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Psychedelic drugs for the treatment of schizophrenia.

I have schizophrenia and two brothers with it.

I have taken mushrooms while on medication and while there was only a small trip each time (due to blockade of 5-HT by antipsychotics) there was no exacerbation of paranoia or negative symptoms. This is about 2-3 months ago during Australian mushroom season. I experienced subject-object distinction dissolution, stared profoundly at my garden for a while, saw basic swirling colours behind closed eyes and a general change of consciousness/personality while the drug was in my system. I wasn't any more or any less sick during or after the experiences, there were about 8 attempts.

Can't say anything for LSD, but cannabis however - PUTS ME INTO A SEVERE PSYCHOTIC STATE 10 SECONDS AFTER I BLOW OUT THE SMOKE. I am not kidding. Uppers are good fun but the comedown is moderately psychotic.

Look into mushrooms maybe then if you're going ahead with this.

If you want my personal opinion I believe mushrooms can amp up or turn on a circuit that is a kind of longevity circuit and cause rapid regeneration of brain and body. It has happened to me. It's why I'm less and less sick as the days go by, and I can feel it happening. The world may be a divine place and we divine beings. This is just my personal opinion/belief and you can take it how you will, I just share it because it's the truth as far as I can see and I ought to share it.
 
Thank you everyone for your stories, thoughts etc. It would seem at this point that the general consensus is that it not the greatest idea, as it could go either way. I'll definitely be looking into it further, but won't take any action at this point in time. DMT and mushroom could be a better choice as they are more natural, which is always a good thing. I have some more questions, but don't have time at the moment, I'll post them in the next couple of days.

Once again thanks. :)
 
perpetualdawn said:
What are your thoughts on using LSD to treat schizophrenia?
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Well the guy I know who has it finds even meditating disturbing so how he'd find LSD is anyones guess. I personally don't think many schizophrenics would like being that out of control when their minds are out of control in the first place. If you get into a heavy trip the thought that "This will be over in an hour" is quite comforting. If you have no confidence that your mind can regain equilibrium in the first place I imagine most psychedelics would be frightening.
 
http://www.psychedelic-library.org/grob.htm

http://www.substance.com/what-causes-a-bad-lsd-trip/10460/

Overall, Horgan is positive about revived interest in psychedelics as therapeutics. But when asked if he agrees that they have the potential to treat psychiatric disorders, he groans slightly, and says, “I don’t think the words psychiatric disorders and psychedelics even belong in the same sentence.”
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http://www.alternet.org/drugs/psych...-health-problems-and-they-might-keep-you-sane

I personally think there may be promise in research, but that should never be taken as encouragement to experiment with it outside a controlled environment with proper guidance.
 
I think use of psychedelics can help us deal with processes in the mind, but 'hardware' problems such as those (although of course not very well understood) that seem to underlie conditions such as schizophrenia are probably beyond their reach.
It's possible that if it were possible to have a psychedelic experience without exacerbating the chemical imbalances then that person may find ways to function better or cope with their symptoms better, but I don't think there's a true treatment to be found here.
 
Grof used lsd on schizophrenic patients extensively in the 50s and 60s before it was made illegal, and he had some promising results from it. Anyone interested in Grof's work with schizophrenia should read his case studies in his book 'LSD psychotherapy'.
 
Stan Grof was the world's leading LSD researcher, he has far more experience with using LSD in a medical setting than anyone else afaik (because when he was using LSD clinically it was still legal), and he has a great deal of experience in using LSD with schizophrenic patients (thousands of case studies).

His book "LSD psychotherapy" contains details of many case reports of Grof's work using LSD with schizophrenic patients, it is very well written and well worth reading if you are interested in the subject. It explains in great detail the processes involved in treating schizophrenia with LSD.

Have a look here: - http://www.amazon.co.uk/LSD-Psychot...d=undefined&sr=8-1&keywords=lsd+psychotherapy. You can also get Grof's books for free on bittorrent.
 
