying that you were, just please dont lol.

Also about this: "I just think it's pretty simple from an empirical retroanalysis of history that psychedelia is not going to reveal all of the nuances and workings of reality to us in some grand ultimate truth - don't you think that after thousands of years shamans would have figured out the answer to such basic existential and physical questions pertaining to the universe that physicists and philosophers are still debating if psychedelics were such surefire ways of deciphering reality?

It is clear that the majority of great world thinkers made their contributions to the zeitgeist of their times through study, hard work and critical thinking, not simply indulging in psychedelics. These tools (psychedelics) do indeed have the ability to put us in a position to make unique insights and take novel perspectives, but any claim that psychedelics are the keys to unlocking the ultimate truths of reality is an incredibly black and white and childish way of viewing things, almost insulting to the deep complexity and nuanced intricacy of the very universe that you (the shaman) professes to worship. The sad fact is that while psychedelics may provide these valuable tools for those of us who aren't gifted with the innovative genius of master artists and great thinkers, these tools aren't really needed by those master artists and great thinkers. As such I see no reason to put psychedelics on a pedestal as a unique tool to intuiting the truths of reality. I'm also not saying that they couldn't catalyze great thinkers to even greater depths, but they aren't necessary."


I think that you should watch that video i posted and it may change your opinion.
You also said:

"Now, let's take a look at the shulgin scale:



Now I have seen so many god damn people claiming to reach "rich +4 states" with some sort of frequency, so I'm left with the question, why hasn't the human experimented ended, and indeed why is it fully infantile in its progression? Either people aren't reaching +4 states as claimed - in which case I see no reason to assume that psychedelics can propel one's consciousness to such a state - or the definition of a +4 state is inherently flawed in some way (I wager a mixture of both).

TL;DR: - Shamanism has been around for thousands of years and I don't see them discovering ultimate truths of reality - at least, ones that aren't self-affirming or completely subjective.
- Modern drug users have been claiming to reach states of "ultimate knowledge/perception/truth" with startling frequency for years now on websites like bluelight and yet somehow we haven't figured out how to definitively model the universe, so I gather either the knowledge in such "states" is illusory or there is no possibility of processing such knowledge post-trip. Either way, doesn't seem very "incredible" to me, rather useful in some ways."

Do you know how many people there are on the planet? Surely only a small percentage of us have had ++++s. And a lot of the people who do claim to have had ++++S probably hadn't even really had one. Im not saying ive had one, I just understand that ++++s are very rare. I think shulgin was implying more that when everything the people can touch, taste, hear, or smell brings them to the psychedelic experience of ++++ then it would be the end of the world. or something like that.

 

[Ismene]

I said love is the ultimate truth. I though this was self justified. How can one argue this?

 

[Nateup]

Yogi - I think all he really wants from you is just a little bit of sourcing. You know, he seems to be saying... "just give me something Yogi"...

Why not do a little bit of research and answer some of his challenges?

You could look up the names of physicists and other scientists who have come out and admitted, or rather claimed that some of their greatest discoveries were at least partially a result of psychedelic experiences. I know a huge genetic discovery was claimed to have been made as a result of visualizations under the influence of LSD.

What about the some of the interesting theories about the potential role that these psychedelics may have played in the drastic acceleration of human civilization many many years ago?

Just a couple ideas - I'm not going to do it for you.

If you want to truely "bring something back" as you seem to... you are absolutely going to have to "bridge it" if you know what I mean. You cant make claims based on "assumed truths" that only a small portion of your audience may share... expecting people who have no idea what you are on about to just say "ooooh I get it, it all makes sense just because you said so.
When you try to put extremely abstract spiritual ideas into words like that, it will always fail to convince anybody of anything... and they are correct when they say it comes off very "masterbatory".

... and have you ever heard the saying: "If you meet the Buddha on road, kill him"? http://www.dailybuddhism.com/archives/670

I wish not to be such a dick here but I just feel like you really aren't getting it. And I agree with others who have guessed that you may be of an adolescent or post-adolescent age group. No disrespect here, I was probably much more of an idiot when I was young. I really wish I would have had people to explain it to me then, so its all good vibes.

Happy Sunday

 

[artic]

^^THIS!

DATA! SOURCES! I've been interested in this area of study for quite some time, and I promise you there is LOTS of scientific and scholarly data! Stop expecting your audience to meet you half way. I have little interest in reading gratuitous self glorification. Take off your special hat and speak to us small stupid people in the language we can understand - hard facts.

He who claims to be the Buddha, is not the Buddha.

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

*absolute frustration* i just wrote a huge fucking response, which was very valid, and intellectual. and my fucking computer died!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i'll have to rewrite it tomorrow..

