Psilocybin vs. Antidepressants

[Tranced]

Do you know if ashwaganda and/or aniracetam can be safely combined with SSRIs like Lexapro and Klonopin?

And please no preaching from anyone about SSRIs not working.

I've gotten SOME pretty significant help from it, but it's not always enough.

What I'm really upset about is the kratom ban because it helped me better with my depression AND anxiety better than anything else I've ever tried other than MAYBE Shrooms but even though I DO very much want to grow them myself my life circumstances at the moment won't permit that without wanting to go into greater detail (and I also SUCK with anything to do with science so I'd probably fail a lot before i got it right).

It really is true for me that most of my shroom trips have made me feel even more anxiety and depression free than Kratom or anything else I've ever used but the problem is that any release I got ended when the trip was over and I never made lasting changes.

I also disagree with posters who think that chemical depression and chemical anxiety don't exist.

I don't want or care to get into a debate about it cause we won't change eachother's minds, but I think it's been pretty close to proven that certain people's brains are lacking in serotonin, dopamine and other chemicals that regulate emotion and that faulty brain processing (whatever you attribute to this) can produce this as well.

As someone with anxiety and depression myself i can't believe it has 100% to do with life circumstances.

Sure, they play a MAJOR part, but there's a chemical component as well IMO.

So with Kratom now becoming illegal I am looking for more drugs and plants which might be able to help me with my own depression and anxiety when the Klonopin and Lexapro aren't always able to fully do the job.

I think psychedelics in general are amazing tools for this kind of thing, but I'm still wary of ordering RCs, or else 4-Aco-DMT would probably be the first one I would/will try.

If anyone has any more suggestions for any sorts of drugs, be they psychedelics, opioids, stimulants, dissociatives, benzos, or others which DON'T negatively interact with Lexapro or Klonopin (although I CAN skip my Klonopin for a day or two but SOME would be left in my system) I am very interested in hearing about them.

Even legal or over the counter supplements are fine to suggest IF you think they TRULY work.

Rhodiola rosea helps significantly imo, but it only lasted a few weeks for me before I built up some kind of tolerance. You're best posting this in the nootropics thread which should be easily located through the search engine or forum index. Either that or longecity. If not then this thread runs the risk of being cleaned up for being derailed slightly; just a warning so that people get the help they need.

Can you not pick/grow mushrooms in your area? Have you tried microdosing?

 

[Mycophile]

Rhodiola rosea helps significantly imo, but it only lasted a few weeks for me before I built up some kind of tolerance. You're best posting this in the nootropics thread which should be easily located through the search engine or forum index. Either that or longecity. If not then this thread runs the risk of being cleaned up for being derailed slightly; just a warning so that people get the help they need.

Can you not pick/grow mushrooms in your area? Have you tried microdosing?

No I live in the Northeast U.S. and there aren't as many here as the West coast although there probably are more than I'm aware of but I'd be too concerned with picking the wrong mushroom and getting poisoned and i've never actually seen them growing wild but maybe I just haven't gone to the right places.

Rhodiola Rosea never helped me much.

I would LOVE to microdose but again, I've only gotten the chance to do shrooms like 10 times so of course I wanted to do an entire 8th.

I won't clog this thread up too much more, but do you know if Ashwaganda and Aniracetam can be safely combined with Lexapro and Klonopin??

 

[Tranced]

I won't clog this thread up too much more, but do you know if Ashwaganda and Aniracetam can be safely combined with Lexapro and Klonopin??

I've got no idea about lexapro, but I'd imagine it's probably fine with benzos. I really can't say, and wouldn't like to. I'm referring more to Ashwaghanda here. Aniracetam is fine with benzos IME. A few times I became really slow off benzos, so I took nootropics like aniracetam to counteract it (and it worked). Seriously, ask in the boot topics thread because people with a lot more knowledge than me will give you a better response than I can.

Regarding mushrooms, which state are you from? Surely mushrooms grow there, and ime it's fairly easy to pick the right ones. Daily that, growing is a fairly low profile thing to do. Get yourself on shroomery and live up to your name!

 

[Mycophile]

I've got no idea about lexapro, but I'd imagine it's probably fine with benzos. I really can't say, and wouldn't like to. I'm referring more to Ashwaghanda here. Aniracetam is fine with benzos IME. A few times I became really slow off benzos, so I took nootropics like aniracetam to counteract it (and it worked). Seriously, ask in the boot topics thread because people with a lot more knowledge than me will give you a better response than I can.

