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Producing New Lysergamides

joeyjoejoeshabadoo

Bluelighter
Joined
Dec 13, 2010
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161
Genus of fungi from the claviceps are known for containing lysergamides.
The well known one is Claviceps Purpurea.
However, there are others in the genus, which are lysergamide producing as well.
For example, Claviceps Litoralis is the richest source of alkaloid content.
Ergoclavines are also psychoactive and are present and produced in different amounts in different genus of Claviceps.

Here is a link to the genus of Claviceps.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...+•Balansia+litoralis&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

As you see, there are only two types that have dated back to human neurotoxicity poisoning: 1)C. Fusiformis and 2) C. Purpurea

This shows the different strains of Claviceps, and the difference (or sameness)of the lysergamides produced:
http://www.lycaeum.org/leda/docs/50.shtml?ID=50

And many of these genus of Claviceps prefer different substrates from the well-known rye to different grasses to bamboo.

It would be interesting to introduce some of the different strain of Claviceps to a MG plant (if possible) and compare the effects to another strain.

With that being said, another "what if" to be proposed is:

The addition of pscilocybe mycorrhizae to the underground root of a MG plant.
As you know the introduction of mycorrhizae to the roots of (usually) trees, but (sometimes) plants as well, is how truffles are produced.
But let's say the mycorrhizae is psilocybe cubensis.
What kind of (if any) effect would it have on the MG plant?
 
to my knowledge, all of the psilocybes are saprobic (consuming only dead matter), so they would not form mycorrhizae with any living plant. sorry to shoot down your thought-experiment so quickly :(

there have been many thought-experiments regarding the supplementation of psilocybe substrate with tryptophan in order to increase bioproduction of 4-HO-DMT, but it seems there is a rate-limiting enzyme that would probably make your "super vita-shrooms" just as potent as any other cubensis

as far as bioproduction of lysergides in MG, i would venture to say that a happy plant will produce more seeds, for a higher total net alkaloid content, so as long as your vines are well-fed and watered, you should expect a good crop of fresh seeds. but i would think that it's similar to the psilocybe story above: genetics will limit what actual alkaloid concentration you observe.

perhaps you should do some mendelian heredity studies with various strains of MG vines, and attempt to elucidate a home-grown strain that is high in the beneficial LSA compounds while being low in the nausea-causing components (i'm still not convinced that these are necessarily cyanogenic--- there are plenty of things that make you hurl without being explicitly poisonous)


as far as claviceps study goes, i wouldn't touch that with a ten-foot pole. sure they produce some novel lysergamides, but there is too high a risk of dangerous vasoconstriction and death by ergotism.
 
I thought the cyanogenic glycosides were only present in HBWR seeds, not MGS, and that MGS had other chemicals in them that upset the stomach?
 
I thought the cyanogenic glycosides were only present in HBWR seeds, not MGS, and that MGS had other chemicals in them that upset the stomach?

Cyanogenic glycosides are typically found in seeds.
But they can be present in leaves and bark, too.
If you ground up a bunch of apple seeds and ate them youd be in the same boat as an LSA extraction, more severe or less, depending on the seeds content.
 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19704834

^^^Claviceps strains rely on a symbiotic relationship with the host plant.
This is suspected to be done through chemical exchange on the secretory glands of the plant leaf.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2634565/

To investigate the infection process in more detail we used also symbiotic clavicipitalean fungi such as Balansia obtecta which is associated with the monocotyledonous plant Cenchrus echinatus (Poaceae). The fungus is known to produce ergoline alkaloids. Since this experiment resultet in a necrotic reaction of the inoculated dicotyledonous plants (Table 1) we also used Claviceps purpurea as an inoculant, a fungus which has a much broader host plant spectrum with more than 200 susceptible hosts.13 Again, a necrotic reaction in which the inoculated plants shed all leaves occurred (Table 1). These observations are again in line with experiences which had been encountered with grass plants and their symbiotic fungi:“… each mutualistic grass-endophyte symbiosis appears to require close coadaptation of host and endophyte.”12 The beneficial relation between plant associated fungi and their host requires a fine tuned interaction.

^^^Claviceps not symbiotic with the host causes the host to undergo necrosis.

If the volatile oil secreted from the plant leaf determines the symbiotism of Clavicep strain and its host and:

"Essential oils produced from plants belonging to the same plant family can have similar characteristics and can produce the same results."

