Psychedelics and Self-Realization

[Morninggloryseed]

hello mgs
thanks for the report which revives my interest for ibogaine

i can't help but notice when you write

humans were not meant to be anything in particular

Hello! I noticed you wrote as well...literally thought, "Oh Shit, Vegan has just posted..wonder what he has to say." Truly.

You are so right and I will change the wording in my report......MGS was not meant to be a vegan. I will leave other humans to decide for themselves.

All the love!

MGS

 

[Awake15]

ps : as for the topic of the thread, here is a trip report of mine

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/265739-ayahuasca-experienced-absolute-knowledge-and-understanding

Hello vegan,
Really beautiful experience there. May I know the ingredients of the ayahuasca you tried?

 

[acidhermione]

I wouldn't say my experiences were ever spiritual but I knew from the first time I had psychedelics that my way of looking at the world had completely changed forever. First physically, I felt like I was seeing colour and the beauty of everything for the first time (after my trip had ended I just appreciated and 'saw' properly how lovely and delicious all the colours were. Aside form that the beauty of existing and how weird and strange it is to experience and feel the feeling of being alive.

It's weird because when I first tried I didn't even know that I wanted to or what to expect, I always had this misconception of psychedelics as sending you into a different world and I though it would be all scary with cars melting and horrible feelings (not to say that I haven't had my share of bad trips) but it was very different from that, in fact it really brought me into this reality and made me see and feel everything better and stronger in this world than send me into some other planet like I thought.

I guess my experiences have been glowing in a quasi spiritual way, I just never saw it as spiritual and more as grounding.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

humans were not meant to be anything in particular
just like cats were not "meant" to be carnivorous
they just happen to be

Meant (verb): Intend to indicate or refer to (a particular thing or notion); signify: "I don't know what you mean".
The physiology of cats signifies that they are carnivorous, in fact they are obligate carnivores. Likewise, the statement that humans are not 'meant' to be vegan is linguistically sound (maybe you wanna try imposing veganism on a preagricultural society and see how it works out). Neither that statement with cats, nor the one with humans, necessarily connotes moral obligation or somesuch.

You're being pedantic.

many animals don't have the choice, they are either carnivorous, herbivorous or else and cannot choose to eat whatever they want
humans on the other hand have this chance

Though so long as we're being pedantic, I could read this as implying that we have a moral obligation to be herbivorous, since we have the technological ability to healthily partake in vegetarian/vegan diets. And there is no compelling case to support such a belief.


Anyway, on topic, the only psychedelic experience I've had that I can state with confidence has changed me (encouraged development that would not have happened in the absence of psychedelic use) is my one ++++. I'm not sure exactly what has resulted from that experience, but when I quiet my mind I can still see/feel it....I guess I know that existence is meaningful rather than contingent because of it.

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

I've never been much into introspection on psychedelics.
I've never had any epiphanies and when I thought I had when I sobered up I realized I was just very tripped out

 

[Morninggloryseed]

my one ++++. I'm not sure exactly what has resulted from that experience, but when I quiet my mind I can still see/feel it....I guess I know that existence is meaningful rather than contingent because of it.

I really UNDERSTAND this. I have had A LOT of 'trips' and many I used to define as ++++ or maybe they were at the time going by the strict Shulgin definition. However, post Iboga I can say that I too have only had one ++++ and it was with ibogaine and I have never come down from it. Sometimes 'life' gets hectic and it is pushed in the background, but it is always there and when I quiet my mind or 'work' or just listen to 'iboga music' I am right back there in full force. I sure do love that my ibogaine experience is (now) defined in MGS land as my one ++++ and I love that my ++++ on ibogaine has never ended and no matter how busy life gets it is always still there, and at the end of the day it keeps getting stronger and stronger as more time goes by.