Regarding mushrooms, which state are you from? Surely mushrooms grow there, and ime it's fairly easy to pick the right ones. Daily that, growing is a fairly low profile thing to do. Get yourself on shroomery and live up to your name!

I live in NY and I'm sure they are here but I still feel like I might accidentally pick the wrong shroom and poison myself.

Yes, I've gone on the shroomery and plan on eventually living up to my name haha.

I can't grow them where I currently live for reasons I won't go into but once I get a new place I am definitely sooner or later going to learn to grow some shrooms.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

I disagree with the contention that psilocybin has to be mediated through a therapy setting in order to have a strong anti-depressant effect. I bought mushrooms "off the street" back when I was 21 and I consider that experience to have had a tremendous long-term impact on my life. It's probably one of the defining moments of my entire life, actually, and is the only drug-related item that would make that list. Tremendous positive impact.

Of course, with a different physiology or a different set of circumstances, it could've gone the other way and become an experience of trauma. That's what makes it a bit tricky. Don't really have any experience with "micro-dosing"...whenever I take psychedelic hallucinogens, I always want to dose well over threshold effects.

SSRI anti-depressants, on the other hand, had absolutely no effect on me, other than obliterating my sex drive.

 

[BlueMerlin]

Not all SSRI's are equal though, I was prescribed Seroxat many years ago to treat depression and I've never gone so deep as during that period, it was pure blackness.
Another problem is that you can NEVER skip a dose by accident or you'll pay for it in many days of gloom.

Brain zaps, black vision, violent, deeply depressed and suicidal.

And not to mention how extremely difficult it was to taper back off of them.

Never again.

But then again, other SSRI's would work fine, but avoid Seroxat by all means, I took it for years and it was a horrible experience.

Micrododing mushrooms can calm the mind and give life a softer edge, but when you're truly depressed they won't be the answer either, unless you combine them with therapy maybe,

 

[EphemeralOutlet141]

I don't think therapy is 100% the only way to do it, but I agree that you need to have some system of positivity and support or else you'll get very little.

 

[Mycophile]

Not all SSRI's are equal though, I was prescribed Seroxat many years ago to treat depression and I've never gone so deep as during that period, it was pure blackness.
Another problem is that you can NEVER skip a dose by accident or you'll pay for it in many days of gloom.

Brain zaps, black vision, violent, deeply depressed and suicidal.

And not to mention how extremely difficult it was to taper back off of them.

Never again.

But then again, other SSRI's would work fine, but avoid Seroxat by all means, I took it for years and it was a horrible experience.

Micrododing mushrooms can calm the mind and give life a softer edge, but when you're truly depressed they won't be the answer either, unless you combine them with therapy maybe,

I'm not sure if you are talking only about Sexorat, which if you are I know nothing about it and never even heard about it till you mentioned it or other SSRIs.

BUT, if you are talking about other SSRIs you are definitely INCORRECT for MOST people that skipping a single day will cause those kinds of problems.

For most people even skipping a few days of an SSRI will have little to no effect because they take several weeks to fully get into one's system and likewise several weeks to fully get out of one's system.

I am on Lexapro and used to be on Prozac and I've skipped both for several days at a time with no noticeable effect.

But I can't speak on Sexorat, nor can I speak for your personal physiology as we are all different.

 

[Tranced]

I believe they were talking about sexorat, hence saying that not all SSRI's are equal.

 

[Mushwood]

I couldn't get on with SSRIs (citalopram and paroxetine) they made me not be able to cum, which apart from being slightly amusing was very frustrating and was also very painful.


Mirtazapine I didn't get any side effects apart from sedation which was very welcome. It didn't do anything for my depression though.


Recently got myself some 4-aco-dmt. I've done LSD and mushrooms (..and tonnes of other psychedelics) loads in the past which has mostly been great fun (with a couple of exceptions, notably one time when I double dropped green microdots when I was 14...) .so I decided I should give this micro-dosing a go.


It's only been a month or so which makes it difficult to make a judgement on how effective micro-dosing aco-dmt is, but it does seems to make me feel better some of the time.... Unfortunately the rest of the time I travel back to I hate my life Parkway, just off Fuck it I'm gonna get some smack if this carries on boulevard. BUT....Feeling better some of the time is better than none of the time so I'll stick with it for the time being


I've also been taking larger amounts which do help me to see more clearly what my problems are. This helps with the easy stuff, but can and does just compound the harder stuff for me.


Overall I am glad I have this substance to help me, coz it does help.....a little, and I don't have many other options.

