Opioids Poppy pods & alcohol extraction

[cook]

So I am looking different ways of extracting the goodies from poppies.

How does alcohol extraction compare to water extraction in terms of how much of unwanted things is extracted in the solution? The reason I ask this is because I've made water extracts but found that there's just too much plant materials that gets dissolved in water despite filtering with the ice-method, paraffin wax and using 0.22 micron filter. Is alcohol (ethanol, PG, isopropyl alcohol) even worse? I'm looking for the purest possible extract without actually trying to isolate the opiates which is too difficult since I am not very familiar with chemistry, just a hobby for me.

I hope this is not against the rules as I saw it would not be.

 

[sekio]

Alcohol will be slightly more selective in terms of morphine extracted. The real problem you run into is poppy heads don't contain a lot of alkaloids, in terms of total extractables, so *any* extraction will extract some plant derived shit too.

The "original" method, Kabay process I think, used multiple extractions with water at varying pH. Modern extractions are done with alcohols. Isopropanol or ethanol are your best bet. Don't use methanol or PEG - methanol is toxic, PEG is nonvolatile.

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=83605

This is the best and fastest guide I have read for preparing poppy-straw derivatives. You can follow it all the way to produce morphine base if you want, or leave it at the alcohol extract stage.

The general procedure for commercial morphine preparation seems to be roughly this -
1. Boil poppy straw in alkali solution and extract soluble morphinate salts into alcohol.
2. Remove the alcohol, transfer the mass into alkaline water, remove insolubles.
3. Slowly adjust the pH downwards, removing precipitates by filtration or e.g. toluene extraction.
4. By the time you hit pH 9 morphine should crash out as a fairly pure product

Of course if you are comfortable with making pantopon or whatever you can do the lazy man's one-two process:
1. Bring poppy straw in aqueous solution to slightly acidic
2. Defat with naptha or whatever
3. Bring to moderate alkalinity and extract with dichloromethane

 

[cook]

Thanks for that, seems like a decent article and info to start with. I think I'll go with isopropyl alcohol since is it easy to obtain in pure form and relatively non-toxic as well.

With water extracts I always end up with extract mass around 1/4 of the pod mass used despite all the filtering which is just not good enough. Again the article makes morphine extraction look like a piece of cake but I doubt if is. Some say from experience that it is very difficult to get a decent yield from poppy straw where the morphine concentration is low.

Is there any sense in trying to extract water-extracted powder further with alcohol?

 

[sekio]

It's not worth your time to do water extractions if you have an6y amount of alcohols, I think,

 

[cook]

Yeah, but I mean I have a shitload of water extracted powders and was thinking of "upgrading" them a bit with alcohol extraction, if it would make any difference.

 

[sekio]

It may reduce the volume of material but I'm unsure if it will be worth your while

 

[THC2LSD]

The Kabay process extracts the pods with water and a little bit of sulfuric acid or sodium bisulfite(not sure how much). The "tea" is then boiled down. The residue is then extracted with alcohol, usually ethanol, filtered, then evaporated. The concentrate of poppy straw is then suitable for precipitating the alkaloids.

Another one is to use an acid/base extraction. The pods are mixed with a little lime(calcium hydroxide) and water to a doughy consistency. Don't add too much lime otherwise the morphine will stay in the water and it won't work. Add a 1:1 mixture of butanol and toluene, separate, then back extract it into an acid solution. The acid solution can then be precipitated to get the alkaloids. 75% chloroform and 25% isopropanol might also work, but I've only read about using it on opium.

There's also another one that uses methylene chloride with 1% isopropanol. Base the pod dough, extract with the DCM/isopropanol mixture and evaporate. More practical if you set up a continuous extraction and recover the solvents.

The reason alcohols are used is because morphine's pretty damn insoluble in just about everything. Traditional A/B won't work. Even in shit it dissolves in it usually prefers to stay in the water.

There's also a bunch of patents that improve on them. Some using other salts in water for a cleaner extraction, like copper sulfate. I think the US gov has one that gets rid of the fats in the extract.

Another one is to use cation exchange resin(water softeners) to suck the alkaloids out of the tea. The alkaloids are then extracted out of the resin with an acid or a base, then either evaporated or precipitated. It's popular in Poland.

Once you've done these there's all kinds of different methods to get pure alkaloids, not just that one on opiumpoppies.org(which is for opium, not pods).

