Politics in 2004

[lostpunk5545]

Bush....I see it as a given, US stands for democracy and when someone attacks them...just cos we live in another country doesnt mean we dont help out....thats just looking out for each other

Modern democracy is a bad fucking joke. And so is your ignorance...

I don't think anyone has mentioned yet about our government stealing East Timor's oil, a burgeoning country recovering from the grips of a terrible oppression, that needs all the source of income it can get to lose it's third world status.

So there's another reason not to vote for Howard.

 

[syntech]

meh!
all this bitchin and moaning about how fucked up australia is and yet, do we realise we are living in the best country in the world?

but thats got nothing to do with the election really so i'll just add that i'm still sticking to my "they both suck" view.

 

[Charlie Brown]

lostpunk wrote

Modern democracy is a bad fucking joke.

If you think it is such a joke, why dont you move to China or North Korea where they are all communist states....OH NO you wont cos you are talking out off your ass

 

[apollo]

^^ He wasn't commenting on economic systems, genius. Democracy is our electoral system, so you'd be better off juxtaposing it against some totalitarian country than making reference to communism which doesn't do anything for what you're saying. Who is talking out of their arse? I recommend www.dictionary.com for you

I'm an intense critic of the government for one reason syntech; a distinct majority of material I've read about the Howard government leads to the unanimous conclusion that the qualities making Australia the best country on the face of this earth are being slowly eroded. That shits me something savage. Call me a whinger, a wanker, a hippy, a left wing pinko, whatever. I want to see this country at it's best, and I'm not going to sit around like an apathetic schmuck while economic rationalists like Howard undermine things like equal access to education and healthcare.

 

[syntech]

oh i'm with you on that one apollo.
the reason i dont want to get too involved in it all is cos it scares me. but then on the other hand i want to know the basics.


i guess the only lame excuse i have is the feeling that i really dont have the power to change what is going on. you could argue then that i shouldnt waste my vote, but i dont want to vote for anyone until i find a party that i wholeheartedly agree with.
that may be an impossible dream, but so far what i have to choose from, whatever policy i may agree with is often outweighed by one i disagree with even more strongly.
for example, the Greens harm minimisation policy and their views on some other issues. Harm minimisation, as strongly as i feel about it, isnt a strong enough suggestion as to sway my vote towards the Greens.

what makes it worse is that i cant possibly provide a better solution so as to truly back my opinion. i cant say "i wont vote for these morons cos this is the way it should be done" because i dont have the answers for everyone in this incredibly diverse nation.

so tell me what can i do?

 

[apollo]

Much like when you're painting syntech, in politics there are seldom pure colours involved. Politics is all about shades of gray. You've simply got to accept that no party will cater to your every need, opinion, etc. There will always be an element of selecting "the lesser of two evils". Heck, if it works for you, don't think of it as voting <insert party> in, think of it as voting <insert party> out. In the end, with this upcoming election it boils down to this; just not John Howard.

i guess the only lame excuse i have is the feeling that i really dont have the power to change what is going on.

Charlie Brown, you must feel like a real arse now. lostpunk5545 wasn't wrong was he; if modern democracy leaves voters feeling like they don't have the power to change things, modern democracy is a bad fucking joke because giving people the power to change things is the sole intent and purpose of democracy! Sorry to use what you said as an example syntech, it was just convenient

 

[syntech]

thats cool apollo.

i guess you're right. i should vote for a minor party (screw latham) just to put a vote against the "bad guys"

hmm....
i think you may have just changed one little persons view on politics. thanks!

 

[Taliana]

Syntech- thats great, as long as you vote.

Just make sure you don't put liberal as the next preference on the ballot paper... (ie if your first pref doesnt get in, your vote goes to the 2nd preference). (thanks thoth) ehhe

 

[Raving Loony]

I always number in all the lower house boxes and put the coalition last (well, actually I did vote them once and I've never forgiven myself).

 

[syntech]

no wuckas!!!

thanks guys

 

[lostpunk5545]

lostpunk wrote


If you think it is such a joke, why dont you move to China or North Korea where they are all communist states....OH NO you wont cos you are talking out off your ass

Well I would write my opinion but the Dead Kennedys say it a bit more articulated so I'm just going to quote.

Real freedom scares you
'Cos it means responsibility

So you chicken out and threaten me

Saying, "Love it or leave it"
I'll get beat up if I criticize it
You say you'll fight to the death
To save your worthless flag

If you want a banana republic that bad
Why don't you go move to one
But what can just one of us do?
Against all that money and power
Trying to crush us into roaches?

