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Psilocybin and delusions

maat

Ex-Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
57
Ok, so something I have noticed about psilocybin: I find it causes more delusional thinking than other psychedelics. DMT takes you to another world, but it doesn't screw with your thoughts. LSD and mescaline alter perceptions, but, I do not find the same sort of crazy feeling mind fuck that mushrooms bring with these. I have had delusions on mushrooms, especially on high doses. So have friends of mine. It also seems to make things "sketchy" for people, even when there is not necessarily a reason for this discernible from the set and setting. I have experienced this personally, and I have heard this from many people in my life who otherwise enjoy things like acid.

As well:
Terence McKenna and Dennis McKenna at the La Chorrera experiment speaks for itself as far as delusions go. And Terence was scared off them for life after one horrible trip.

And Albert Hofmann and his associates in "LSD: My Problem Child" found psilocybin to not be enjoyable in the way they found LSD and mescaline to be, they said that the trip got very sinister without any apparent reason. Junger, one of his companions, wrote: "These were the earthy mushrooms. More light was hidden in the dark grain that burst from the ear, more yet in the green juice of the succulents on the glowing slopes of Mexico. . . ." [Translator's note: Junger is referring to LSD, a derivative of ergot, and mescaline, derived from the Mexican peyotl cactus.]

And Hofmann wrote: "The mushroom substance had carried all four of us off, not into luminous heights, rather into deeper regions. It seems that the psilocybin inebriation is more darkly colored in the majority of cases than the inebriation produced by LSD. The influence of these two active substances is sure to differ from one individual to another. Personally, for me, there was more light in the LSD experiments than in the experiments with the earthy mushroom, just as Ernst Junger remarks in the preceding report."
and
"For me this entry into the mushroom world had been a test, a confrontation with a dead world and with the void. The experiment had developed differently from what I had expected. Nevertheless, the encounter with the void can also be appraised as a gain. Then the existence of the creation appears so much more wondrous."

So basically what he got out of it was, "THANK GOD I'M OUT OF THAT PLACE!" *kisses ground*

I'm not hating on shrooms, I know many people who have also had great experiences on mushrooms. I'm just wondering; has anyone else noticed this? I've begun to theorize that psilocybin is an imitation of DMT meant to screw with animals and is meant as a defense mechanism. I don't think this is necessarily true of other plant psychedelics owing to the amount of material that needs to be ingested (cacti, iboga, salvia), and DMT plants just plain can't be consumed without preparation. The 5-Meo-DMT Sonoran Desert toad poison gives me pause for thought...but from what I gather, 5-Meo-DMT isn't exactly fun...and its endogenous, so I don't think it could be considered a purely Darwinian-defense molecule, even if the toad may use it as such.

As Terence McKenna said, mushrooms are in the perfect delivery system; pick, munch, done. And for most animals I suspect.....never again! Thoughts?
 
I'm honestly not entirely sure of the point you're trying to get at here, but that's likely just me still waking up behind my desk at work :P

Mushrooms in my experience have definitely brought on more delusional thought process, though I still haven't properly experienced LSD. I can definitely see where McKenna was coming from when he scared himself off them from a bad trip - my last mushroom experience was my first bad trip. Was on my birthday, in one of my city's busiest nightclubs, on 8 grams of dried cubensis. The effect mushrooms have where they remove the sensory-input filter (so to speak) was the root cause of my bad trip, as my consciousness was being bombarded by so many groups of people in separate conversation, ridiculous amount of colourful flashing lights, and of course loud as fuck music. Got to a point where my consciousness was being slammed by all this unfiltered input that I was no longer able to form simple thought process; for the most part my internal dialogue was silenced. I knew from previous experience that this particular effect would be overridden by MDMA's effects, and given I had a 100mg cap of MDMA on me, I knew what I needed to do.....problem was when I removed the little ziplock baggy it was in from my pocket, all I could do was stare at it unable to open it and remove the cap, as I quite simply didn't know how to. I just sat there thinking (as best I could at the time) "OK, what am I trying to do? Gotta get that out of the bag....how?!!?!". Managed to get it out eventually, then just chewed it up and swallowed. 30-45 min later in the taxi home (since that's all I wanted to do - GO HOME) it started kicking in and I could think again.


