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SIED Moderators: Genetic Freak | Serotonin101
Peptides (CJC, MGF, Frag-HGH, etc)
- Thread starter p-mo
- Start date
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
ah, I was under the impression most of the anabolic effects came from IGF while the lipolytic effects came from GH itself. I didn't experience much fat loss from IGF alone but a good bit from CJC.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
honestly, you want testosterone then. I think looking to IGF for anabolic effects is going to be OK if you're not expecting a lot/are rich, but its going to do very little in comparison to a proper steroid cycle.
Although I hear combining them with steroids is VERY effective.
Although I hear combining them with steroids is VERY effective.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
yeah your supplements will be chicken breast, ground beef, yogurt, cheese, eggs...it works well actually. Letting your body do the natural thing is very wise for as long as you are reaping natural gains (it strikes me as reasonable to go natural until you cannot possibly do so and still gain at least imo). Why ruin the androgen receptors in your body by starting to cycle too soon?
From what I recall Pyrostigmine is a suicidal, irreversible inhibitor of acetylcholineesterase, whereas galantamine and huperzine are just temporary inhibitors. Not that its a huge deal, they will all accomplish the same end goal.
P-mo, its not somatropin your trying to suppress by using the ACEI's, its somatostatin. Somatostatin is the pituitaries brake mechanism for GH release. This is why GH release occurs in pulses rather than a sustained release. The GH gets released, then somatostatin levels rise in response, which decreases/cessates GH release. This mechanism is likely utilized by the body to ensure sufficient binding proteins are available when the GH surges occur.
Binding proteins are not NECESSARY, but are the bodies way of controlling the utilization of circulating serum GH and IGF-1, as well as other hormones. With lower BP levels, you will likely get a less tissue selective effect which can mean greater organ enlargement and other unwanted growth of tissues that are not the desired targets.
CJC-1295 should be combined with an acetylcholineesterase inhibitor if you want to get the most bang for your buck. It will blunt the somatostatin response which will allow the CJC to stimulate more GH release in a given period of time.
Use pubmed to find studies regarding the use of pyrostigmine to increase growth hormone levels by suppressing somatostatin. Im too lazy to go re-find them, but theyre there.
As to combining CJC-1295 with GHRP? Makes no sense to me. Why would you want to combine two growth hormone secretagogues? They both work through the same pathway, the GHSR (Growth Hormone Secretagogue Receptor), and CJC-1295 is a stronger GHSR agonist than is GHRP-6.
It doesnt make any sense other than to waste your cash. If you want a stronger effect, then increase your CJC-1295 dosage, dont add a less potent GH secretagogue that works through the same receptor as the one your already taking.
Now combining an ACEI with the CJC makes far more sense, and is alot cheaper.
As to the cost fo the ACEI's to the person who posted about that. Huperzine A is what I recommend. Buy it from Chinese suppliers, NOT from american resellers who knock up the price ten-fold.
Ive purchased Huperzia Serrata extract standardized to 98%+ Huperzine-A content for less than $750/gram when buying just 1 gram of the raw powder, from a Chinese extract provider. Since its a chinese herb thats long been used in ancient chinese herbal medicine, its grown throughout China and is EASILY available in 1 gram quantities and even less if you shop around.
At 100mcg per day, 1 gram will last you 10,000 days, and at under $750/gram, comes to a cost of below 7 CENTS a dose.
7 cents a dose is expensive? Thats 7 cents a day to use. Doesnt get much cheaper than that. Now you can see how much those resellers markup the product if your finding it at $2-3 a day to use, theyre marking it up by like 50-fold in cost.
Combining CJC-1295 with anabolic steroids and/or insulin, will further enhance the mass building effects. Combining it with lipolytics like clen or T3, will further enhance the lipolytic effects.
P-mo, its not somatropin your trying to suppress by using the ACEI's, its somatostatin. Somatostatin is the pituitaries brake mechanism for GH release. This is why GH release occurs in pulses rather than a sustained release. The GH gets released, then somatostatin levels rise in response, which decreases/cessates GH release. This mechanism is likely utilized by the body to ensure sufficient binding proteins are available when the GH surges occur.
Binding proteins are not NECESSARY, but are the bodies way of controlling the utilization of circulating serum GH and IGF-1, as well as other hormones. With lower BP levels, you will likely get a less tissue selective effect which can mean greater organ enlargement and other unwanted growth of tissues that are not the desired targets.
CJC-1295 should be combined with an acetylcholineesterase inhibitor if you want to get the most bang for your buck. It will blunt the somatostatin response which will allow the CJC to stimulate more GH release in a given period of time.
Use pubmed to find studies regarding the use of pyrostigmine to increase growth hormone levels by suppressing somatostatin. Im too lazy to go re-find them, but theyre there.
As to combining CJC-1295 with GHRP? Makes no sense to me. Why would you want to combine two growth hormone secretagogues? They both work through the same pathway, the GHSR (Growth Hormone Secretagogue Receptor), and CJC-1295 is a stronger GHSR agonist than is GHRP-6.
