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Prerequisites for stimulants to work at all

S

soulman82

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Joined
Jul 6, 2010
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9
First post, hi everybody! (Not sure if this is advanced enough for this section, but it seems to be too advanced for most people...)

I have ADD, the non-hyperactive kind. No stimulant, or stubstance other people find stimulating, works for me. In short, they don't stimulate me, they don't make my mind sharper, nothing. Just some side effects, usually mild, depending on substance and dosage. This applies to everything from caffeine to amphetamine. Nicotine, caffeine, cocaine, Ritalin, pharmaceutical amphetamine, modafinil (Provigil), Strattera, Wellbutrin.... all useless to me. I'm not looking to get high or hyper, I just want to achieve a normal level of mental clarity and drive.

Can anybody with extensive knowledge on the subject give me some possible (theoretical) reasons why I seem to be "immune" to stimulants? The only possibility I've come up with is some level of undiagnosed hypothyroidism. Maybe I need to treat that (with thyroid hormone) before the stimulants can do their job - or maybe then I won't need them at all. Any thoughts on this, or anything else?

Of course I will discuss this with doctors, but most of them seem to have never delved as deep as some of the knowledgeable people on these forums.

To reiterate, I'm not looking for an analysis of ME, specifically. Just looking for any accumulated knowledge and theories on the subject.
 
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What do you expect stimulants to be able to do for you? For some people they can be useful for increasing motivation in the short term, but they are far from being any type of comprehensive solution to attention disorders. It is also of note that many people don't find them useful at all.

Have you sincerely tried any alternatives to stimulants, like an intensive nutrition and exercise regimen, talk therapy, etc. ?
 
Roger&Me said:
What do you expect stimulants to be able to do for you? For some people they can be useful for increasing motivation in the short term, but they are far from being any type of comprehensive solution to attention disorders. It is also of note that many people don't find them useful at all.

Have you sincerely tried any alternatives to stimulants, like an intensive nutrition and exercise regimen, talk therapy, etc. ?
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I expect them to do for me what they do for everyone I know who has tried them. Like I said, increased mental clarity/focus would be a good start.
Why do I keep getting replies like these no matter where or whom I ask? :\ I was asking for theories on what might prevent stimulants from doing "their job". How useful their effect turns out to be in the long run is another question entirely.
I should add that built-up tolerance from previous use is not a factor in my case, as there hasn't been any.
 
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People's neurology varies a great deal. Stimulants might simply not work well for you. Unfortunately, neurology is not currently advanced enough to say why. It could be that you're highly sensitive to adrenergic effects, but it could also be something else entirely.

ebola
 
I would use the strongest stimulant available based on your strange response so that would be dextroamphetamine IR, not ER.

Then dose it in the 30mg to 40mg range. If you get nothing from that id be shocked. With amphetamine the dose has to be higher to cause the monoamine transporters to reverse and for it to start releasing monoamines from cytoplasm through forced release. At lower doses amphetamine acts more as a re-uptake inhibitor like ritalin, where as higher doses cause the forced release of dopamine and NE.


Have you tried dextoamphetamine IR at high doses?
 
Dude, he may already be experienced with d-amphetamine in the dosages that you recommend (the term "pharmaceutical amphetamine" is ambiguous, and he didn't note the dosages). Also, your description of reuptake inhibition accounting for a higher proportion of amp's effects at low dosage levels applies equally well to dexedrine, adderall, or racemic amphetamine.

ebola
 
bben said:
I would use the strongest stimulant available based on your strange response so that would be dextroamphetamine IR, not ER.

Then dose it in the 30mg to 40mg range. If you get nothing from that id be shocked. With amphetamine the dose has to be higher to cause the monoamine transporters to reverse and for it to start releasing monoamines from cytoplasm through forced release. At lower doses amphetamine acts more as a re-uptake inhibitor like ritalin, where as higher doses cause the forced release of dopamine and NE.


Have you tried dextoamphetamine IR at high doses?
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Here in Iceland the only pharmaceutical amphetamine available is amphetamine sulphate. No dex. I tried going up to 30mg of that (didn't feel different from 10 or 20), but the doctor didn't like that at all and said that 30-40 was really the maximum dosage anyone should take, ever.
I did not know that it takes higher doses for amph. to act on more than reuptake. Thanks.
 
Amphetamine's forced release of monoamines was one of the reasons I thought that it might work despite the ineffectiveness of methylphenidate. Most doctors I asked seemed to be of the opinion that if methylphenidate didn't work, amphetamine wouldn't either.

Now that I know that it depends on dosage, could it really be that there is a certain dosage threshold I need to cross to feel any real effect/benefit? Could it go from pretty much nothing at 30 to "bingo!" at 50?
 
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I did not know that it takes higher doses for amph. to act on more than reuptake. Thanks.
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At those kinds of doses (30-40 mg of the racemate), amphetamine functions as a releaser. Even if it begins working at higher doses, you wander into unhealthy territory for regular use.

ebola
 
BTW my thyroid seems fine - low TSH (1.5)... But some are saying I should still have my T4 (thyrosine) checked just to make sure.
 
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ebola? said:
At those kinds of doses (30-40 mg of the racemate), amphetamine functions as a releaser. Even if it begins working at higher doses, you wander into unhealthy territory for regular use.

ebola
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Oh well. I guess that settles that. :(
 
A single dose of 50 mg amphetamine is not problematic for those lacking a heart condition (note that taking a high dose of a stimulant is an inordinately bad way to find out :P) AND who respond mutedly to the medication. However, yeah, you might be outta luck as far as using stimulants as maintenance meds.

ebola
 
You can perhaps try dextromethamphetamine. You are aware that medications work for 70-80% of those with ADHD, you might be in the group that aren't helped much.
 
basically you need to accept yourself instead of drugging your brains out.

what is up with people nowadays? amphetamine when used even in small doses felt to me to be very damaging and easily leads to a psychological addiction. if you have problems with attention and behaviour there are ways to work around them. most people in the world with "adhd" dont take drugs, they simply find a job that is enjoyable where they can move around a lot and switch their attention span often. school settings and sitting down all day/later life office work(un healthy- want a culprit for america's obesity, there you have one) is not how humanity got so far ahead, it has more to do with people pulling their finger out of their ass and building stuff, or thinking heavily in the case of scientists. all this "i have to be normal" complex has come from an american way of thinking in the last fifty years. and its complete bollocks.
 
pofacedhoe: Most of what you said I don't agree with, and doesn't apply to me anyway.
 
A quick clarification, so everyone's on-board:

We only have amphetamine sulphate here. No dextro- or meth-.
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dextro-amp is nearly always the sulphate salt too. meth is usually the dextro-isomer but the hydrochloride salt. By "amphetamine sulphate", you very likely mean the racemate.

ebola
 
I don't know what they expect you to do in those countries that don't have d-amp or pharmaceutical meth if you are not helped by the other drugs. I have inattentive ADHD and of all the pharmaceuticals I've tried, the only one that helps and I can tolerate is d-amphetamine. Dextroamp becomes helpful for me in the 20-30mg range, and I need 30+ for a good effect. Adderall causes me intolerable side effects, and there is quite old research documenting that levoamp has a nastier side effect profile than the d- isomer. It may be that 30-40mg of racemic amphetamine is the safe limit, but since l-amp doesn't contribute much to the benefits, that severely limits the benefit you can achieve compared to pure d-amp.

The only thing I can suggest is that perhaps you can get your doctor to agree to a higher dose of amphetamine if you throw in a beta blocker or something to limit the cardiac side effects.
 
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