Problems integrating dissociative trips

[Cyanoide]

I'm not really sure whether this is a question or rather just curiosity about whether other have similiar experiences as I.

To date I haven't done any other dissociative than MXE, but I've used and abused it a lot, both in low and high doses. I've however noticed that, unlike on psychedelics, dissociative trips are very hard to integrate. I have a few of my own theories as why this is the case, but it would be interesting to hear what other people have to say and if anyone feels the same. Psychedelics give me a mental clarity that MXE doesn't, they are less confusing although obviously they can be quite confusing at high doses. However, they are nowhere near as confusing as dissociative trips. Dissociative trips feel more dreamlike and I feel less attached to myself, while psychedelics feel more "real", more "in your face". After a high dose MXE trip it almost feels like the whole experience has been a dream, and often the things I experience on the trips are just as confusing, weird and surreal as dreams can be. On psychedelics everything feels more logic, like a puzzle where all pieces get together. The dissociative puzzle always remains unsolved, and I'm left...puzzled.

I immensely enjoy MXE trips, however confusing they may be, but I almost never gain any real insight or "revelations" about myself. As I prefer introspective psychedelic trips they are like a learning process for me, I usually have something to "take with me" to normal life so to speak. Some new knowledge about myself or the mind. I do get millions of great ideas about various things on dissociative trips, about how to live my life, things I need to do or change, but after the trip I always find that those ideas are silly at the best or utter nonsense at worst. While tripping I'm convinced I can do a lot of things in my life that are totally unrealistic. This does not happen with psychedelics. Psychedelics make me more humble and lets me ponder things from different angles, while the dissociative trips only focus on one angle that, while tripping, seems to be the ultimate solution for many things (especially problems in my life).

It's obvious the dissociative and psychedelic experience are different in nature. I can fully understand that. But I'm a bit puzzled about why MXE, clearly a mind-expanding drug that digs into your subconscious and feels spiritual at high doses seems to often confuse me more than give any sort of clarity. The only thing I've really learned from the trips are how unimaginable strange and bizarre experiences a human can experience. I don't always have to learn deep truths about anything. Sometimes the experience itself is enjoyable enough. I also often feel a deep inner peace with MXE. But sometimes I guess I wish MXE, a compound I really love, would give more clarity and less confusion. Like psychedelics do to me.

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the matter and if you are capable of integrating high-dose dissociative trips into something that makes sense afterwards? Anyone with similiar experiences, or the opposite?

 

[wayab]

in my experiance usually
dissociatives are focused on the interaction you-you(or you - desired-by-you-reality)
psychedelics are focused on the interaction you-else
but on occasion they have switched roles
haha dont know if that makes sense

 

[RhythmSpring]

I can relate to this a lot.

Last night I had what felt like a pretty productive ketamine trip. I meditated and I felt like explored some important parts of myself. I felt like I had all sorts of revelations. But this morning, I remember them as if I remember a dream: not very well, if at all.

Ketamine seems to enhance my long term memory at the detriment to my short term memory. While on it, many old memories turned up quite vividly. While I still remember the memories (thankfully) I don't remember much else. I'm sure if I really concentrate I can access what I learned, but it is certainly harder with dissociatives than with psychedelics.

I wonder if mixing dissociatives with psychedelics would fix this problem? While on ket I considered snorting some 4-aco-dmt...

A quick note about Salvia: Though it is considered a dissociative, I find that it's more of a natural-feeling state that is ideal for introspection and *retaining* the self-knowledge you've gained. The key is moderation. If you do ~60x or something and go into the netherworld and dance with the elves, you might not learn much about yourself, let alone remember it.

But if you do moderate amounts, say somewhere between 1x and 15x, and stay in THIS reality, perhaps in dark silence with the intention to learn and grow, there is much to be gained and retained. I find that the higher the dosage, the more you forget.

 

[Cyanoide]

in my experiance usually
dissociatives are focused on the interaction you-you(or you - desired-by-you-reality)
psychedelics are focused on the interaction you-else
but on occasion they have switched roles
haha dont know if that makes sense

I kind of agree and disagree. It's true dissociatives focus much on the interaction between me-me and that, generally, on psychedelics you interact more with everything that surrounds you, both visually and auditory. That's why e.g. the wrong surrounding, wrong people, wrong music etc. can have a huge impact on a psychedelic trip. But I disagree in the sense that psychedelic trips can be very introspective and on such trips the interaction is between you and your mind (me-me).

I've never really paid much attention to my surroundings on dissociative trips, the place does not play such an important role. This is because I feel detached from my surroundings, while on psychedelics I can be extremely attached to simple things like a stone or a leaf.

 

[Termino]

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the matter and if you are capable of integrating high-dose dissociative trips into something that makes sense afterwards? Anyone with similiar experiences, or the opposite?

