Harm Reduction Progress Mega Thread

[Ripamaru]

As for personal progress, ugh blah. It's valentines day and my bf is already swearing and yelling at me. I'm in bed in tears waiting for him to go. It sucks. But I have been keeping my doses low, switching between small doses of sub and whatever else. Thinking about ordering Kratom or seeing if the head shop has any for my go-to w/d easer because I only have a couple subs left and fucked up my dr/pt relationship. Any advice on strains or type of Kratom to buy? I have a lot of housework to do in the next few days, should keep me busy and feeling productive. Had a nightmare last night, and after experiencing sleep paralysis early morning yesterday, the sleep disturbances are getting old. Ahhhhhh, life. It's what you make of it, huh.

Sorry to hear about your problems. I have been through both an abusive relationship and screwing my dr/pt relationships which forced me to WD.

I would advise you to not take anything that will make the WD last longer. It will get better eventually. At least it is sub and not methadone eh?

It could always be worse, never forget that part. I am sooo glad I left my ex now, it still hurts after a year but I had to accept that the bad outweighed the good.

I hope everything works out for you.

 

[caseface99]

As for personal progress, ugh blah. It's valentines day and my bf is already swearing and yelling at me. I'm in bed in tears waiting for him to go. It sucks. But I have been keeping my doses low, switching between small doses of sub and whatever else. Thinking about ordering Kratom or seeing if the head shop has any for my go-to w/d easer because I only have a couple subs left and fucked up my dr/pt relationship. Any advice on strains or type of Kratom to buy? I have a lot of housework to do in the next few days, should keep me busy and feeling productive. Had a nightmare last night, and after experiencing sleep paralysis early morning yesterday, the sleep disturbances are getting old. Ahhhhhh, life. It's what you make of it, huh.

Sleep paralysis fuckin sucks. I get it at least 2-3 nights every month or so, usually at least twice in a night sometimes 4 times in one night though. I have realistic dreams where i die a couple times a month and I have had sleep paralysis a few times where i die of some horrible illness. The first time i ever got sleep paralysis my stomach/intestines 'popped' and sprayed my guts all over the wall where i was stuck looking. Feeling certain beyond any doubt that you are dyeing sucks.

All the people talking about withdrawing, I'm not a hippy, but when you start your final fast taper( like you are going to be off within the week) have an acupuncture session before, and one after, like a week later.
I have withdrawn countless times like so many people, usually C/T, and for stopping subs, I did this and it was great. I had very few withdrawal symptoms except fever/ chills which stopped during my after-detox acupuncture session and never came back.

I was not able to stop subs before the one other time I tried.

qft
When i quit heroin and got on bupe, my first psych gave me acupuncture. Stuck 3-4 needles in/around both ears. Not sure how it effected withdrawal after a day because i got on bupe the next morning, but while having it done i felt an intense opiate like high/rush and felt a bit better for the rest of the day.

 

[muvolution]

My first session (and they tell you not to take less or more medication than you usually do IF you take meds) and I was on less than my usual dose and as soon as i started getting needled, i was nodding HARD, and even fell asleep for like 30 minutes (it's a 3hr treatment) while they were leaving them in.
My treatment afterward didn't necessarily give me an opiate like "high" but it certainly ceased all withdrawal symptoms, and with continued weekly sessions I am not having PAWS nearly as badly as the several other times I've withdrawn on several different opiates @ high doses including H and oxymorphone, and the lower one's too.

Anyways, it's rad and only $10 a session since I still have my student ID from grad school. Make sure you go to a traditional 4-point taoist acupuncturist since it is completely different than the symptom based stuff they usually do in doctor's offices.

 

[caseface99]

So last night i realized i had run out of loperamide, and rather than going out to buy more i said fuck it and didn't take any. As far as i can tell there is little to no difference between last night with no lope and the night before with 8mgs of lope. I'm not even sure if the lope is doing anything at this point. Could slight temperature variations and skin crawling in my arms be PAWS? Considering it's 4 weeks 1 day since taking any bupe i don't see how I am still withdrawing...

 

[Dr migi]

When i quit heroin and got on bupe, my first psych gave me acupuncture. Stuck 3-4 needles in/around both ears. Not sure how it effected withdrawal after a day because i got on bupe the next morning, but while having it done i felt an intense opiate like high/rush and felt a bit better for the rest of the day.

intressting... im going to do acupuncture in about one week, ill take a high dose bupe just to enjoy this. with some clonazepam.

edit: sorry for the "out of main subject."