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According to Terrence McKenna, who might know a thing or two about shamans, a large part of the shamans in the amazon are diagnosed/diagnosable with schizophrenia. They are able to experience things others aren't and in becoming a shaman they have to learn to control their schizophrenia through the use of psychedelics.

So it's definitely interesting, but wouldn't recommend experimentation outside of a clinical setting.
 
max_freakout said:
His book "LSD psychotherapy" contains details of many case reports of Grof's work using LSD with schizophrenic patients
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I've got the book in front of me max and I'm struggling to find anything on schizophrenics. So far it's all ordinary people with various psychotherapy problems.
 
Ismene said:
I've got the book in front of me max and I'm struggling to find anything on schizophrenics. So far it's all ordinary people with various psychotherapy problems.
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that book contains multiple references to the work that Grof conducted using LSD on schizophrenic patients, try looking up "schizophrenia" in the index for some references.

The most detailed example from that particular book is probably Grof's account of his LSD work with schizophrenic patient "Milada" (see p.257). Grof outlines the process of Milada making a full recovery from her schizophrenic/psychotic symptoms after several LSD sessions.

Grof then notes that:
"in several other schizophrenic patients who i treated with LSD therapy, the process was similar but less involved and dramatic than the one described [with Milada]"
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(Grof p.259).

Grof describes how schizophrenic symptomatology is always linked to the perinatal matrices and to negative transpersonal experiences (ie bad trips). He claims that the prognosis for treating schizophrenics with LSD is actually better than treating some neurotic patients with LSD.

Grof also explains the early view of LSD among mental health professionals that it causes a kind of "model psychosis" whereby psychiatrists could experience the inner world of their schizophrenic patients by taking LSD themselves. That is why LSD was originally called a "psychotomimetic" (psychosis-mimicking) before that term was replaced by the more accurate term "psychedelic" (mind manifesting).

There are no other researchers who have anywhere near as much clinical experience with using LSD on schizophrenia patients as Grof, he is by far the leading researcher in that field. His book on LSD psychotherapy provides extensive details of his work with schizophrenic patients, it is probably the best book for understanding the treatment of schizophrenia with LSD sessions.
 
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max_freakout said:
Grof also explains the early view of LSD among mental health professionals that it causes a kind of "model psychosis" whereby psychiatrists could experience the inner world of their schizophrenic patients by taking LSD themselves. That is why LSD was originally called a "psychotomimetic" (psychosis-mimicking) before that term was replaced by the more accurate term "psychedelic" (mind manifesting).
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That theory was dismissed as bollocks even by Albert Hoffman tho. Certainly once you began to get psychiatrists who had actually taken LSD rather than simply administered it the idea that it "mimics psychosis" was dead in the water.
 
Ismene said:
That theory was dismissed as bollocks even by Albert Hoffman tho.
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Albert Hoffman never dismissed the psychotomimesis theory afaik (he wasnt in any position to anyway since he was an organic chemist with no academic background in psychiatry/psychology). The similarity between psychedelic tripping and schizophrenic psychosis is easily recognisable.

Ismene said:
Certainly once you began to get psychiatrists who had actually taken LSD rather than simply administered it the idea that it "mimics psychosis" was dead in the water.
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It's the other way round, psychiatrists began thinking about LSD as "psychosis mimicking" only *after* they tried it themselves and witnessed its psychological effects firsthand. The psychiatrist Humphrey Osmond remarked that it was only after he had used LSD himself and seen its psychosis-mimicking effects firsthand did he begin to pay any attention to the crazy rantings/delusions of his schizophrenic patients, because the LSD experience gave him a personal appreciation of what it was like to be psychotic/schizophrenic.

The theory that LSD is psychosis mimicking was never really dismissed, it is still easy to see that there is a lot of truth in it, but it came to be replaced by a better theory of LSD's effects (tripping as "mind manifestation"). The term 'psychotomimetic' is still considered to be a somewhat accurate label for LSD, but it was felt that the term "psychedelic" was more accurate at capturing the overall effect of LSD. It is very common for people to report psychosis-type phenomena during psychedelic trip sessions.
 