Edit - I should point out that I'm at the end of a buprenorphine taper and a bit mentally 'all over the shop' anyway ... so probably not the best time for me to be taking psychedelics let alone comment on their antidepressant effectiveness .....

 

[Solipsis]

I disagree with the contention that psilocybin has to be mediated through a therapy setting in order to have a strong anti-depressant effect. I bought mushrooms "off the street" back when I was 21 and I consider that experience to have had a tremendous long-term impact on my life. It's probably one of the defining moments of my entire life, actually, and is the only drug-related item that would make that list. Tremendous positive impact.

Of course, with a different physiology or a different set of circumstances, it could've gone the other way and become an experience of trauma. That's what makes it a bit tricky. Don't really have any experience with "micro-dosing"...whenever I take psychedelic hallucinogens, I always want to dose well over threshold effects.

SSRI anti-depressants, on the other hand, had absolutely no effect on me, other than obliterating my sex drive.

Not sure who you think said that explicitly, but I think you got that a little wrong: it is not that mushrooms HAVE to be mediated like that to have an anti-depressant effect, it is about the reliabilitity or lack thereof. Nobody could prove by themselves that mushrooms are or aren't a proper anti-depressant especially when the concern is that guidance can prove to be a factor that can turn out to thwart or overshadow it's general potential.

As you said yourself: with a different set of circumstances it might have been different and that is the whole point. When choosing this as an anti-depressant people should realize that the absence of a guide can mean that the reliability is much different from that of pharmaceutics. Which can certainly be problematic: with plenty of them you can get a particularly suicidal phase and that is not connected to the limited potential. But still: it is hard to compare with an acute trip experience, plus you get the supervision from a psychiatrist.

You call it tricky: the much wider varience of effect, including possible negative effect. It's difficult to gamble on the possibility that it will have a big long-term positive impact on your life even though guided studies from John's Hopkins in terminal patients with a lot of angst show good results. You may get similar results, but because of lack of guidance you may not.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

I was mostly responding to the statement of

Psilocybin can help depression not directly but through psilocybin assisted therapy.

but I think we're pretty much in agreement. My positive experience is anecdotal, granted, although most info re: psilocybin & depression probably is at this point (owing to its legal status)

 

[Mycophile]

I couldn't get on with SSRIs (citalopram and paroxetine) they made me not be able to cum, which apart from being slightly amusing was very frustrating and was also very painful.


Mirtazapine I didn't get any side effects apart from sedation which was very welcome. It didn't do anything for my depression though.


Recently got myself some 4-aco-dmt. I've done LSD and mushrooms (..and tonnes of other psychedelics) loads in the past which has mostly been great fun (with a couple of exceptions, notably one time when I double dropped green microdots when I was 14...) .so I decided I should give this micro-dosing a go.


It's only been a month or so which makes it difficult to make a judgement on how effective micro-dosing aco-dmt is, but it does seems to make me feel better some of the time.... Unfortunately the rest of the time I travel back to I hate my life Parkway, just off Fuck it I'm gonna get some smack if this carries on boulevard. BUT....Feeling better some of the time is better than none of the time so I'll stick with it for the time being


I've also been taking larger amounts which do help me to see more clearly what my problems are. This helps with the easy stuff, but can and does just compound the harder stuff for me.


Overall I am glad I have this substance to help me, coz it does help.....a little, and I don't have many other options.

Edit - I should point out that I'm at the end of a buprenorphine taper and a bit mentally 'all over the shop' anyway ... so probably not the best time for me to be taking psychedelics let alone comment on their antidepressant effectiveness .....

When you (or most people) purchase 4-ACO-DMT what form does it usually come in??

Blotters?

Pills?

Some other form?

And what is the typical dosage range in terms of milligrams for effectiveness from low dose effects to tripping really hard??

IF one were to decide to purchase some, could they weigh it out effectively with a milligram scale?

Mine personally is not always 100% accurate and I can weigh things once and then a 2nd or 3rd time and get SLIGHTLY different results in terms of like, something might weigh 5.27mgs the first time on the scale, then I could put it right back on and it could weigh 5.29 mgs and then 5.25mgs, but it is always within like the same 0.5 or 0.8 mgs AT THE MOST.

It would never be like a whole 10mgs off.

Therefore, I would NOT want to be weighing something that HAS to be EXACTLY right with it or else get a better scale.

I don't want to trip for days because I got the milligrams wrong by like 0.4 hahaha.

Also...if you are on a Low--to moderate dose of 4-ACO-DMT can you disguise it or is it almost always obvious to anyone around you because your eyes will be dilated like full moons and you'll be blabbing giberish and seeing shit that's not there?? LOL

And how long does the experience USUALLY last??

