Permanent effects of antagonism. Anti-Psychotic 'medication'.

[The God]

Hello. I'm new to this part of the forum, so if I post this in the wrong section, my excuses.

I'm worried.

I'll start off by saying I've been on risperidone for 2 years. I've also been on seroquel, zyprexa, lithium.

From what I understood is that receptor density can increase during the "treatment". (I prefer the term chemical lobotomy) It has been said that anti-psychotics can cause hallucinations and delusions in previously "healthy" patients, when discontinuing treatment. I've experienced this myself when my doc switched me from zyprexa to risperidone.

Anyways, as I call it chemical lobotomy, this might be unrespectful. I know there are people whos lives have improved by taking anti-psychotics, but this doesn't apply to everyone who is labeled as mentally ill. But this is another discussion.

So here's my question: I felt as if my mind was numbed. Emotions are blunted, there's a constant mental fog, you are tired and in a sense depressed, IQ and EQ seem to be lowered. (This is what I experience(d))

Are any of these effects permanent?

I mean, there are studies that show that AP's cause brain shrinkage. Risperidone is known for its permanent or rather irreversable blockage of the 5-HT7 receptor. As any other anti-psychotic there's a risk of tardive dyskinesia. I believe there's no such thing as either having TD or not having it. It's not like an on/off switch, right? So in a sense there's always brain damage to some extent? Do these medications "rewire" or "fry" your brain?

Since quitting these medications, I'm having trouble understanding who I really am, or who I was before any AP. I really feel as if I'll never be the same as before, and it's really a depressing thought. I was a rather emotional, sensitive person, but in a good way. I was passionate, had lot's of interests, a girlfriend, a high sex drive and a firm body. It seems as if I lost these things, even though I'm not on any AP atm. Do these things ever FULLY return? I feel mentally raped by the psychopharmaca I was forced to take. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is going or went through this.

Please share your honest opinion on this subject, I'm really looking for answers. Most Google searches on this subject lead me to an anti-psychiatry site, which isn't the kind of objective information I'm looking for.

Thanks.

 

[sekio]

They shouldn't be, antipsychotics produce their mind-numbing effects by blockade of the major neurotransmitters, when therapy is discontinued the emotional blunting quite often dissipates (c.f. people who need antipsychotics, and stop taking them, quite often fall into remission)

 

[sean107]

I am currently 1 month off of a life long prescription of various anti-psychotics and my lasting effects have been aching bones in the mornings and dry itchy skin. I also get sleep paralysis before I fall asleep and see shadow people every night but I've gotten used to it and all of these effects have been decreasing since I've came off of them.

 

[lolwhatzdrugs]

I am currently 1 month off of a life long prescription of various anti-psychotics and my lasting effects have been aching bones in the mornings and dry itchy skin. I also get sleep paralysis before I fall asleep and see shadow people every night but I've gotten used to it and all of these effects have been decreasing since I've came off of them.

And did they improve your quality of life at the time at all?

Good luck feeling better.

 

[The God]

I am getting better.

But I've read about risperidone causing permanent side-effects apart from tardive dyskinesia. Side-effects such as lowered IQ, emotional blunting, Fatigue, lowered libido, raised prolactin, mental fog, etc. EVEN when discontinuing treatment.

It could be the symptoms of an illness that return I assume.. Though it seems very unlikely in my case.

 

[The God]

As for the lowered libido/testosteron i found this:

"In a subchronic study in Beagle dogs in which oral risperidone was administered at doses of 0.31 to 5 mg/kg, sperm motility and concentration were decreased at doses 0.6 to 10 times the oral MRHD on a mg/m² basis. Dose-related decreases were also noted in serum testosterone at the same doses. Serum testosterone and sperm values partially recovered, but remained decreased after treatment was discontinued. No no-effect doses were noted in either rat or dog."

Source: http://www.rxlist.com/risperdal-consta-drug/warnings-precautions.htm


This really worries me. And even if I get my test levels checked, they'll tell me they're within 'normal' range. What is normal?

Bare in mind my family (the males) all have a great physique and high sex drive, High levels of testosterone. So did I, before I got 'treated'. It sickens me. I'm 21 btw, dont have much intrest in sex anymore. My father who is 57 has more intrest in sex, even when abusing alcohol.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

The extrapyramidal side effects of antipsychotics -- the Parkinson's and/or Huntington's-like motor problems -- can be permanent in some people. But the lack of joy and motivation are not controlled by the same dopamine pathways, and these do tend to recover after a time when antipsychotics are stopped. I think you may find you eat your words after a few months off the APs -- I've seen people actually get their libidos back with a vengeance after being off them.

 

[MagickalKat777]

In the case of risperidone though, it has only been FDA approved since 1994. That isn't a long enough time to come to a conclusion about its long term effects.

I personally know someone who was on olanzapine for two years and is still in PAWS from it almost two years later.

Nobody really knows what the consequences of the newer atypicals really are.

 

[lolwhatzdrugs]

In the case of risperidone though, it has only been FDA approved since 1994. That isn't a long enough time to come to a conclusion about its long term effects.

I personally know someone who was on olanzapine for two years and is still in PAWS from it almost two years later.

Nobody really knows what the consequences of the newer atypicals really are.

What is PAWs consist of from a typical or atypical?

 

[Rogozjin]

I am getting better.

But I've read about risperidone causing permanent side-effects apart from tardive dyskinesia. Side-effects such as lowered IQ, emotional blunting, Fatigue, lowered libido, raised prolactin, mental fog, etc. EVEN when discontinuing treatment.

It could be the symptoms of an illness that return I assume.. Though it seems very unlikely in my case.

I have all of the above and to severe degrees, one year after stopping treatment.

I'm "foggy" to the point where I can't feel ANY reward from anything.