Even after the above trip, I still LOVE shrooms! Only reason I haven't had them since is I don't have any haha...but I'll quite happily eat another 5g the first chance I get :)
 
Oh, no point really. Just pointing out they seem to lead to more delusional thinking than other psychedelics. I personally use psychedelics for insights I can bring back into the real world, and I haven't found mushrooms particularly useful for this purpose thus far. Then again, I have not used them in 2 years, so maybe if I go in again I'll think different. I was thinking about trying them again, but then I thought to myself...."why?" LSD I'm usually able to find something, DMT almost certainly, MDMA if used with LSD, definitely, but mushrooms....I never seem to come back with much.
 
Ah ok, well I can definitely say I've taken plenty from mushrooms :) first PROPER trip on them touched on ego death, had the whole realisation of how short life is yada yada and that I should get out and do things while I can instead of hesitating and losing opportunities. Even the bad trip above gave insight into a few things, though cbf detailing them haha
 
I have some theories about this... one of them I have a thread related to in the neuroscience section right now. But the main idea would be this: LSD and mescaline are significantly directly dopaminergic at roughly the same level of their psychedelic effects, and DMT is relatively non-selective as a serotonin agonist. For the former two that could lead to more euphoric experiences, and for the latter that would mean that other potential serotonergic effects on the mind don't become active until around the same time that the psychedelic hallucinations do. Psilocin is supposedly not so selective, and binds to many serotonin receptors much more potently than 5-HT2A. Some of these release serotonin, dopamine, GABA, and other neurotransmitters in large amounts, and so it would be reasonable to think that they should already be running pretty strongly by the time the 5-HT2A psychedelia shows up, which is normally the aim of taking mushrooms. I'd bet money that that's at least part of why psilocin's mental effects are so much more severe than other psychedelics.
 
I didn't know Terence was scared off them for life! It seems all he would go on about was psilocybin. Do you a reference for his revelation I can read about / watch?
 
Dennis McKenna wrote about it in his book "Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss". Just google "Terence McKenna 1988". A video I saw of him chatting with Ram Dass made sense after I learned that....he mentioned to Dass whether he ever didn't do something because it would be "out of character". He still drank ayahuasca and smoked DMT, although he did so on rare occasions, and with reluctance. But never mushrooms again.

I don't like mushrooms. McKenna said shamans he met in the amazon who used ayahuasca told him they only used them when they had no ayahuasca, but it was tongue in cheek because they always had ayahuasca. He said "I can barely get them to talk to me about mushrooms".

I honestly find they just make me feel crazy. I've never had the same insights on them I get from LSD/MDMA/mescaline/DMT/. Those I actually find beneficial and use them in spiritual practice. Shrooms....well, its been a while. Perhaps if I go back I'll find something different. But, I feel like I'll eat them and be like, "why the hell did I do this again?" lol
 
Mushrooms definitely seem like a more intense experience than LSD and most others. It feels like the mushrooms come on hard and you come up fast. It fells like its sucking you in and forcing you into wherever you go on high doses with OBEs. But you get that feeling even when you don't take enough to blast off and it comes with anxiety and maybe confusion and paranoia you really gotta learn to expect it and know nothings wrong it happens almost every time. And ya LSD comes on slower and has a different maybe chiller headspace it easy to hold on to yourself if you need to.
 
Mushrooms just have this darker vibe to them. Even the hallucinations I find to be more provocative of a bad trip than LSD. Mushrooms cause me to see a lot of faces, blocky hallucinations, extremely complex and intimidating patterns, and an overall wacky flavor to everything. While all that can be good in it's own way, I find LSD to be much more focused on colour, beautiful crystalline patterns, and synesthesia, I always find myself describing my LSD trips as "fruity" and "juicy".