Thanks

 

[Mushwood]

Hey Mycophile,


It comes in powder form, I think I've seen some gel tabs too, but the vast majority is powder (also I've seen some that sell capsules with a specifically weighed amount inside them..)


about 20mg-ish is a dose so you'll be fine with your scales. (Edit - Wait.. you do mean they can be out by 0.4mg right? if it's 4mg then get some new ones )


For me:


10mg - was very mild but also very pleasant
20mg - Stronger but still wanted a lot more,
40mg - (in two 20mg doses about an hour apart) not that much stronger than 20mg but lasted longer at that level on intensity (6 + hours)


..So next time I'll probably do 40mg all at once. Doing it in two doses I think was a bad idea ...seemed a bit wasteful to me, it made the trip longer (which I don't really want) but not that much stronger. When I just dosed once I could feel the effects for 6 hours or so but the intensity would start to diminish after the first few hours.


I do have a rather high tolerance to mushrooms historically so do bear that in mind, also everyone's different etc.


As to whether you can style it out on a low to moderate dose it's difficult for me to say coz that depends on you and on the people you're trying to hide it from. ...I don't really know what my eyes look like etc when I'm on it, but If I took say 10mg I imagine it would be pretty easy for me to hide it from my friends, they'd probably just think I was drunk or something coz I'd be giggling a lot more than usual!

 

[Mycophile]

Hey Mycophile,


It comes in powder form, I think I've seen some gel tabs too, but the vast majority is powder (also I've seen some that sell capsules with a specifically weighed amount inside them..)


about 20mg-ish is a dose so you'll be fine with your scales. (Edit - Wait.. you do mean they can be out by 0.4mg right? if it's 4mg then get some new ones )


For me:


10mg - was very mild but also very pleasant
20mg - Stronger but still wanted a lot more,
40mg - (in two 20mg doses about an hour apart) not that much stronger than 20mg but lasted longer at that level on intensity (6 + hours)


..So next time I'll probably do 40mg all at once. Doing it in two doses I think was a bad idea ...seemed a bit wasteful to me, it made the trip longer (which I don't really want) but not that much stronger. When I just dosed once I could feel the effects for 6 hours or so but the intensity would start to diminish after the first few hours.


I do have a rather high tolerance to mushrooms historically so do bear that in mind, also everyone's different etc.


As to whether you can style it out on a low to moderate dose it's difficult for me to say coz that depends on you and on the people you're trying to hide it from. ...I don't really know what my eyes look like etc when I'm on it, but If I took say 10mg I imagine it would be pretty easy for me to hide it from my friends, they'd probably just think I was drunk or something coz I'd be giggling a lot more than usual!

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I mean 0.4mgs but this part always gets me confused because when people say "4mgs" there should really kind of be a ZERO after that shouldn't there??

0.4 = 4 to my mind and 4mgs actually sort of = 40mgs or is my math just that bad?? (it's probably that bad lol).


Here's what I mean:

My spoon that I regularly weigh usually weighs 5.29mgs.

BUT....on my scale sometimes it comes out to 5.25mgs (give or take).

So that's the extra 0.4mgs.

So when you say you take "4mgs" at times are you taking 0.40mgs or are you taking 4.0 mgs, as in, the majority of what that spoon weighs??

Sorry I have ALWAYS sucked with math lol


Also, do you get a lot of visuals, open and closed eyes, or any auditory hallucinations??

It's most similar to shrooms right?

I think partially cause i take Lexapro (an SSRI) and often Klonopin my shroom trips usually lacked visuals but many people not on them say they don't usually get many visuals either.

I want visuals of course, but I really mostly enjoy the feeling of peace and happiness they give me.

 

[Mushwood]

Myco,

I think your spoon must weigh 5.29 grams not milligrams (unless you have a spoon made out of magic dust of course!)


So 5.29 grams = 5290 milligrams. Your scales actually appear to deviate by 40mg (5290mg minus 5250mg)


So definitely need better scales if you want to weigh up aco-dmt, get some with three decimal places - search for 'milligram scales'. (On your current scales a dose of 20mg would show as 0.02, so you'd need more accurate scales even if your current set were consistent)


Be careful, you really don't want to accidentally take 200mg instead of 20mg right!


It is very similar to shrooms yes, they both metabolise into the same active ingredient psilocin, the main difference is that the aco-dmt lasts longer.