Then: working backwards from that knowledge, i propose the identification of oils secreted by 2 different plants, but of the same family, can be properly identified, and similarily matched.
From this, any number of claviceps strains can be introduced to its proper symbiotic host, thereby producing lysergamides in a plant species unknown to produce lysergamides.

The problem is finding proper information on the aromatic oil constituents of any species of MG.
I found a site that lists A-Z plant pheromones and volatile oils.
Yet for some reason MG oils are void of info.

I did have slight luck finding info on ipomoea purpurea oil constituents.
It contains:
3-damascenone
E-Phytol

That's it for now, but i will keep searching.
 
to my knowledge, all of the psilocybes are saprobic (consuming only dead matter), so they would not form mycorrhizae with any living plant. sorry to shoot down your thought-experiment so quickly :(

there have been many thought-experiments regarding the supplementation of psilocybe substrate with tryptophan in order to increase bioproduction of 4-HO-DMT, but it seems there is a rate-limiting enzyme that would probably make your "super vita-shrooms" just as potent as any other cubensis

as far as bioproduction of lysergides in MG, i would venture to say that a happy plant will produce more seeds, for a higher total net alkaloid content, so as long as your vines are well-fed and watered, you should expect a good crop of fresh seeds. but i would think that it's similar to the psilocybe story above: genetics will limit what actual alkaloid concentration you observe.

perhaps you should do some mendelian heredity studies with various strains of MG vines, and attempt to elucidate a home-grown strain that is high in the beneficial LSA compounds while being low in the nausea-causing components (i'm still not convinced that these are necessarily cyanogenic--- there are plenty of things that make you hurl without being explicitly poisonous)


as far as claviceps study goes, i wouldn't touch that with a ten-foot pole. sure they produce some novel lysergamides, but there is too high a risk of dangerous vasoconstriction and death by ergotism.

Hey thanks for stopping in.
I did manage to find at least one strain of psilocybe truffle, grown from Psilocybe Tampanensis, aka "Philosopher's Stone" a hallucinagenic psilocybe species.

The psilocybe/tryptophan idea sounds interesting.
I also heard something about injecting dopamine into some psychedic plants to increase the intensity and concentration of alkaloids.

Yes taking care of ones MG plant is sure to produce fine results,
However,
In one of the links i posted, (or maybe forgot to?) it showed a comparison of ergine constituents of different MG's and HBWR.
Some have more of alkaloids that are oxytocic.
This is what i learned today about why i have experienced euphoria with some LSA containing seeds, while with others sedation.
Therefore, although proper growing is essential, there must be other factors introduced in order to produce a more favorable strain, ie: mix of alkies.

I have another thread going about garlic, thiosulfides and cyanide detox.
So far a nice garlic CWE is winning the battle against whatever causes discomfort.
I say cyanide bc sulfur is used to detox it, and garlic is abundant in sulfide compounds.

As far as the claviceps idea goes, yeah im a little sketched by that, but as documented there are only 2 known species to cause neurotoxicity. One of them being C. Purpurea, which is okay unless youre accustomed to believing people are werewolves and witches.
 
good job on finding the tampanensis, and i also believe atlantis can form sclerotia ("truffles") in the proper conditions. but the formation of truffles is not the same as symbiotic mycorrhizae, so you're still at a dead-end. i don't mean to be a buzzkill sorry :\

i recall reading that morning glory seeds were highest in LSA (lysergic acid amide, LA-111) and LSH (lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide) when they are freshly ripe-harvested. these apparently degrade the fastest into isoergine and other less desirable alkaloids, so "last year's" seed crop will be a totally different trip than fresh seed.


your studies into the garlic link are very interesting, and i wish i had a fresh batch of MG to test your theories :)
 
good job on finding the tampanensis, and i also believe atlantis can form sclerotia ("truffles") in the proper conditions. but the formation of truffles is not the same as symbiotic mycorrhizae, so you're still at a dead-end. i don't mean to be a buzzkill sorry :\

i recall reading that morning glory seeds were highest in LSA (lysergic acid amide, LA-111) and LSH (lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide) when they are freshly ripe-harvested. these apparently degrade the fastest into isoergine and other less desirable alkaloids, so "last year's" seed crop will be a totally different trip than fresh seed.


your studies into the garlic link are very interesting, and i wish i had a fresh batch of MG to test your theories :)

True, true.
I'll have to do some reasearch into what conditions and factors are involved in mycorrhizae forming a symbiotic relationship with a root system.
But, my guess is that it is much the same as the secretory glands in the leaf.
Different parts of the plant give off different (and/or) the same oils.
In this case it would be the roots batch of aromatics.