 

[HdoubleODeezy]

So last night i realized i had run out of loperamide, and rather than going out to buy more i said fuck it and didn't take any. As far as i can tell there is little to no difference between last night with no lope and the night before with 8mgs of lope. I'm not even sure if the lope is doing anything at this point. Could slight temperature variations and skin crawling in my arms be PAWS? Considering it's 4 weeks 1 day since taking any bupe i don't see how I am still withdrawing...

i would *think* it's PAWS because why would there be such a huge difference in the time gap of our w/d's? you take a month and i take a week and i was taking it for a long ass time.. maybe im just weird, or maybe you're mistaking PAWS for regular withdrawals and therefore think you are still in them? Anyways, i hope you get better soon, i feel bad that i got off so easily and you are still uncomfortable.. don't worry tho, i'll pay when i come off my kpin taper next month.

 

[Been&Done]

I'm back.....Hello everyone, been busy lately. Still at 2 mg's Subutex and expecting some xanax these next few days, it's been almost 3 months now with just Subutex, excited for the coming change of mood. I hope everyone is fine and dandy

 

[caseface99]

^^ Glad to hear you're doing well.

And @hood - it could just be that the kratom and loperamide prolonged the withdrawal for me, since you went cold turkey and i went slow taper. Plus if i had gone through full blow w/d without kratom or anything to help then how i feel now would probably be like heaven. Since it was never *that* bad for me, this isn't much of an improvement. But for you it would have probably been improved 10 fold.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

So last night i realized i had run out of loperamide, and rather than going out to buy more i said fuck it and didn't take any. As far as i can tell there is little to no difference between last night with no lope and the night before with 8mgs of lope. I'm not even sure if the lope is doing anything at this point. Could slight temperature variations and skin crawling in my arms be PAWS? Considering it's 4 weeks 1 day since taking any bupe i don't see how I am still withdrawing...

Funny, before I even started typing this I just got your PM!

Anyway, those aren't typical PAWS symptoms but they are typical cute w/d symptoms... you may be 4 weeks removed from sub but you're only what, 36-48 hours removed from loperamide? I'd expect some minor w/d symptoms from that.

I tried coming off loperamide a couple times when I was tapered with it and got some mild withdrawal so then I just tapered it down. If you're doing alright you probably don't need to but its an option.

Regarding PAWS, here is a thread in HL that might have some useful suggestions if you're interested.

 

[ThePharmicist]

Update on My Progress

I'm starting to get really sick of where I'm at with Suboxone. It's like the shit doesn't work anymore – it doesn't do jack for my cravings. I realize I'm going to have to deal with cravings no matter what route I choose, whether it's bupe, methadone, or cold-turkey. But these cravings are continually causing me to relapse or think about relapsing. I should have been clean for 17-days by now, however, I've used six or seven times since I made my last effort to get back on Suboxone. Almost OD'ed in this time period too. Thank God my girlfriend was there, and I had some Adderall to increase my respiration. You'd think after three close calls with shit like that I'd learn my lesson. Two times I came VERY close to OD'ing, and the third time I almost went into anaphylactic shock.

I've deleted phone numbers, cut contacts and explicitly stated to others I have no intention of using. I keep running back though, and I can't stop. I can feel heroin through 16mg of Suboxone. Easy. If I don't take Suboxone for one day and use in the evening, I get almost full effects. I though when I finally started to straighten my shit out on January 28th that life would start turning in the right direction. I am completely overwhelmed by these cravings, even if I don't act on them, I'm addicted to the simple act of *thinking* or *researching* opioids. I've probably spent 72-hours of the last week online looking at novel opioid compounds that are potentially legal. In a way I'm satisfying my addiction just by drooling over different opioids.

I'm starting to contemplate methadone more and more each day. I've spoken with a clinic director (the one I'd attend) probably 3-4 times in the last three weeks. I'm tired of relapsing and I'm honestly afraid that I might die if I keep going this way. I'm also tired of feeling like shit. Suboxone just doesn't help me like it used to, I used to feel like I had my shit together with it. Now it's a shitty replacement. I feel cold all the time with Suboxone. I have no motivation to do anything with my life.

I think I might go with methadone for three months on a lower dose, than switch back to Suboxone and hopefully get better. I'm just at a loss right now . . .

 

[caseface99]

Funny, before I even started typing this I just got your PM!

Anyway, those aren't typical PAWS symptoms but they are typical cute w/d symptoms... you may be 4 weeks removed from sub but you're only what, 36-48 hours removed from loperamide? I'd expect some minor w/d symptoms from that.

I tried coming off loperamide a couple times when I was tapered with it and got some mild withdrawal so then I just tapered it down. If you're doing alright you probably don't need to but its an option.