People faces on LSD always look perfect and without flaws, as if I'm walking amongst an elevated race of beautiful people. Whereas on mushrooms I find it difficult and scary to make eye contact with just about anyone but my closest friends.

Even now when I've taken mushrooms many times, when I do take them I still feel the possibility of a bad trip. Like it's there, but I've got in check and I can hold it there, unless something drastic happens that could cause my lose that control. While during LSD trips I am always thinking "is it even possible to have a bad trip with this stuff?", and I'm sure it is, but the mental buffer between going to a bad place is much greater with LSD.

Some of this, may stem from the onset of the drugs. LSD has this very easy comeup that takes well over an hour, if not two, and it's a gentle linear come-up that feels like you're falling into a dream, but staying wide awake. Whereas shrooms you eat them, and then 15 minutes later you're like "WHERES MY PHONE, GUYS LETS GO SOMEWHERE, HOW ABOUT THE STORE. DID YOU CLEAN UP THE BATHROOM? I STILL CAN'T FIND MY WALLET. DID WE FEED THE DOG OR NO? WAIT WHERE IS THE DOG?"

All this aside, these are my two favorite drugs of all time.
 
KillCops: Nah, its not the intensity that gets me, I've been on over 600 ug of high quality LSD on a couple occasions, which was way more "intense" than any 5 gram trip I've had on shrooms before. And DMT hands down blows anything out of the water I've experienced for intensity. I just feel "crazy" on shrooms. Even low doses, I just don't like the vibe I get. Anxious, sketchy, delusional... For no reason, regardless of set and setting, it just presents itself like that, even on low doses.

thatdreamer123: you pretty well summed it up. Particularly the part about people looking sketchy. Both in my own experience and that of numerous friends of mine, that has happened. I have also seen it happen on acid, but there were reasons for it. Mushrooms there's no reason, shit gets sketchy for no discernible reason. Friend of mine thought his buddy looked like a sketchy tough guy once, another guy thought this guy looked like the devil while he was getting a ride home, another guy thought a guy looked "sneaky", another guy couldn't look at a friend for 2 weeks after a festival (nor his friend at him), another guy saw a guy look like a chameleon, another guy saw a "devil lion".....the list honestly just keeps going. And in pretty well all these occasions, there wasn't a reason. If they'd been on a peak of 300 ug LSD trip, wouldn't have happened. Nor on a high dose mescaline trip. Even on a pharmahuasca trip, which I found much better than shrooms though I only tried it once.
 
Not that people can't morph into sketchy personas....but there will be a reason. Shrooms are just sketchy. As I mentioned above, Albert Hofmann and his companions noticed the same thing. Perfect set and setting, but a sketchy trip. And they noted on mescaline or LSD, they most likely would have been fine.

Wandering Girl: I have had the same thoughts about the dopamine effects, I think that is the "light" that Hofmann and his companion noted were present with LSD and in greater presence with mescaline, but absent from psilocybin. I myself have noticed this too, but I prefer LSD because I find LSD "does something" with the light, whereas mescaline it sort of goes to waste. I honestly find LSD like a fusion of mescaline and psilocybin; it has the mental aspects of psilocybin, but with the "light" of mescaline. Like the light fuels the mental effects to soar to new heights, and overcomes the dark weirdness.

Which is also interesting, because as an ergoline, LSD has both the tryptamine and phenethylamine structures within it. Its effects are decidedly tryptamine like, but it is so similar to the phenethylamine mescaline its ridiculous, closer to mescaline than psilocybin! But, with the mental component of psilocybin. I think LSD is the greatest psychedelic....perhaps DMT. MDMA is LSD's life partner. :P
 
I feel psilocybin in particular creates more psychological double-bind situations than most compounds which can make them rather dark or tricky even though they are pretty lightweight or lacking the depth of say LSD in many otherways. LSD can be tricky in other ways at high dose of course but seems to blast straight past this lower area of "folk psychedelic" function better
 
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