Sekio, I'm not dissing you, but much of your info is wrong. Your proposed extraction is used for opium, not poppies. That erowid one doesn't seem better or quicker that the old Kabay process. Morphine will not just drop out like crack and requires recrystalization and decolorization to come out white. It'll probably work but it doesn't say the amount of water used and basing the alcohol is probably pointless. Morphine isn't very soluble in DCM alone without isopropanol. And methanol isn't super toxic. Just completely evaporate it with proper ventilation and don't drink it

 

[Choosing_Positive]

You seem to know what the heck you are talking about THC2LSD... I have always enjoyed reading your posts. You have got to do something about your avatar pic below your name on your posts. That is that dude who almost overdosed (he did overdose, just not fatal) on RC's huh? Poor fellow looks a bit out of touch (I did see the youtube vid doc on him,... very sad). I don't really care what you have as an avatar pic, but that one just makes me remember that video and kinda makes me sad. It also brings out awareness a bit too though, so in that aspect, it is cool...other than that, not so much.....just doesn't seem to reflect your intelligence, maybe that is why you use it,

 

[mydrugbuddy]

By the 'the extraxt mass i assume you mean the raw poppy grounds, which haven't been ground down fine enouh and therfore some of the unwanted mass is not getting absoberd into your brew is just going to waste.

If i have understood what you are asking there are are a few mehods for gettting more aklaloids out of the powder, using nothing but more than fresh hot water. The simplest way is to just to a second extraction from the first batches' left overs. This doesnt seem do profuce agreat deal, but it is worth doing IMO, if you save up a day's leftovers or Something like that.

A better method is to keep on filtering each batch of powder that been blended.All the bigger bits and pieces dont get through, and you are left with only the finest powder to make your brew from, There is far less wastage from using only ultra fine powder as much more of its gets absirbed into the brew,

 

[cook]

By the 'the extraxt mass i assume you mean the raw poppy grounds, which haven't been ground down fine enouh and therfore some of the unwanted mass is not getting absoberd into your brew is just going to waste.

No, I mean if I use 100 grams of pod dust (I always turn the pods in to a dust) for water extraction I am going to end up with ~25 grams of extract after evaporation despite a lot of filtering and wax removal etc. Clearly there is too much non-active stuff in this extract having to consume 1-2 grams of it to have a decent effect (this is approx equivalent to consuming 4-8 grams of pod material).

If i have understood what you are asking there are are a few mehods for gettting more aklaloids out of the powder

No, the alkaloids seem to be very easy to extract with a good yield. Problem is the purity, this is why I considered alcohol extraction for a better (active alkaloids)/(other stuff) ratio in the extract.

I might want to try morphine extraction after I figure out the way of producing potent "opium" extract.

 

[cook]

Tried to extract an already extracted extract further with isopropyl alcohol with zero results, almost nothing was dissolved in it.

 

[DexterMeth]

Alcohol will be slightly more selective in terms of morphine extracted. The real problem you run into is poppy heads don't contain a lot of alkaloids, in terms of total extractables, so *any* extraction will extract some plant derived shit too.

The "original" method, Kabay process I think, used multiple extractions with water at varying pH. Modern extractions are done with alcohols. Isopropanol or ethanol are your best bet. Don't use methanol or PEG - methanol is toxic, PEG is nonvolatile.

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=83605

This is the best and fastest guide I have read for preparing poppy-straw derivatives. You can follow it all the way to produce morphine base if you want, or leave it at the alcohol extract stage.

The general procedure for commercial morphine preparation seems to be roughly this -
1. Boil poppy straw in alkali solution and extract soluble morphinate salts into alcohol.
2. Remove the alcohol, transfer the mass into alkaline water, remove insolubles.
3. Slowly adjust the pH downwards, removing precipitates by filtration or e.g. toluene extraction.
4. By the time you hit pH 9 morphine should crash out as a fairly pure product

Of course if you are comfortable with making pantopon or whatever you can do the lazy man's one-two process:
1. Bring poppy straw in aqueous solution to slightly acidic
2. Defat with naptha or whatever
3. Bring to moderate alkalinity and extract with dichloromethane

sekio: what did you mean in saying that PEG is nonvolatile?

 

[sekio]

polyethyleneglycol is a humongous molecule and - sort of like silicone oil or something - is a real bitch to evaporate without a high powered vaccuum pump

thc2lsd, why would basing the alcohol be useless? i always figured that morphine et cetera are present in poppy straw and opium as meconate/citrate salts, not as free bases. hence basification enhances the solubility somewhat.
afaik most reagent dcm is stabilised with 1-2 pc methanol anyway so that explains why people can use it with ok results

admittedly my extraction is super fucking crude but the lazy lay man does not have access to n-butanol the modified kabay process may be old as shit and more labour intensive but it is much easier to find H2SO4, lime, and alcohols rather than butanol and other shit..

Morphine will not just drop out like crack and requires recrystalization and decolorization to come out white.

most people don't care if they end up with 75pc morphine base that is brown to yellowish, if it gets them nodding.

 

[cook]

I'm trying to extract with pure isopropyl alcohol now from poppy straw. I was going to make it alkaline, however I found my sodium carbonate wasn't going to dissolve, so I left it out.

What's the point of raising the PH when doing alcohol extraction? Are we talking about small or major improvement of how much alkaloids the alcohol can catch or what? I'm no chemist.