 

[ThirdEyePsi]

The most intense bout of self-realization I have experienced is through the use of low-grade cannabis and meditation. I finally experienced the "observer" viewpoint I've been reading so much about. Witnessing my thoughts and emotions was like watching passing cars, they just went right by with no attachment on my end. There was no good, no evil, no judgements. It was pure, unadulterated being. I'm not religious but as I achieved thoughtlessness I felt the presence of God, peace, and love. I felt the ability to create. The deeper I went the more I would feel an energy emanating off of me, I could actually SEE it. Eventually I started to go even deeper and my living room started dissapearing... fear came into the picture and I went to sleep. In hindsight I believe the fear was totally unwarranted... The fear is the only thing that could've hurt me! I've been trying to reach this pure state of being again with no luck. I know it couldn't have been ALL a result of the shitty weed...

 

[vegan]

Never Knows Best

"meant" has more significations than "signified"
in the previous sentences, it was used with a meaning close to "intended"

cats or humans were not intended to be vegan or non-vegan
that would imply that a higher power had intended for them to be like this
if you believe so, some proof would be welcome because i don't believe in fairy tales

you were quick to call me pedantic in your hurry to defend your position even though i hadn't put it into question

i have my opinion on why some people feel attacked whenever the word veganism even just appears, but i'll only suggest that you take a few minutes to think about it

i didn't mention any moral obligation
each person has his different set of morals
anyone can see that all morals are subjective, and i certainly wouldn't justify veganism through morals

personally, i like to think that i don't have morals but just one principle that is neither objective nor subjective : "to minimize suffering and to help when i can"

and yes, "since we have the technological ability to healthily partake in vegetarian/vegan diets", the logical application of this principle is for me to be vegan

how is this question of belief?
(the word "belief" and me are like water and oil)

you apparently have different principles
or have the same one(s) but practice them inconsistently
good for you, it makes your life easier

maybe you wanna try imposing veganism on a preagricultural society

maybe you wanna know how many times i got this "argument" from people who obviously hadn't thought about it for longer than it takes to type this line?

i've been vegan for almost 2 decades. trust me, what you're going to ask, i've heard it before and i've answered it
so let's not waste time because i type very slowly, just google your next arguments. you'll find all the answers you need

 

[vegan]

May I know the ingredients of the ayahuasca you tried?

dmt crystals extracted from mimosa hostilis and harmala alkaloids crystals from peganum harmala
nothing added

 

[Awake15]

dmt crystals extracted from mimosa hostilis and harmala alkaloids crystals from peganum harmala
nothing added

Hi vegan, have you also tried Salvia Divinorum? If you have, how does it compare (spiritually) with the ayahuasca you mentioned? Also vegan, which psychedelic you've ever tried changed you for the long term in terms of perceiving the world in a different way or perhaps impacted creativity?

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Continuing digression:

NSFW:

hurry to defend your position even though i hadn't put it into question

So were you, as the original statement you posted about is does not disagree with your position (well, by the letter of it). "Humans were not meant to be vegan" is consistent with "humans were not meant to be vegan or non-vegan."

i have my opinion on why some people feel attacked whenever the word veganism even just appears

It is justifiable only by morality, and is thus oftentimes accompanied by self-righteousness. At the very least it means the rest of us do not live up to your personal moral standards.

i like to think that i don't have morals but just one principle that is neither objective nor subjective :"to minimize suffering and to help when i can"

To hold that the amelioration of suffering is preferable to the infliction of it is a moral statement.

Are you an emotivist, by chance?

anyone can see that all morals are subjective

Neither I nor the majority of the human race can see that. Our mythologies will not let us maintain such a position.

And though you didn't ask, if you want to know what I think, instead of what I can say while being a smartass, veganism is a reasonable position to hold given the treatment of livestock in today's world. However, I do not think a desire for the optimally just treatment of animals makes the position universally applicable, since that would prohibitively raise the cost of meat/dairy/eggs. I eat mostly vegetarian meals because I'm poor as dirt.