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kidklmx said:
According to Terrence McKenna, who might know a thing or two about shamans, a large part of the shamans in the amazon are diagnosed/diagnosable with schizophrenia. They are able to experience things others aren't and in becoming a shaman they have to learn to control their schizophrenia through the use of psychedelics.
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I think Mckenna's theory here ^ is confused and distorted by his general romanticisation of tribal shamans. It isnt that these shamans have some special mental ability that is comparable to schizophrenia, rather it is the drugs that produce these kinds of mental effects, in everybody who takes them (not just shamans).

So shamans dont "learn to control their schizophrenia through the use of psychedelics", rather they learn to control the schizophrenic-type effects of psychedelics through their shamanic training. Training to be a shaman essentially involves tripping many many times.

The crucial difference between schizophrenia and psychedelic tripping is that tripping is temporary and can be turned on at will, whereas schizophrenia is uncontrolled oscillation between states of consciousness. The psychedelic chemicals provide the controllable on/off switch to accessing the intense altered states, the schizophrenic person lacks this controllable switch.
 
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max_freakout said:
Albert Hoffman never dismissed the psychotomimesis theory afaik
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I think he mentions in my problem child that LSD isn't psychosis inducing - that the whole point of the psychedelic experience is you can experience it consciously not in a psychotic state. That's the thing that gives LSD such value in a psychotherapy setting.

It's the other way round, psychiatrists began thinking about LSD as "psychosis mimicking" only *after* they tried it themselves and witnessed its psychological effects firsthand.

I don't think so max - I think you're talking very early days when they were giving it to mad people and the CIA thought it could be used as a mind weapon. All that turned out to be garbage. Certainly no-one in their right mind today considers LSD to be anything like schizophrenia.

It is very common for people to report psychosis-type phenomena during psychedelic trip sessions.

Not that common. I think Hoffman says psychotic states are very unusual on LSD.
 
Hoffman says the following in 'My Problem Child':

Experimental studies on the nature of psychoses: By taking Delysid himself, the psychiatrist is able to gain an insight into the world of ideas and sensations of mental patients. Delysid can also be used to induce model psychoses of short duration in normal subjects, thus facilitating studies on the pathogenesis of mental disease.
In normal subjects, doses of 25 to 75 μg re generally sufficient to produce a hallucinatory psychosis (on an average 1 μg/kg body weight).
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(p.26)

"The second indication for LSD cited in the Sandoz prospectus on Delysid concerns its
use in experimental investigations on the nature of psychoses. This arises from the fact that extraordinary psychic states experimentally produced by LSD in healthy research subjects are similar to many manifestations of certain mental disturbances. In the early days of LSD research, it was often claimed that LSD inebriation has something to do with a type of "model psychosis." This idea was dismissed, however, because extended comparative investigations showed that there were essential differences between the manifestations of psychosis and the LSD experience. With the LSD model, nevertheless, it is possible to study deviations from the normal psychic and mental condition, and to observe the biochemical and electrophysiological alterations associated with them. Perhaps we shall thereby gain new insights into the nature of psychoses. According to certain theories, various mental disturbances could be produced by psychotoxic metabolic products that have the power, even in minimal quantities, to alter the functions of brain cells. LSD represents a substance that certainly does not occur in the human organism, but whose existence and activity let it seem possible that abnormal metabolic products could exist, that even in trace quantities could produce mental disturbances. As a result, the conception of a biochemical origin of certain mental disturbances has received broader support, and research in this direction has been stimulated."
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(p.29)
 
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kidklmx said:
a large part of the shamans in the amazon are diagnosed/diagnosable with schizophrenia. They are able to experience things others aren't and in becoming a shaman they have to learn to control their schizophrenia through the use of psychedelics.

So it's definitely interesting, but wouldn't recommend experimentation outside of a clinical setting.
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If this is true it's because people with schizoid tendencies are sometimes revered by certain cultures and would be made shamans due to those tendencies and not the other way around...
 
max_freakout said:
Hoffman says the following in 'My Problem Child':
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Yeah - "In the early days of LSD research, it was often claimed that LSD inebriation has something to do with a type of "model psychosis." This idea was dismissed"
 
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