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

the transcendental experience (be it through meditation or psychedelic use) is to me, like a membrane of sorts....to pass through it, the unenlightened ego must dissolve or liquify. once through we experience the 'absolute truth of reality' and catch a glimpse of enlightenment. however, when our transcendental experience fades, we as existees slip back through the membrane and solidify back into our forms(ie egos, conscious beings).

using this model for the psychedelic moments of absolute truth...i feel that 'enlightenment', or absolute wisdom, is not only having 'seen the light' but rather being able to reform ourselves in accord with it. the enlightened being, is one who doesn't have to dissolve to enter the absolute truths. he is one who coexists as both raw energy experiencing the infinity, as well as the conscious ego experience corporeal physical existence.

^this being said, high yogi, i feel where you are lacking in your attempts to explain your realizations is this: you are not bringing the realizations into your conscious ego in a way which is describable to the 'unenlightened' being. or if you are bringing into yourself, you are not arranging it in a way which stands up against factualism...these people are scientific..! they are factualists and empiricists...they are not easily swayed. and its a shame to see such beautiful realizations becoming the source of opposition.

in the same way as i feel enlightenment works, so too i feel the process of integrating 'higher realizations' into the conscious mind works (even if those higher realizations are less than complete, ie still less-than enlightened)....I feel where you are coming from highyogi, and i dig your ideas regarding love being the absolute truth and so forth. however, you are not organizing these realizations into tangible explanations. you are not forcing these scientists to have their minds blown...lol. and it can be done..! so don't give up. its just not as easy as single sentence rebuttals, thats where fallacious non-logic takes hold.

there are countless 'truths' that i know of, from experience, regarding the nature of reality, and the manifestation of physical occurance which, however unfortunately, will probably never be spoken of on bluelight....not to discourage you in 'spilling the beans' though . it's just that the only realizations worth mentioning on here, are ones which you have arranged in an absolutely intellectual way. and anything can be explained intellectually, it just takes some practice...some practice 'bridging the gap'. i feel more recently, i have been a little more capable of explaining some of these more mystical aspects of reality, even to the layman (or damned scientist ), and i have full faith that in time i will be able (as a good shaman is capable of) to explain mysticism without being able to be opposed. but it's baby steps, my friend, baby steps.

when you arrange you ideas appropriately, according to the audience being spoken to, the audience will listen. in my experience through the years, i have learned to phrase things different ways depending on who i am speaking to. it's much easier to talk of the spirit realm and more esoteric experiences with those of whom i am seeing eye-to-eye with, my fellow spiritual seekers. though, i'm telling you from experience, that you can 'trick' even the close-minded avg joe into hearing out your esoteric ideas if you simply phrase it right. and in the case of blue light, you have to have logic and intellectual organization mapped out to a T. why? because there are some smart motherfuckers on this site...and they won't be easily swayed by a statement as bubbly and spacey as 'love is the ultimate truth'. you've gotta get creative with your expressions on here. transcend your linguistic boundries.....and then, before you know it, they will know that love is the ultimate truth...they will feel it.

in an empirically dominated world, where our own experiences rule our understandings of truth...you have to really work hard to get your own experiences understood by the masses. becuase when you experienced them, you 'knew' the truth....you were in the higher consciousness and you felt the 'realness' of your understandings. and by the same movement with which you climbed from that state and brought your conscious description back with you, so to you must describe accordingly to your audience, so that upon the neuro-firing of 'thinking your thought', they too, are brought to the 'feeling' of understanding (or the conscious agreeance that 'this is legitimate information'). you can experience multitudes of realizations, and understand them personally to their fullest, but if you are incapable of getting someone else to see the light that you saw then what good is it speaking definitively..?

don't take this post as a rip though friend, i like what you're saying. take this is inspiration to go the full mile in getting your truths out there into the world....(and bringing us back to the topic of the thread): THAT is the true power of the shaman (beyond healing) to Be Capable of Explaining the Higher Order to His People.

this is what separates the 'whack jobs' from the shaman. the shaman can't be argued, for his explanations are formulated with solidity capable of showing the layman the realness of the spirit. his truth can be felt, not only heard. his words show the way to realization, not spur debate...

all will be revealed in due time...i'd love to divulge some more of my understandings when the time is right...and you too, highyogi, in time will explain your understandings in a way which is impeccably true and inarguable. there is so much to be learned....and i am working on bridging that gap. i am a scientist and a shaman, and am starting to see the 'shamanic model of the universe' or inversely, the 'physical model of the spirit'. :D

peace and truth,
blessings and progress,
harmonious potential,

-tUt

 

[artic]

Beautifully put. I bet it was better the second time you wrote it out, too.

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

lol, it was....

thanks for the support/appreciation