It is absolute hell and torture.

Libido wise it's not even possible to relate in human language. Anything related to 'sex' is just gone, mentally and bodily.

If you say "I'm feeling better" then you probably didn't take as much damage as I did. At no point during 1+ year off meds have I felt that way.

If anything I feel worse now than 1 year ago, but not by much. Neuroleptics fried my brain.

Sorry to hear you took damage in a way similar to me, but also good that you seem to recover. Can just say I've not recovered one bit for 1+ year.

Hope you continue to recover. I know what that fog is like, I live in a constant an absolute fog and it's worse than death, honestly.

 

[lolwhatzdrugs]

I have all of the above and to severe degrees, one year after stopping treatment.

I'm "foggy" to the point where I can't feel ANY reward from anything.

It is absolute hell and torture.

Libido wise it's not even possible to relate in human language. Anything related to 'sex' is just gone, mentally and bodily.

If you say "I'm feeling better" then you probably didn't take as much damage as I did. At no point during 1+ year off meds have I felt that way.

If anything I feel worse now than 1 year ago, but not by much. Neuroleptics fried my brain.

Sorry to hear you took damage in a way similar to me, but also good that you seem to recover. Can just say I've not recovered one bit for 1+ year.

Hope you continue to recover. I know what that fog is like, I live in a constant an absolute fog and it's worse than death, honestly.

How are you worse than when you ceased the meds?

 

[MagickalKat777]

What is PAWs consist of from a typical or atypical?

No experience with typicals. They're hardly used anymore unless they have to be but it doesn't surprise me that olanzapine can trigger PAWS that is not unlike benzodiazepine-induced PAWS. It has affinity to GABA, even if it is quite low, being a thienobenzodiazepine.

I'm just pointing out that there is no way to really tell what the long term effects of these drugs will be because its all a guess until the guinea pigs, I mean "patients", start aging.

I can tell you that two weeks of ziprasidone left me fucked up for 2 months. Unable to feel pleasure, living like a zombie, completely apathetic, totally lethargic, with significant cognitive impairments as well.

 

[sekio]

It has affinity to GABA, even if it is quite low, being a thienobenzodiazepine.

No, it doesn't. Not all thienobenzodiazepines (hell, not all regular benzodiazepines) bind to GABA.

 

[The God]

Well I am getting better to some degree, but ofcourse I'm taking several nootropics and herbs in combination with wellbutrin. I'm sure they help.

A list of what I'm taking:

- Horny Goat Weed extract (750mg) + Maca root (150mg). 1/day
This helps with the libido issues and it has been said to raise testosterone. Just read some studies.

- A multi-vitamin. 1/day (with added ginseng and coq10)
Can't be bad i guess. B6 and B12 are good for a more positive mood I think.

- Vitamin D3 (50.000 IU). 1/week
Also helps with depression and immune system. Some studies show a correlation between D3 defficiency and Schizo-like symptoms.

- Ginseng extract (90mg) 1/day
General vitality, works purifying, good for memory and cognitive abilities.

- 5-HTP (200mg) With added Glycine, Taurine and Inositol. 1/day 2 hours before sleep.
Supports a positive mood, helps with sleep, reduces anxiety, etc
This is a high dose though, beware of serotonin syndrome.

- Wellbutrin XR (300mg) 1/day
When I first started taking this, still beeing on risperidone, I had an enormous libido boost, which wore of after time. It also helps with concentration (I have ADD), alertness and memory to some extent.
I can say it helps you enjoy things more too, such as music and socializing.


I feel like adding piracetam + choline to the "stack" but I'm a bit sceptical.

Please do note that all effects can vary from person to person.

hope this helps.

 

[MagickalKat777]

No, it doesn't. Not all thienobenzodiazepines (hell, not all regular benzodiazepines) bind to GABA.

Its not high but it does. High doses almost certainly do.

The affinities of olanzapine, clozapine, haloperidol, and four potential antipsychotics were compared on binding to the neuronal receptors of a number of neurotransmitters. In both rat tissues and cell lines transfected with human receptors olanzapine had high affinity for dopamine D1, D2, D4, serotonin (5HT)2A, 5HT2c, 5HT3, a2-adrenergic, histamine h1, and five muscarinic receptor subtypes. Olanzapine had lower affinity for a1-adrenergic receptors and relatively low affinity for 5HT1 subtypes, GABAA, β-adrenergic receptors, and benzodiazepine binding sites. The receptor binding affinities for olanzapine was quite similar in tissues from rat and human brain. The binding profile of olanzapine was comparable to the atypical antipsychotic clozapine, while the binding profiles for haloperidol, resperidone, remoxipride, Org 5222, and seroquel were substantially different from that of clozapine. The receptor binding profile of olanzapine is consistent with the antidopaminergic, antiserotonergic, and antimuscarinic activity observed in animal models and predicts atypical antipsychotic activity in man.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0893133X9400129N

The density of GABAA receptors in the hippocampus and the temporal cortex from rats treated for 28 days with either haloperidol, chlorpromazine, clozapine or olanzapine was measured. Compared to haloperidol (0.01 and 0.1 mg kg−1 day−1) and chlorpromazine (0.1 and 1 mg kg−1 day−1), clozapine and olanzapine (0.1 and 1 mg kg−1 day−1) markedly decreased the density of GABAA receptors in these two brain regions. These data suggest that modulation of GABAergic transmission could be an important action of some antipsychotic drugs.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014299998002854

I did a lot of research on this one back in the day because they wanted to put me on it for panic attacks. Unless I'm misinterpreting something?

 

[sekio]

There you have it, from the very paper you cited. Read the footnote. Not even 50% binding at 10 micromolar. (= 10 000 nM, much higher than a typical dose)
And - decreased GABA receptor density does not mean there's GABA antagonism.