We don't destroy society in a day
Until we change ourselves first
From the inside out

We can start by not lying so much
And treating other people like dirt
It's easy not to base our lives
On how much we can scam

And you know
It feels good to lift that monkey off our backs

I'm thankful I live in a place
Where I can say the things I do
Without being taken out and shot
So I'm on guard against the goons
Trying to take my rights away
We've got to rise above the need for cops and laws

Let kids learn communication
Instead of schools pushing competition
How about more art and theater instead of sports?

People will always do drugs
Let's legalize them
Crime drops when the mob can't price them
Budget's in the red?
Let's tax religion

No one will do it for us
We'll just have to fix ourselves
Honesty ain't all that hard
Just put Rambo back inside your pants
Causing trouble for the system is much more fun

Thank you for the toilet paper
But your flag is meaningless to me
Look around, we're all people
Who needs countries anyway?

Our land, I love it too
I think I love it more than you
I care enough to fight

- Excerpt from Dead Kennedys - Stars and Stripes of Corruption (Not the whole song).

 

[onetwothreefour]

Originally posted by Charlie Brown
If you think it is such a joke, why dont you move to China or North Korea where they are all communist states....OH NO you wont cos you are talking out off your ass

what apollo said in response to this was absolutely correct.

but i just wanted to know why you think it is necessary for someone who disagrees with the implementation of democracy (in that the government purports to be fully democratic, but is in fact anything but) to just *move* out of the country?

what a mature and democratic response of you, charlie brown.

 

[Charlie Brown]

Apollo quoted

if modern democracy leaves voters feeling like they don't have the power to change things, modern democracy is a bad fucking joke because giving people the power to change things is the sole intent and purpose of democracy!

Having the power to say what you dont want is also a democratic power....so you are changing things right there.
Change takes time and if a party is kept out off office due to your choice, for a majority of elections their policies changes...

for example years ago we get a upstart called Pauline Hanson thinking a majority of people in Australia supports a white Australia....years later I see her saying how she was young and naive etc changing her views on aborignials and asians. why cos Australia chose to reject her...a power on its own.

So what you are saying is true abt voting the lesser of two evils..but what do you classify as evil? every policy has to target health, education, defence and a majority of people will prefer one over the other...........all views will differ and this where your vote will count in the end, cos the party that is supported by the masses will win. Just cos the party you support may lose doesnt mean your vote didnt count...it means you tried and there is always a winner and a loser you were just in the minority.

If Latham wins this election u know it was because of his policies, not because his opposition is Howard...you see I support Howard I know he has done questionable things, sent Aust to war..lied over the boat people..but has he taken Australia to the place I think is okay?....and my answer is yes..I can live with an alliance with the US, issues over the detention centres and I think hes done a good job. But this election Im seeing the policies in Labour which might sway my vote..I like the reintroduction of bulk billing, tax rebates and public school funding, so Im gonna have a long think abt Latham or Howard. But although my vote is small I think I will have a say in the future of the government in power. So dont think that democracy is seriously a joke..cos it isnt.

Apollo also pointed out

^^ He wasn't commenting on economic systems, genius. Democracy is our electoral system, so you'd be better off juxtaposing it against some totalitarian country than making reference to communism which doesn't do anything for what you're saying. Who is talking out of their arse? I recommend www.dictionary.com for you

well i checked your rcommendation and my findings as quoted

A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.

so in light of the arguement I think communism can be used in a context to refer to the authoritarian aspect which differs it to a democratic state, the methods of which government is elected. In fact used in my context makes no relation to economic systems...

Lostpunk I dont understand the meaning you are trying to imply by the Kennedy speech..care to elaborate?

 

[apollo]

Having the power to say what you dont want is also a democratic power....so you are changing things right there.

How am I changing things? Democracy = demos kratia. Demos is greek for 'the people', and kratia 'power/rule'. I.E. The people rule, or the people have power. So I'm not really changing things by saying that if the people don't feel like they've got that power, democracy isn't working.

A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.

Lexicographers should know better than to include shit like that; proof dictionary.com are amateurs. They're also silly enough not to have used the Marx word, further proof they're amateurs. I've got the concise and shorter Oxfords here; neither define it beyond an economic system. Regardless of what any dictionary says, you haven't excused your fiendishly stupid suggestion that lostpunk leave the country because he thinks democracy here is a joke. It doesn't really matter what you say, you've not got a leg to stand on with it The rest of your post is pretty agreeable really. You seem like a different person compared to a few posts ago.