Regarding PAWS, here is a thread in HL that might have some useful suggestions if you're interested.

Thanks cane. I know the symptoms are typical of acute opioid withdrawal, but i was thinking PAWS because there was little to no change between using loperamide and how i feel now 2 days since using anything. I'll give it a few more days and then i might go to a doctor for gabapentin or something if there still isn't much improvement.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^The reason I was thinking that wasn't PAWS is because its not typically a symptom of PAWS.

Here is the list from wikipedia which, from what I know on the subject, is relatively comprehensive.

* Psychosocial dysfunction
* Anhedonia[19]
* Depression
* Impaired interpersonal skills
* Obsessive-compulsive behaviour
* Feelings of guilt
* Autonomic disturbances
* Pessimistic thoughts
* Impaired concentration
* Lack of initiative
* Craving
* Inability to think clearly
* Memory problems
* Emotional overreactions or numbness
* Sleep disturbances
* Physical coordination problems
* Stress sensitivity
* Increased sensitivity to pain
* Panic disorder[14]
* Generalised anxiety disorder[14]

Its possible that its PAWS but I would think its more likely to be remnants of A-W/D if you aren't simultaneously experiencing more common PAWS symptoms such as cognitive impairments (mental cloudiness), incoordination, lots of anxiety/depression and difficult coping with stress, etc.

While I understand your desire to want to mitigate it with something such as gabapentin, I think in the long-run you'll be a lot better off finding alternative ways to deal with it rather than using other drugs. I'm not saying you'll get addicted to gabapentin or even abuse it, but in general you'll be better off if you find ways to cope with all of this without turning to powerful medications.

 

[caseface99]

^True, honestly as benign as gabapentin is i agree that that's not the point, I'd rather not get another prescription. The only exercise I've been doing lately is stuff like pull ups, crunches, and pushups, which absolutely helps with my arms for a bit but doesn't last. Maybe If i start doing some actual cardio workouts I'll get higher levels of endorphins.

I am definitely getting some depression on and off for the first time in a few months, though it might be unrelated to the withdrawal because of the huge changes associated with moving cross country and shit. Though thinking about my lack of friends and 'the good times' i had over the years in my old town could be a symptom of the depression not a cause, so who knows. My mind is also more cloudy and reading can be difficult, but this can also be caused by weed which I've been smoking almost every day for the last week or two. I didn't smoke at all today so I'll see how i feel in the morning.

Thanks for the input though

 

[caseface99]

It's 1:40AM, I'm about to go to sleep - and i actually don't feel that bad. My arms aren't crawling and overall I feel pretty good actually now that i think about it. I guess I'll see if i wake up a bunch of times when the clonidine wears off and report back in the morning. This is weird though. I felt off all day and now i don't feel that bad? During the entirety of my taper and withdrawal i never felt worse than at night no matter when i took my dose. I experimented with every hour of the day and withdrawal was always worse at night - Now today wasn't that great but tonight isn't that bad for the first time since i can remember.. interesting.

 

[ThePharmicist]

It's 1:40AM, I'm about to go to sleep - and i actually don't feel that bad. My arms aren't crawling and overall I feel pretty good actually now that i think about it. I guess I'll see if i wake up a bunch of times when the clonidine wears off and report back in the morning. This is weird though. I felt off all day and now i don't feel that bad? During the entirety of my taper and withdrawal i never felt worse than at night no matter when i took my dose. I experimented with every hour of the day and withdrawal was always worse at night - Now today wasn't that great but tonight isn't that bad for the first time since i can remember.. interesting.

The arm crawling/restless arm stuff is one of my least favorite w/d symptoms. Not that I really have a favorite, but there are certain ones that are worse than others obviously. I just hate waking up feeling like my arms are gonna jerk around and they have that 'crawly' feeling. Ugh!

I'm about to leave to check out a methadone clinic today. . . I'm going to speak with this guy about my situation and determine whether or not methadone is a viable option for my situation. I'd like to spend a short time on methadone to get some sobriety (abstinence from heroin) under my belt and I'd like to stop feeling like shit with Suboxone. Of course after the 'done stint, I'll be going back to Suboxone and hopefully just moving on. This methadone clinic I'm going to seems very legitimate. I called the clinic at 2am the other day, I wanted to leave a message to see if I could come in. To my surprise I got the clinic director! He was up at 2am Valentine's Day and more than willing to talk to me for over an hour. Just chatting actually, I was explaining my situation and he was listening and we joked around about general addict stuff. Seriously nice guy. I'm going in today to see him, not an assistant or something, the clinic director. We will see how this goes. I'll write back later.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^If you're serious about getting clean I'd strongly suggest stop hanging around this forum and look into ways to truly achieve and maintain sobriety... You need support and commitment and just taking a pill while changing little else in your life is RARELY sufficient for people who seriously struggle with addiction.