^^^a few interesting questions are:

1)can a plant be carefully fed a diet, consisting of that which it needs to secrete, in order to bond with its matching myco?
Theory
Our bodies secrete pheromones/oils strongly related to dietary intake.
By feeding a plant on a safe diet (well obviously) of selected 'foods', one can alter its secretions as well.
If the secretions of any plant can be altered, to match those of a host plant for myco, then theoretically any plant can be made a host plant.

(When a myco has something the plant wants, and the plant has something the myco wants, a symbiotic bond is formed.)
 
No idea what the flying blue fuck some people are making connections between Claviceps spp. and psilocybes.

About the ONLY correlation between the two is both produce indole compounds, and both have links to psychedelic indolic compounds, either completely natural, or synthetic psychedelic lysergamides that require extensive chemical manipulation before one gets the goods.

As far as C.fusiformis goes, don't even bother, unless you want to do some serious work cloning and transfecting some of the genes involved in the lysergic acid pathways, DMAT-synthase, the gene responsible for formation of dimethylallyltryptophan, the first step in formation of the lysergic acid ring structure is functional.

But, the pathway stops at one of the lower to middle stage clavines, elymoclavine if I remember rightly, I would have to look it up in my project research collection, if I can find the C.fusiformis stuff, although I completely abandoned any attempts to culture or obtain C.fusiformis after learning that although almost all of the genes in the biosynthetic pathways to the lysergide ring productivity were *present* there are point mutations in certain of those key genes that render the enzymes thus produced inactive, and therefore useless for those who may intend producing lysergic acid itself, or its derivatives.

C.Purpurea has potential, but is toxic as is, one will need the skills to clean up the extraction of the finished product.

As far as culture of the fungus goes, for C.purpurea, one needs a very high concentration of sugars, mannitol is good for most strains is known to work well, in quantities of 100g/liter even, or slightly more, C.purpurea is REALLY fucking sugar hunger!!! although inclusion of sorbitol may really boost yields of ergotamine and related peptidic alkaloids.

sugar alcohols, I.E slowly absorbing sugars mainly, are desirable glucose MUST be avoided, as it leads to formation of polysaccharide gloop that interferes with oxygen transport, which is vital, and indeed problematic in submerged culture, as increasing stirring rate, or agitation of the culture vessels is one way to increase oxygen uptake, as of course, there are oxidase/oxidoreductase enzymatic steps, which require of course, oxygen, to form alkaloids of greater oxidation states than the lower oxidaton state clavine steps, until one has the ergopeptam/ergopeptine alkaloids sought after.

But, however, ergot HATES being bashed around, and rough treatment, however slight, will take a big stomp on ones yields, as will spray atomization of the ascospores or coaxial air-jet breakup for immobilization in alginate polymer using CaCl to exchange Ca2+ for Na alginate salts, and crosslink it. Just plop some gaviscon (UK formula at least has a lot of Na alginate in it, into some CaCl solution, and watch it polymerize into something hard and rubbery, neat looking experiment to do. Unsuitable mind you, for ergot culture, as Gaviscon anti heartburn medicine contains parabens, which are preservatives, antibacterials and presumably, obnoxious to fungi.

Production media needs low phosphate levels, phosphate level seems to be strongly correlated with alkaloid production, high levels being nescessary for growth, yet phosphate depleted media is a requirement for efficient alkaloid yield. Addition of arsenite salts (caution, pretty nasty, toxic stuff) I am pretty tired right now, and am not quite sure where my big collection of printed journal articles on ergot culture, maintainence, and strain selection via mutation studies is, I have been pretty sick of late, so I CBA looking those up, but the arsenite references including ratio of phosphate to arsenic, as it isn't an absolute thing with the quantity of arsenite, but the important factor is the RATIO between phosphate and arsenite.

Arsenite references can be dug up easily though online by searching 'Claviceps purpurea and arsenite' there can be dug up as can references on ideal medium electrolyte/salt and sugar blends for optimized medium, mind you, different strains can be vastly differing in requirements. Wild type ergot strains are generally crappy yielding, and extensive mutation studies are usually required to isolate a high productive strain, its something like one two three in a few hundred end up yielding 450-500mg of ergopeptide/ergopeptam alkaloids, and one in maybe 900-1000 isolates will end up yielding some real decent strain providing 900-1000mg/liter of medium.

Other tips are -adding tweens to the medium, this decreases surface tension and allows for increased efficiency of nutrient uptake into the fungus and rapid growth.