 

[vegan]

have you also tried Salvia Divinorum? If you have, how does it compare (spiritually) with the ayahuasca you mentioned?

yes
although i can't pretend to be very experienced, i did breakthrough

personally, i didn't find it "spiritual" in the same sense as ayahuasca
it didn't provide any insight in the understanding of the universe or how to view existence

but as i only have limited experience, i'm not the best one to talk about it

however, that's absolutely not to say that it was not interesting
it was veeery interesting and did raise new questions
among which, how the fuck could i have been talking to the spirit of the plant i had smoked?

which psychedelic you've ever tried changed you for the long term in terms of perceiving the world in a different way or perhaps impacted creativity?

ayahuasca
obviously

----------------
mushrooms
ayahuasca's little brothers
they seem for me to have the same potential and message as ayahuasca but they don't deliver it with such a slap on the face

----------------
5-meo-dmt
"holy atheist that i am! how can this exist and not be on every front page of every newspaper! i'm calling my parents because they have to know and i must convince them to try!"
(this applies to my experiences, but i can't talk for others) the sheer power just can't be comprehended by human brains without trying. nothing in our experiences even remotely compares

the best comparison i seem to find for how impossible it is to describe it is if we were all blind and for 5 minutes you could see
the best explanation you could give to others would be something like "oh fuck, oh fuck, oh fuck, there's... i mean... i can't... you have to try"

the message it gave me was pretty much :

"we have a winner!
this is the universe speaking
you just won the game!
this is it
everything makes sense now
this is the hidden meaning of existence in the form of an orgasmic epiphany of consciousness
you didn't know it existed but it now annihilates any questions you may have had
this answers or nullifies everything else
getting to this point was what you had waiting for without knowing it. what everyone is waiting for
enjoy!"

so it nicely put a thor hammer ending to my tormenting search for the meaning of life

----------------
2c-e
gave me more down to earth answers about daily life preoccupations (you're not satisfied with this and that. what you want to do is this, etc.)

NSFW:

hi

as the original statement you posted about is does not disagree with your position. "Humans were not meant to be vegan" is consistent with "humans were not meant to be vegan or non-vegan."

because of the floating word "is", i suppose that you had started to write something else, so let's hope i'm answering the right comment

"humans were not meant to be vegans" is quite different from "humans were not meant to be vegan or non-vegan."

i know that language is imperfect but i'm pretty sure that the poster will agree that by "humans were not meant to be vegans", he meant "humans were meant to be non-vegans"

anyone can see that all morals are subjective

Neither I nor the majority of the human race can see that

ok, well, i meant anyone who thinks about it
i know that most people don't realize it

morals are different from each culture to another. that should be enough to prove that they are subjective
2 opposite values that exclude each other can't both be right
ex : "girls should not go to school" vs "everyone should go to school"

but another way to show that morals are subjective is to ask to prove objectively some of the values that seem most obvious to us

can you prove me that "you shouldn't kill" is an objective value?

i can't
i'm playing the devil's advocate here, but in the following conversation i don't see an objective argument for not killing, from the point of view of b (which happens to be in minority but could very well not be, and it is not a reason to discard it anyway)

person a : you shouldn't kill
person b : why?
a : it goes against people's will to live
b : i don't care
a : you should
b : why?
a : you wouldn't want to be killed
b : you don't know. anyway, i don't see why i shouldn't do what i wouldn't like to be done to me
a : you will have to face the consequences
b : i choose to
a : it's harmful to the evolution of our species
b : i hate our species
a : it makes people suffer
b : i don't feel any empathy
etc.

we all have different systems of thoughts
some are shared by many, but that doesn't make them objective

if someone tells me that he wouldn't torture an animal but eats meat, i'll point out that he's not being rational

but if someone else (i have a friend in mind) tells me "i just don't care if they suffer", then i have absolutely no argument against his behaviour

some people have empathy in their genes, others don't
i can't blame them or try to reason them

To hold that the amelioration of suffering is preferable to the infliction of it is a moral statement.

we may just have a different understanding of words here, but i don't see it as a moral statement in the fact that i don't see the opposite opinion as inferior as mine

i was randomly born with a strong feeling of empathy
but i understand quite well (probably because of that empathy, by the way) how others don't feel it. and although according to my paradigm it would be positive if they did, i don't have arguments to objectively argue that my paradigm is better than others

pretty much: we have to paint the world
you like brown. it's obvious to me that blue looks better than brown
i'll try to make you paint it blue. but i know there's no objective reason to say that blue is better

Are you an emotivist, by chance?It is justifiable only by morality

i don't know what it is. i'll look it up and answer, but not now because i need to sleep

It is justifiable only by morality

many things that could be seen as morally driven by others may not be so.
there are vegans who are just obsessed by their own well-being through a healthy diet. there aren't any morals involved in this case

I do not think a desire for the optimally just treatment of animals makes the position universally applicable, since that would prohibitively raise the cost of meat/dairy/eggs

the high price of "better treated" animals actually comes from the lack of demand for these products
if more people asked for them, the producers could reduce their prices

 

[CathodeRayTube]

25C-NBOME forced me to realise that myself and everyone I cherish are essentially an illusion arising from blind molecular processes.
That kinda sucked...