I do get open and closed eye visuals, mostly things 'breathing' and forming patterns, with a greeny purple thing going on etc. The effect is almost indistinguishable from mushrooms except for the aco-dmt doesn't have the slight sedating effect that mushys do (and the duration is longer)


Dunno about SSRIs but I used to take benzos together with mushrooms lots and it definitely seems to calm the trip down and make it less intense, so i just took more shrooms!

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

Classic psychedelics (i.e. serotonin receptor agonists) can be used to treat depression in one of two ways:
a) Psychedelic/Psycholytic therapy: you take it either in the presence of a therapist licensed to work with it (very rare and still largely experimental) or just take it on your own and come to various realizations during the trip that you can discuss with your therapist later.

b) micro-dosing: Very low (i.e. non-psychedelic) doses of LSD, shrooms et. al. produce an antidepressant effect. The problem here is that it can be hard to gauge the exact dose - shrooms, being a natural product, are going to vary in their potency depending on how old they are, how they were dried, species/strain, which part of the fungus you are eating (...) whereas with street LSD tabs are often underdosed and inconsistently laid. I suppose the RC analogs of these drugs (in your body, 4-AcO-DMT converts to Psilocin just like the Psilocybin in shrooms does; 1p-LSD converts to plain old LSD) might be your best bet for that.

We don't really know much about the long-term effects of microdosing, but at hallucinogenic doses I'd say SSRI's are far safer for somebody with mental health issues than psychedelics are (and yes, I've taken both). As powerful as the psychedelic experience can be, it will not necessarily always give you a more positive outlook on life - it can also confront you with a powerful sense of isolation and despair; and if the experience is *too* blissful, it might promote magical (if not outright delusional) thinking.
Also, people aren't trying to pass off dangerous NBOMe's as SSRIs to make a quick buck 8(

Agreed SSRIS are a lot more safe and effective than self medicating with drugs, or psychedelic drugs like mushrooms.

 

[Mycophile]

Myco,

I think your spoon must weigh 5.29 grams not milligrams (unless you have a spoon made out of magic dust of course!)


So 5.29 grams = 5290 milligrams. Your scales actually appear to deviate by 40mg (5290mg minus 5250mg)


So definitely need better scales if you want to weigh up aco-dmt, get some with three decimal places - search for 'milligram scales'. (On your current scales a dose of 20mg would show as 0.02, so you'd need more accurate scales even if your current set were consistent)


Be careful, you really don't want to accidentally take 200mg instead of 20mg right!


It is very similar to shrooms yes, they both metabolise into the same active ingredient psilocin, the main difference is that the aco-dmt lasts longer.


I do get open and closed eye visuals, mostly things 'breathing' and forming patterns, with a greeny purple thing going on etc. The effect is almost indistinguishable from mushrooms except for the aco-dmt doesn't have the slight sedating effect that mushys do (and the duration is longer)


Dunno about SSRIs but I used to take benzos together with mushrooms lots and it definitely seems to calm the trip down and make it less intense, so i just took more shrooms!

Yes my scale weighs 5.29 grams.

So you still think I should get a new scale huh?

 

[Mycophile]

Agreed SSRIS are a lot more safe and effective than self medicating with drugs, or psychedelic drugs like mushrooms.

Although I think the argument could be made that SSRIs might have worse potential side effects than Mushrooms.

It's still probably not as safe a choice EMOTIONALLY speaking to self medicated with mushrooms though because of how varied their effects can be.

 

[(c)arvin]

I thought I might have some relevant experience here to mention, but this will be my first post, so take it easy on me. I'm going to do my best just to convey my experience. I have taken both Zoloft and Lexapro, in that order. They both worked ok at quelling my anxiety and depression, but nothing worked like psilocybin did. I've taken mushrooms four times now, all across the span of the last year. I had the benefit of an incredibly loving, flexible, therapeutic environment that clearly contributed to my improvement, but I would be crazy not to give mushrooms the place they deserve in alleviating some of my stress. Since I realized how beneficially the mushrooms were for me, I've been reading so much. Just, you know, Ott, McKenna, Campbell, Doblin, getting all my ducks in a row. Nassim Haramein does some interesting work with brain oscillations and so does Rak Razam--I like the idea that psilocybin works to teach our brain how to better oscillate. Is that true? I don't know. It's a complicated issue, clearly. My experience with antidepressants is that they worked like a cheap bandaid. Psilocybin seems to be working more like a cure. I see bright colors now, I hear music, I'm so in love with things. That's the best experiential perspective I think I can give on the psychedelic/antidepressant issue. I really recommend looking through some of the Heftier Institute research if you haven't already. Hope this helps!