Alkaloid production is strictly dependent on a heterokaryotic condition of the fungal isolate, homokarotic strains will give you fuck all, on the order of 15-20mg/liter!

Addition of fluoroalkanes VASTLY improves oxygen transport into the fungus, different ones will have different success rates, it simply depends on the oxygen solubility of the different ones, perfluorooctyl bromide has been known to used with success, but I am sure benefit could be gained from looking up various data on oxygen solubility of different fluorinated alkanes, or fluoro-haloalkanes, the more oxygen carrying capacity, the better, sonication should do the trick to form an emulsion fit to be added to the medium, the finer the emulsion the better, to avoid sinking to the bottom, as I assume they will do, , as agitation of course, will diminish yield considerably.

Also, one thing about Claviceps spp. is that in particular, the case of C.purpurea, the fungi after a certain number of medium transfers, after draining off for extraction and recovery of alkaloid yield, after 5-6 transfers at most, the yield starts to decline rapidly, until there is at most a hundred mg or so, or even less, it becomes senescent and the strain needs rejuvenating via inducing the parasitic lifestyle on grain, leading to formation of sclerotia and re-culture, and isolation via ascospores.

The best technique seems to be electrostatic spraying of Na-alginate mixed with the finely divided mycelium, it will have to be blended, unless one can isolate a solution of ascospores, but in the case of grown myc, then blending is a must, but maybe a MAXIMUM of ten seconds in a homogenizer, or in a pinch, a blender, into CaCl solution to polymerize into solidified pellets, through charged needles, approximately 3-4ml/hour per needle, pushed through the needles via a syringe driver under moderate air pressure.

Narrower gauge needles result in decreased size of the microspheres, a size of at most 250 micrometers is desirable, above 150 without perfluorohaloalkane/perfluoroalkane emulsion (to be included in the mixture for alginate encapsulation) one ends up with an anoxic environment. Both addition of perfluorocarbon emulsion to the media for growth, are useful.

Immobilization in such a manner seems most practical, fungal senescence is held off considerably, thus one can crank out more lysergic acid goodies for longer. If one covers the formed alginate beads in a layer of polymerized chitosan, cell leackage into the medium is minimized.



As for morning glory/HBWR seed, I am absolutely certain, 100% so, that it is NOT the plants themselves that produce the alkaloids, but an obligate endophytic fungus species, ergot alkaloid seems totally restricted to fungi, or bacteria, where plants have been observed to form ergot type alkaloids, such as Stipa grasses 'sleepy grass', or those Lolium species that produce lolines and some quantity, although quantity wise vastly overshadowed by loline content, it again is an endophytic fungus, as far as I know in the morning glory/HBWR etc families, strictly obligated to form a symbiotic relationship with the host plant.

Some
 
There are amino acid substrates that can be added to claviceps to get them to produce LSD instead of making u produce it yourself. Not sure what these amino acids are, found the article once, couldn't find it again. Perhaps other substrates can be used to make other cool compounds like Lysergic acid-2-butylamide etc... This same principle is applied to psilocybes in the same manner with tryptamines(not tryptophan-doesn't work)like Mexamine/5-meo-dmt/aMT... Perhaps using tryptophan analogs with claviceps will yeild similar results but again I'm not sure what "amino acid substrate"they're talkn about
 
Addition of tryptophan to the production (as opposed to initial seeding medium, for which T2 medium is often quite sufficient) will kickstart productivity due to increase in transcription rate, and thus increased expression of DMAT-synthase, pretty much the first step towards the ergoline ring getting formed.

I strongly believe it futile in the extreme to try and have the fungus directly produce psychedelic lysergamides, they are pretty unstable, and will be more so in solution, remember they are light sensitive, isomerise to crap pretty easily, although the D-isolysergic isomers can be re-isomerised back to good stuff again, but L-iso-lysergides, or lumi-lysergic acid derivatives are, well, a waste of space.

Stuff is hydrolytically unstable, sensitive to light, heat, atmospheric oxidation, you name it, lysergic acid amide of choice fucking hates it :\

So having it produce the more stable peptides, which can be hydrolysed with base to lysergic acid itself, then used in the synthesis method of choice to the final product is far more practically sensible than trying to have LSD or any of its relatives in situ, for stability reasons.

SO yes, tryptophan can increase yield, by acting as an enzyme inducer.