My trips tend to be dominated with the theme of reductionism.

 

[kidklmx]

With that line of thinking, those molecular processes themselves are essentially an illusion arising from tiny particles doing funky things, which is also an illusion. The problem here is the word illusion, because it's not an illusion. Rather everything we experience is a result of those things.

A good way to restore this world's magic is watching Carl Sagan's Cosmos. That was an eye-opener when I had some derealization issues, which I haven't overcome, but I do see the beauty of the world again

 

[CathodeRayTube]

With that line of thinking, those molecular processes themselves are essentially an illusion arising from tiny particles doing funky things, which is also an illusion. The problem here is the word illusion, because it's not an illusion but rather everything we experience is a result of things.

I think you're right, this is a better way of looking at it. One of my earliest mushroom experiences helped me see the potentiality and creativeness of materialism, rather than reducing the whole thing to inanimate matter. It's still a point of struggle for me though. Sometimes I find it hard to have a fun trip without getting caught up with issues like these.

Ah, psychs...

 

[vegan]

out of topic
for Never Knows Best

NSFW:

so, i read the wikipedia page on emotivism

i'm not a fan of labels but that's pretty much what i was saying
however, it should be clear that the interest of this way of viewing ethical sentences is to be able to deal with contradicting opinions coming from people who don't live by the same codes

each of us lives accordingly to his own subjective paradigm, and the emotivist point of view doesn't take away mine

 

[exists]

The intention behind this thread is to get to know experiences with psychedelics that have been spiritually insightful or have in anyway however small impacted lives and general functionality (perceptions/points of view, creativity etc.)

Would anyone like to share their experiences?

Different drugs produce different realizations, but a common one that keeps coming up (and one I'm having a hard time getting past) is the question of, "what am I?" The answer -- similar to what CRT got on 25C-NBOMe -- is that "I" am just electrochemical signals passing through neurons. It's a scary thing to behold, and I'm sure most people don't give it much thought, but it really bothers the hell out of me

OTOH, it feels good to know that by possessing this advanced level of self-awareness, I as a human am possibly the most evolved form of consciousness on this planet.

On salvia d. I "learned" that we all come from the same thing, that we are like mushrooms popping up from the same mycelium: it appears that we are all individuals, but are in fact the same organism temporarily experiencing individual awareness.

I get the same "connected" feeling on cannabis, but it is colored with a heavy tint of paranoia. It seems as though by experiencing the interconnectedness of all things, I become a target by government forces tasked with preventing people from learning such knowledge. It gets worse when alcohol is added to the mix.

On mushrooms, the connected feeling manifests itself as a great ocean underlying all things.

So I guess in summary the two main themes that keep cropping up are: 1) all things great and small are intimately connected; 2) the nature of human consciousness is both frightening wondrous.

I realize that these are not new concepts by any means, although I did arrive at them "independently."

 

[kidklmx]

Kind of a hard thing to grasp but why must one level of reality exclude the other? Am "I" not real because I'm a signal? Why can't we be consciousness, a species AND individuals? I think a lot of beauty can be found in the synergies between those things

 

[exists]

Am "I" not real because I'm a signal?

I have no doubt that I'm real, but that doesn't mean I still don't find the nature of consciousness somewhat disturbing

 

[bunnyhentman]

I'm not sure psychedelic self-realizations aren't because of the specific chemical as much as being at a point when you are ready to grow/learn something.

The last few hours of LSD in close company with others does tend to give me "insights" about my friends that hold true later -- revelations that have helped me patch up relationships, or surfaced tensions between people I never noticed before. My ego hides a lot from me.