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Tryptamines psilocybin and opioid PAWS

simco

simco

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I've been looking at old BL threads related to this question, but haven't been able to find enough specifically relevant info, so I'm taking the liberty to kick off this thread.

My question is pretty straightforward: is it plausible that a psilocybin experience would have any therapeutic effect on PAWS due to heroin abstinence?

By way of details, I'm currently 48 days clean from a 4-year heroin habit. For the past ~2 weeks, PAWS symptoms--strong anxiety, insomnia, general dysphoria/depression, etc.--have been tough. I'm doing what I can to control these symptoms, such as sleep hygiene, exercise, square meals, hobbies. But I'm worried about my ability to maintain progress if the PAWS doesn't lessen at least a little bit.

So I've been thinking about psychedelics. I only have connections to get my hands on mushrooms, so other drugs in this class aren't an option. i.e. If I want to try psychedelics, mushrooms are what I'll be using.

I'm skeptical about the likelihood of mushrooms yielding much therapeutic effect in my case for a few reasons:
* I know that other psychedelics, especially ibogaine, are more commonly used in psychedelic treatment for opioid addiction...not sure if
psilocybin is a viable substitute.
* My (admittedly limited) understanding suggests that psychedelics are typically used during more acute phases of recovery, not necessarily for
PAWS. But I may be completely wrong about this.

Frankly, I'm a bit skeptical about the whole idea. It seems far-fetched that any single thing is going to put a dent in such notoriously stubborn symptoms. And I am a little suspicious about my motives here...I'm sure part of me likes the idea of getting high on something. And that's fine with me. But the mushrooms do come with some risk: my mood has been super volatile, so I'm gun-shy about stirring things up if the experience is likely to be strictly recreational. Nevertheless, I know that drugs in this class have successfully been used during opioid withdrawal, and I'm getting desperate.

Any thoughts would be most helpful. Thanks, all!
 
Short answer: Yes.

Entheogens in my experience are much more valuable once the acute withdrawal has already run its course. Various types of psychedelics have been successfully used through the recovery process to aid in various aspects of the recovery process.

I believe psilocybin has been used to treat trauma and mood related conditions, though I am not sure the extent to which is has been studies in treating substance use disorder. I have a feeling it has though.
 
I cant comment on the efficacy of mushrooms (psilcybin) for treating PAWS associated with heroin abstinence.
However when I was looking at a lot of the studies associated with psychedelics being used to treat drug dependency I noticed a lot of the "successful" results were dependent on the participant having what they called a "mystical experience" - whatever that means - im sure it varies from person to person though (due to individual tolerances, expectations, dose etc).

MAPS (multidiscplinary association of psychedlic studies) is a good place to look for various research on these matters, though admittedly I imagine their research to be positively biased. Here is an article about psilocybin being used to treat depression, which may help with some of the symptons you have described from PAWS. Another study here noted
This most recent clinical trial, run by scientists from Imperial College London, saw a reduction in depression in all 12 participants the first week, following two supervised “trips” dosed a week apart at 10 milligrams and 25 milligrams, respectively. Three months later, the majority reported the same
Click to expand...

However, I must warn about the unpredictable nature of using psycyedlics. Not only is the trip itself unpredictable but the days that follow as well; sometimes the first day after may be great (an after glow) and or the days that immediately follow. However sometimes they may be disappointing/depressing as you are no longer in that state of bliss. Personally I have experienced both sides of the coin when attempting to deal with alcohol cravings and depression, hell even when I have used them otherwise. Which may be an issue if you have already noticed the volatility of your mood.

In regards to whether or not it would be a recreational experience or not.. I feel like thats all in the (mind)set in which you enter the experience... and partially in regards to dose as well. I feel like if your intent to analyze / reevaluate your current position is there the trip will follow (again this is not always the case due to the nature of these drugs)

It is also worth mention, if you do go ahead with this, in the name of harm reduction, it is always advisable to have a sitter, in case things go awry. And to be in a safe (physical) setting.
Again, if you do go ahead with this you may want to look in to the lemon tek. Basically you use lemon juice and warm water to dephosphlate the psilocybin to psilocin (a process that happens naturally, via enzymes and acids(?), in the gut), which is more potent because it crosses the blood brain barrier easier (?).