Another lil tidbit about Claviceps purpurea, is that reversion of an auxotrophic mutant for a required aminoacid, in particular, if directed or somehow otherwise occuring for tryptophan, but afaik for most aminoacids, to a prototrophic stable strain, will vastly increase yield of the strain, via essentially decoupling enzyme expression feedback mechanisms that tell the fungus to lessen production once a certain level is reached, basically un-linking promotor from repressor type factors, and leading to a large scale overexpression of enzymes in the metabolic pathways involved in lysergic peptides and the like.

As can supplementation of clavines which must be seperated out of any batch yield, feeding immediate precursors will to some degree boost yield further, although I doubt it will be fully utilized, unless one tweaks and finds out the exact consumption level of said supplement.

Also, another thing, since heterokaryotic strains are a MUST for yield to be anything but traces, I read a study that was otherwise quite boring, as it was merely a radiolabel tracer study of some variety on C.purpurea metabolism of IIRC acetate and glucose, but it contained reference to use of the mitotic spindle poison colchicine, occasionally used to treat gout, although extremely toxic, this can be used to induce polyploidy in plants, and it appears in fungi also, addition of colchicine to a growing culture of C.purpurea made a large increase in growth, and vigor, nothing was said about alkaloid yield, but one would think, that induction of polyploidy would logically result, given the fungus having that need for heterokaryotic status that it does, for production, would give such an increase in yield.

Another thing that AFAIK as never been done, or if it has, the pharm companies are keeping it to themselves, is exposure to mitogens, which cause cell division after doubling of chromosomes. What I want to know, if one could time it just right, first inducing chromosome doubling in preperation for cell division, essentially temporary polyploidy induction prior to seperation into two cells, then catching it just at the right time, and hitting it with colchicine, inhibiting cell division, yet leaving the cell population with overexpression of pretty much everything on a vast scale, AND causing polyploidy...what will that one do for yield.

Sadly my studies are coming on slow as hell due to lack of funding, excruciatingly so, its pissing me off big time, having barely enough to eat, but eventually I will get there, where there is a will, as they say, there is a way also.
 
There are amino acid substrates that can be added to claviceps to get them to produce LSD instead of making u produce it yourself. Not sure what these amino acids are, found the article once, couldn't find it again. Perhaps other substrates can be used to make other cool compounds like Lysergic acid-2-butylamide etc... This same principle is applied to psilocybes in the same manner with tryptamines(not tryptophan-doesn't work)like Mexamine/5-meo-dmt/aMT... Perhaps using tryptophan analogs with claviceps will yeild similar results but again I'm not sure what "amino acid substrate"they're talkn about

Hey thanks for your input. That's something i'll look into.
 
No idea what the flying blue fuck some people are making connections between Claviceps spp. and psilocybes.

I know i write a lot and some folks will skim through briefly, but for those who clicked on this thread:

1. It is about infecting host plants with the chosen claviceps strain
2. Creating a synthetic symbiotic relationship between claviceps and a
non-host plant
3. Infecting a MG plants root system with a species of psilocybe truffle

It is NOT about integrating claviceps and psilocybe as people may have misunderstood.
 
As for morning glory/HBWR seed, I am absolutely certain, 100% so, that it is NOT the plants themselves that produce the alkaloids, but an obligate endophytic fungus species, ergot alkaloid seems totally restricted to fungi, or bacteria, where plants have been observed to form ergot type alkaloids, such as Stipa grasses 'sleepy grass', or those Lolium species that produce lolines and some quantity, although quantity wise vastly overshadowed by loline content, it again is an endophytic fungus, as far as I know in the morning glory/HBWR etc families, strictly obligated to form a symbiotic relationship with the host plant.

Yes, i believe on one of the links i have posted, there is/was research done into hallucinagenic plants and claviceps.
What the researchers found was that the claviceps were actually present in seeds and the plant.
Claviceps contain lysergamides within their center.
The type of lysergamides produced depend on the strain.
Most strains produce the same type of alkies, but some more than others or less than others.
Some produce a higher concentration and total alkie variation.
Anybody who has been interested in LSA knows that different lysergamides produce different effects in the body.
^^^That's why some lysergamides are used in OTC migraine headache medicine.
And that's why my trip on HBWR has ALWAYS, ALWAYS been different than MG's.
Yes HBWR is much less work, but what does that tell you? You get out what you put in.

The goal here is to produce an alkie-yielding plant to give the DESIRED lysergamides, not just a high alkie content, as professed by some online 'gardeners'.
There are many more psychedelic lysergamides than the ~10 people have heard about.
 
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