Moderate to high dose MXE sessions tend to leave me with mixed feelings. I've had incredible times, especially when listening to guided meditations or stuff like Psychic TV or Current 93. I've traveled quite deeply into myself and had some great breakthroughs (I think). But you're absolutely right - I can remember only the vaguest outline of the experience, so there's really nothing lasting to bring out into the 'sober' state. And it seems that the higher the dose, the more incredible the experience but the less details I can recall.

 

[Aporia]

I'm not as personally familiar with dissociatives as I am with classic psychs but would writing your experiences down while intoxicated help you to remember and then integrate your experience? Are you able to physically function while tripping?

 

[Cyanoide]

I'm not as personally familiar with dissociatives as I am with classic psychs but would writing your experiences down while intoxicated help you to remember and then integrate your experience? Are you able to physically function while tripping?

Tripping on high doses of dissociatives differs from psychedelics in that dissociatives impair you motorically, more or less. You don't walk straight after taking 100mg+ MXE. But writing is certainly not impossible. I've never thought of it actually. The problem is I'll probably write a lot of things that makes no sense whatsoever in a sober state or just seem ridiculous. Some of my ideas on dissociative trips seem almost megalomanic, I get great ideas about how to change my life etc. that are just absurd.

 

[Nephtys]

I have trouble integrating dissociative trips too. It's just weird to integrate them, in the past I even misinterpreted a nice keta trip.
At this very moment I doubt I'll be able to learn a lot out of dissociatives.

 

[Chris Timothy]

Very strange. In my case, dissociatives helped me integrating unsuccesfully integrated shroom experiences.

I would say MXE gives me a mental clarity psychedelics don't. If MXE confuses me, I have dosed too high.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Dissociative trips feel more dreamlike

dissociatives are focused on the interaction you-you(or you - desired-by-you-reality)

The problem is I'll probably write a lot of things that makes no sense whatsoever in a sober state or just seem ridiculous. Some of my ideas on dissociative trips seem almost megalomanic, I get great ideas about how to change my life etc. that are just absurd.

Notice a theme? Think about how dissociatives work, if Psychedelics remove the filters as Huxley put it and allow us to think more freely (hyperassociative), dissociatives you damming off large sections of your brain and working at half-capacity. Is it any wonder then that the experiences the produce are so ethereal, that the delusions they produce wonkier (really you can convince yourself to believe anything on dissociatives) than those of psychs?

Sartre said that free-will is created by the ability of conscious beings (ourselves) to negate. We can think about what isn't, work in terms other than those before us. It is appropriate that then the recreational entheogens present only because of their invention by humans are those that work through negation. But negation is intangible by nature, your brain can't hold on well to realizations made that way, for they fall short of That Which Is by denying the cosmological part of existence.

In short, the Tower of Babel will not reach heaven, Nature shall strike down your monument of denial:

1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.
3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The LORD said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel—because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

 

[Nephtys]

There's always a backdoor :D

 

[Sepher]

I've not had any profound insights or moments of clarity whatsoever on Methoxetamine. None that I can remember anyways, but pretty sure there was nothing to remember in the first place. At doses high enough to fully dissociate into an M-hole the first thing that breaks down for me is language and its structures so keeping even the most basic internal monologue going takes concentration and effort. Difficult to integrate an experience when the tools needed to interpret and compartmentalise it for later examination are effectively unavailable. The language of dissociatives seems totally other to my usual one, being fundamentally mathematical, quantum-mechanical even, my 'self' being an almost indistinguishable part of a sea of possibility detached from memory, language or anything else that would ordinarily define and give shape to it. It's a complete disconnect from the usual verbal modes of thought which is why nothing's graspable and retainable enough to come back out from the experience.

 

[Cyanoide]

Have you tried the "new batch"??

What do you mean by the "new batch"? Which batch?

I've always used MXE from the same vendor and it has been top quality. This was the first (and last) time I used a batch from another vendor.

 

[Cyanoide]

-------PCP causes psychosis
-------PCE causes psychosis
3-MeO-PCE, used every day, in high doses etc. etc.

Sure MXE can induce a psychosis, no doubt about that. I think I may have had some kind of small psychotic episode on my last trip.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

PCP is known to cause irreparable psychosis over prolonged-usage - There is a wealth of scientific and historical data about this on the internet
PCE is known to cause a lot more psychotic behavior than PCP, and was therefore not as popular as PCP

If there's such a wealth of info, how about you site us some? Or maybe you're just talking a bunch of bullshit.

The sober community says that seeing patterns where there are none is called "psychosis"

No, it's called apophenia, and is not symptomatic of psychosis, as the human mind is hard-wired to find patterns. Ever see a constellation? Or a resemblance of a face in some object(s)? Doesn't make you psychotic does it?

 

[Axed]

I feel the same way, Cyanoide. I finished off my MXE last night, and while it was an interesting experience, I feel like there's a lot of it I don't remember, but what I do remember doesn't seem very significant. If anything, I feel like I'm mostly just drifting around on a sea, with my thoughts blunted. Most of my revelations while on this substance are usually on the same concepts: the mechanical nature of things.