Not sure if this helps.
Best of luck either way.
ToC
 
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I'm a big supporter of psilocybin, it had a tremendously positive effect on my life. Drugs within its class (like LSD etc) have a lot of promise when it comes to helping treat substance-related disorders.

I also think that there's an overemphasis on being in a good "headspace" when it comes to initially trying psilocybin...they recently did a study that showed that patients with terminal cancer experienced long-term mood lifts from just a single dose of the drug, and it's hard to imagine a worse headspace than the one you're in when you're realizing that you're dying from cancer
 
I don't have personal experience of opiode paws but the symptoms you mention seem very challenging. My thoughts are just that a psychedelic trip might be tricky with the current symptoms you mention. I think psilocybin can help some people, it's certainly helped me but then I've never recommended it to anyone either.

It seems you've 'used' mushrooms before tho so if you go that way you'll know something about what to expect to happen to your mental state and feelings when you trip.

Really hope those symptoms start to lesson soon for you to help keep you on the progress and path that you want. With the exercise, good food etc that you mention, personally I think there's a really good chance that will happen soon.
 
Also; do you have a doctor you can talk to? That might be a good idea if you do. They might be able to prescribe something to manage the next few weeks.
 
I have experience with PAWS but didn't trip on something like mushrooms during the time, IIRC... I did take low dose 3-MeO-PCP eventually to combat part of the PAWS. Unfortunately I did end up getting even more protracted depressed feelings after the PAWS, at least it took longer than the PAWS should have played a role in.

While psilocybin has some promise for depression [DMT analogues like psilocybin seem to alleviate the default mode network that is responsible for depression, apparently arising from rumination among other things] and promise for the insight / motivational side of addiction. I don't know a good reason why it would alleviate PAWS symptoms that are purely a product of your opioid system resetting. Ibogaine acts on it, salvia too, so they might... but for psilocybin the potential is rather focused on the earlier mentioned issues in my opinion.

Indirectly it may contribute to a better well-being, but it doesn't directly influence the PAWS I think. Could do wonders for any considerations of relapse due to the PAWS and that kind of thing though. So it could definitely help you through, but IMO not by simply reducing the PAWS itself. However the physical side of it is likely not the only major chunk, it doesn't have to be as bad or take as long as it sometimes does.

You might wanna arrange a guiding tripsitter - some person of wisdom and friendliness at least rather than experience even - because tripping with a super volatile mood sounds unpredictable. Don't take a super low dose that will just make you feel weird but definitely don't take a megadose with mood issues.
 
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Thanks, everyone, for the excellent advice. Just an update...

Yesterday I went ahead and gave the mushrooms a try. Unfortunately, I didn't originally realize that SSRIs (antidepressants) often nullify the effect of psychedelics. I'm on 150mg/day of zoloft. I took 2g of dried cubensis, and alas, nothing happened--I had zero effect from the shrooms.

My doctor's plan is to wean me off zoloft in the next few months (we're doing an elaborate game of medicinal musical chairs), so maybe I'll give it another shot when that's complete.

Thanks again, though!
 
Ooh that's no good then..

Be warned that both SSRI withdrawal and - on occasion - mushrooms can produce brain zaps. It's not dangerous but still, highly annoying and in a trip pretty confusing and worrisome if you don't know what's going on.

But yeah if you've completed that by all means.
 
I apologize for bumping an obviously old post, but this subject is significant so bringing it to attention has facets of very real harm reduction. Also, very little on this subject is written, and it seems redundant to make a new post.
I have recently gotten clean from opiate abuse. Keep in mind i had what most of you would consider a minor to moderate habit consisting of poppy pod tea and morphine IV and pills. However, as soon as the acute WD's were over, I suffered from PAWS as well.
Now while my opiate habit was small, my career in psychedelics has included everything from microdosing and meditation to heroic dosages and ego-death. While i was on opiates, I strangely had no interests in psychedelics.
Keeping in mind the many positive experiences I've had with psychedelics, in pure desperation (if you've had PAWS, you know) I decided to try to see if they could alleviate my PAWS. Personally, I used cubensis mushrooms.

1) They almost completely alleviated the pure depressive feelings, and left me very capable with dealing with the remaining negative mindset and endless cycles of self blame.
2) They completely altered my mindset on opiates, and i feel the risk of relapse diminished greatly.
3) Helped me understand the reasons behind my addiction. Why i was and still am broken.
4) The void that opiates leave, which most addicts can attest to, has disappeared. I have a completely different view and appreciation on life without opiates.