Just taking buprenorphine is like the "addict" attempt at sobriety... just popping pills and expecting the problem to resolve. It doesn't work like that. It took a lot of work to get the point of being a full blown addict and likewise it will take a lot of work to turn your life back around.

You might find some relief from the cravings with methadone but if you don't make other necessary changes in your life and put forth a real effort in getting clean, I fear none of this will make a difference.

 

[muvolution]

Good luck man. Finding the right person to help you along is one of the hardest things in the medical profession.

 

[ThePharmicist]

^If you're serious about getting clean I'd strongly suggest stop hanging around this forum and look into ways to truly achieve and maintain sobriety... You need support and commitment and just taking a pill while changing little else in your life is RARELY sufficient for people who seriously struggle with addiction.

Just taking buprenorphine is like the "addict" attempt at sobriety... just popping pills and expecting the problem to resolve. It doesn't work like that. It took a lot of work to get the point of being a full blown addict and likewise it will take a lot of work to turn your life back around.

You might find some relief from the cravings with methadone but if you don't make other necessary changes in your life and put forth a real effort in getting clean, I fear none of this will make a difference.

Thanks for the input, and general reality check you've provided. I know I need to make some lifestyle changes - Im starting outpatient treatment on Thursday. I've been speaking with the director of the clinic for about an hour and a half. He seems like a real good guy. They have group therapy and relapse prevention groups almost everyday of the week - and if I have to come to the clinic I might as well hang out and participate in group. Im scared of methadone, but I'm also scared of dying from heroin. This forum is great - there's a lot of experience here. But it does also satisfy my addiction with opioids in some basic way.

I'm sitting in my car right now debating my course of action. I think I'm going to get on methadone, go to outpatient, go to group here, and in a month or so I'm going to get back on suboxone. I'm just afraid of a lot right now. I hope methadone can be a useful part of my recovery in some way.

 

[smokozziben]

Hmmmmm. I have read A LOT of threads on this site, but don't have a knack for posting. I wanted to quote and reply to those of you who responded to my post the other day... Then was going to post about methadone to thepharmacist, but I realized that that would end up being a novel and a half.

Soooo, thanks for the kind replies to my down and out post the other day. Relationship-wise things are going better. I think I have gotten through to my boyfriend about his temper, and how the yelling has to stop. I understand where he is coming from too. I've put the man through hell with my drug use and ups and downs that go with it, his anger is legitimate. I told him he can SAY anything he wants to me, and I will listen and respond. I just need it to be said conversationally and not screamed at me peppered with curses and hate. He agreed that is fair.

I failed and bought more than a few bags since monday. Some of them were fent I'm sure of it. It cooked up purple (usually sniff but iv here and there) and it hit very heavy. Not as fun and floaty, just...heavy. And I about killed my bf with it I think. He isn't addicted, just dabbles, and I had a hard time getting him to respond after he did some. This was before I realized what it probably was. Ugh, should be more of an eye-opener than it was, still feel rather blasé about it. I'm so jaded. That stuff is about gone now though, I have some op60s to move on to. Was thinking that they could possibly be used kinda like methadone since the oxy is all locked up in time release. Probably a dumb ass train of thought, idk. Typing all this out is making me realize exactly how fucked up my choices are. I'm not sure what I am going to do when the op's run out, but clearly I need to do something. I'm super interested in a pill there was a thread about the other day, name is slipping my mind. Some strongish opiate with a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor. Oh, it's called nucynta. Unlikely I will rum in to it though.

Alright this post has had little to do with progress, more like regression, and if it's way out of line I am sorry about that. I'm kind of unclear about the guidelines here.

Last thing, caseface, YES sleep paralysis is fuxking horrible. Not that I'm glad you have it, but it's good to hear from someone who understands what I am talking about. Most people look at me like I am crazy when I try to explain it.

Hope all this isn't too off topic, feels good to document in a way. makes me more aware of the reality of what I am messing around with.

Peace

 

[caseface99]

It didn't click until today, but i think a major symptom of PAWS I am experiencing is when i sit or law down in a way that's even just slightly uncomfortable i get pretty bad pain in my back and ribs. Would this fall under the increased sensitivity to pain category? It started getting bad about 3 weeks after stopping buprenorphine.

Also still not much improvment with skin crawling in my arms or slight temp. related discomfort.