My brief tour de Bluelight is over; I'm almost back to full health, and I've got better things to do. So thank you for the lively debate all.

 

[Charlie Brown]

Can Lostpunk explain why he holds a view abt my previous posts as being ignorant as per his quote...
I know beforehand he cannot back it up without bringing me into his view of politics, so hence I dont like just random spewage of the words 'ignorance' when one cannot account for why it as being said, hence talking from his ass.....furthermore if he can nominate a better system than the current modern democratic system of government we now, which takes into the complexities of human society please enlighten me.

 

[lostpunk5545]

Lostpunk I dont understand the meaning you are trying to imply by the Kennedy speech..care to elaborate?

As implied in the opening of my post I was quoting the lyrics of a song by a band called Dead Kennedys.

Most specifically the lines -

"Saying, "Love it or leave it"
I'll get beat up if I criticize it
You say you'll fight to the death
To save your worthless flag

If you want a banana republic that bad
Why don't you go move to one"

- were meant as a response to your suggestion that if I didn't like this sham of a democracy then I should clear out. If you would take a second to read the lyrics I posted then I am sure the blatantly obvious meaning of them would become apparent.

And I think it shows your short sightedness and lack of originality in thought, that because I opposed the labelling of system we live under as a true democracy, you immediately started throwing the word communist around. I'm not saying I'm completely guiltless of lack of originality in thought, I'm the first to admit a lot of the things coming out of my mouth are left wing cliches/rhetoric.

Saying that, I'm going to leave you with another quote by a man named Noam Chomsky. As a disclaimer I will offer the warning that not reading it may result in you not understanding why I posted it.

"The real prospects for aesthetic democracy depend on something else. They depend on how the people here in the rich and priviledged societies learn some other lessons. For example the lessons being taught by the Mayans in Chiapas, Mexico. Where they're among the most impoverished and oppressed sectors in the continent, but unlike us they retain a vibrant sense of liberty and democracy, traditionally allowed to slip out of our hands - has been stolen from us. And unless people in the rich here, and in other rich and priviledged societies, unless they can recapture and revitalise that tradition, the prospects for democracy are indeed grim."

 

[Void]

Democracy is about freedom of speech, and originally it was created in a state of anarchy when the oppressors were thrown out, though in its modern state its more about slogans and bumper stickers. The main problem is that if you dont have practical democratic functions that work, then it is nothing more then a slogan used by institutions that are anything but democratic. Personally I think GREENS are best suited towards liberty in a capitalist world.

 

[Charlie Brown]

Under Liberal Party
*Best economy since War World Two
*Promise to keep interest Rates low (1% movement in interest rates offsets any tax reduction given)
*Continued Alliance with US cos in best interest of our nation, will do what it takes to fight terrorism
*Dedication to youth unemployment by building technical colleges, granting scholarships
*Matching labour on Medicare reforms
*Tax relief for small business owners

Under Labour Rule
*Worst economy in years
*Soaring interest rates when last in power (will i give them another chance to stuff it up) no way

John Howard comes across as a man that can actually run a nation he is articulate, he has years of experience and as he said...the labour government has not only been a negative force but negative in opposition. He has run his own campaign and not been worried about Mark Lathams campaign.
Latham on the other hand still comes across as a risk taker...all talk no action. Whats with that add about Costello 1 year, Howard 2 years...just a blatant attack on character without any real case on why Costello is bad for the nation...
Ive considered all sides carefully and Liberals definately again...

 

[lostpunk5545]

^ It's all about justification.

Under Liberal:

* Worst human rights situation in a long time.
* Ivy league schools.
* Reduction in medicare.
* But a great economy (which was procured by selling off a national asset - Telstra anyways) means Howard can waste lots of money on training unused anti-terrorist squads, sending troops around the world and buying weapons. Meanwhile my road is falling apart and I'm sick and can't afford to pay for it and my future kids will have to go to a shitty university if it can be afforded at all.

Under Labour:

* Medicare was introduced (thanks Gough).
* University was actually free for a period of time.
* Unions flourished and so did our rights as workers.

 

[doofqueen]

meh!
all this bitchin and moaning about how fucked up australia is and yet, do we realise we are living in the best country in the world?

That doesn't mean that it can't be better.