If you're suffering from PAWS I recommend that you consider this aspect alongside the many other good PAWS-recommendations on this site.

In the name of harm reduction: Above it is suggested to "lemon-tek". As an experienced user of mushrooms i suggest that you abstain from that practice. In many ways it is the plateau phase of a trip which can heal you, and that phase is shortened considerably by lemon-tek'ing. Also, lemon-tek'ing will accelerate your trip and make it much more of a brutal experience. If you need to go further, i suggest you take a larger initial dose instead of tek'ing.

My thoughts on the subject.

Kind regards,
The opium fiend.
 
Dr.Opiumfiend said:
I apologize for bumping an obviously old post, but this subject is significant so bringing it to attention has facets of very real harm reduction. Also, very little on this subject is written, and it seems redundant to make a new post.
I have recently gotten clean from opiate abuse. Keep in mind i had what most of you would consider a minor to moderate habit consisting of poppy pod tea and morphine IV and pills. However, as soon as the acute WD's were over, I suffered from PAWS as well.
Now while my opiate habit was small, my career in psychedelics has included everything from microdosing and meditation to heroic dosages and ego-death. While i was on opiates, I strangely had no interests in psychedelics.
Keeping in mind the many positive experiences I've had with psychedelics, in pure desperation (if you've had PAWS, you know) I decided to try to see if they could alleviate my PAWS. Personally, I used cubensis mushrooms.

1) They almost completely alleviated the pure depressive feelings, and left me very capable with dealing with the remaining negative mindset and endless cycles of self blame.
2) They completely altered my mindset on opiates, and i feel the risk of relapse diminished greatly.
3) Helped me understand the reasons behind my addiction. Why i was and still am broken.
4) The void that opiates leave, which most addicts can attest to, has disappeared. I have a completely different view and appreciation on life without opiates.

If you're suffering from PAWS I recommend that you consider this aspect alongside the many other good PAWS-recommendations on this site.

In the name of harm reduction: Above it is suggested to "lemon-tek". As an experienced user of mushrooms i suggest that you abstain from that practice. In many ways it is the plateau phase of a trip which can heal you, and that phase is shortened considerably by lemon-tek'ing. Also, lemon-tek'ing will accelerate your trip and make it much more of a brutal experience. If you need to go further, i suggest you take a larger initial dose instead of tek'ing.

My thoughts on the subject.

Kind regards,
The opium fiend.
Click to expand...
Really interesting. I wonder what effect this had for you long term? I am going to be trying this for the same reasons.. I'm just very nervous and worried that I have too much hope and expectation of benefits.
 
There's some evidence for psychedelics causing long lasting changes - not permanent if you don't comply to work positively with them, but fascinatingly strong - here I guess @mr peabody can elaborate more.

I am just struggling with the same issue, morphine PAWS. It's not that I miss it, or that the withdrawal was unbearable, but I miss who I was before morphine. One part seems to be hormonal, my T level as well as prolactin and thyroid are outside references or scraping at some extreme. Other thing is dopaminergic. It's also imaginable that long term opioid somewhat 'mimicks' depression, in which a reduced neuronal connectivity has been seen, by depressing synaptic activity the results might be similar.

Thinking about DMT. Don't know whether I'm brave enough to try it anytime soon. Shrooms would be an easier choice but also ineffective since I'm more hooked on fluoxetine than ever on morphine (as in withdrawal being just wrecking me up), and LSD's not so accessible here.
Interested in any reports about more than just a few days.
 
simco said:
Thanks, everyone, for the excellent advice. Just an update...

Yesterday I went ahead and gave the mushrooms a try. Unfortunately, I didn't originally realize that SSRIs (antidepressants) often nullify the effect of psychedelics. I'm on 150mg/day of zoloft. I took 2g of dried cubensis, and alas, nothing happened--I had zero effect from the shrooms.

My doctor's plan is to wean me off zoloft in the next few months (we're doing an elaborate game of medicinal musical chairs), so maybe I'll give it another shot when that's complete.

Thanks again, though!
Click to expand...
When I was on Effexor XR I did shrooms and definitely still tripped and felt effects. Maybe Effexor would be good if you still want to trip. I mean I heard from others that Effexor can nullify the effects of shrooms but I still tripped so maybe it's an option
 
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