It doesnt make any sense other than to waste your cash. If you want a stronger effect, then increase your CJC-1295 dosage, dont add a less potent GH secretagogue that works through the same receptor as the one your already taking.
Now combining an ACEI with the CJC makes far more sense, and is alot cheaper.
As to the cost fo the ACEI's to the person who posted about that. Huperzine A is what I recommend. Buy it from Chinese suppliers, NOT from american resellers who knock up the price ten-fold.
Ive purchased Huperzia Serrata extract standardized to 98%+ Huperzine-A content for less than $750/gram when buying just 1 gram of the raw powder, from a Chinese extract provider. Since its a chinese herb thats long been used in ancient chinese herbal medicine, its grown throughout China and is EASILY available in 1 gram quantities and even less if you shop around.
At 100mcg per day, 1 gram will last you 10,000 days, and at under $750/gram, comes to a cost of below 7 CENTS a dose.
7 cents a dose is expensive? Thats 7 cents a day to use. Doesnt get much cheaper than that. Now you can see how much those resellers markup the product if your finding it at $2-3 a day to use, theyre marking it up by like 50-fold in cost.
Combining CJC-1295 with anabolic steroids and/or insulin, will further enhance the mass building effects. Combining it with lipolytics like clen or T3, will further enhance the lipolytic effects.
metaomega said:
I tried to explain this before, but I will go ahead and let the study speak for itself. It makes perfect sense to me why you would want to add the GHRP to CJC...read on
Why you need both GHRH analog (CJC-1295) and GHRP-6
GHS Down Regulation
A single dose of a GHS in vivo brings about an immediate down-regulation of responsiveness to subsequent administration. This desensitization appears to abate and sensitivity fully restored within a few hours.
However continual infusion of large amounts of GHS brings about a substantial initial release of GH, followed, after several hours, by long-term down-regulation of GH secretion.
The only published comparison of the results of differing modes of GHS delivery (twice daily injections vs. continuous infusion) in vivo demonstrated a dramatic dissipation of anabolism following infusions of high-dose GHS. However a pronounced anabolic effect was maintained with the same dose of GHS administered by intermittent injection.
From the results of this study graphed out above it is evident that with GHSs the optimal dosing pattern is administration by injection with sufficient intervals between dosing so as to maintain sensitivity.
The effectiveness is greatly diminished, perhaps to the point of having no benefit if GHSs duration of action becomes prolonged and sustained. GHSs unlike GHRH are best used to amplify those very import GH pulses while GHRH is effective at raising the total level of GH.
If we understand desensitization than we will easily understand why the oral GHS, MK-0677 in recent studies failed to demonstrate a "maintained acceleration of statural growth in children with GH-deficiency". MK-0677 was developed to be a long lasting orally active analogue of GHRP-6. MK-0677 is to GHRP-6 what CJC-1295 is to GHRH (i.e. long-lasting).
The problem is that while long-lasting analogues of GHRH do not result in desensitization and pronounced down-regulation, long-lasting analogues of GHRP-6 do desensitize and consequently lose effectiveness.
CJC-1295 brings about persistent and chronically elevated levels of GH while GHRP-6 if injected a couple of times a day amplifies the very important GH pulses. The two compounds greatly compliment each other. In the previous article on GHRH & CJC-1295 we discussed the importance of pulsation which has been shown to be necessary for growth. The other important component of anabolism is chronic GH elevation.
Continuously elevated levels of GH increase IGF-I levels more than intermittent increases in GH. The intermittent nature of GH release brought on by GHSs' mode of action does create a rise in IGF-I levels but the anabolic effect may not be pronounced.
It has been repeatedly demonstrated and is now recognized that in children the growth response to injections of IGF-I is far less than the growth response to injections of GH. This is in accordance with most animal studies, which demonstrate that treatment with IGF-I does "not produce the full anabolic and growth-promoting effects of GH treatment".
Protocols that elevate GH while maintaining and amplifying the pulses seem to be effective at producing anabolism. The combination of CJC-1295 and GHRP-6 do just that.
GHRH (and analogs) + GHSs = a lot of synergistic growth hormone release
There is not a lot of deviation in the published studies on the effect of these peptides and the saturation dose needed to bring about the effect in normal people (who often act as a control group).
We need only to examine the results of the normal test subjects from three oft-cited studies that established the relevant protocol.
In the first study "Inhibition of growth hormone release after the combined administration of GHRH and GHRP-6 in patients with Cushing's syndrome", Alfonso Leal-Cerro..., Clinical Endocrinology 1994, 41 (5) , 649–654, three different peptide/peptide combinations were used.
GHRH was administered alone at 100mcg. This resulted in area under the curve (AUC) measured for 120 minutes of GH secretion of 1420 ± 330.
GHRP-6 was administered alone at 100mcg. This resulted in area under the curve (AUC) measured for 120 minutes of GH secretion of 2278 ± 290.
GHRH plus GHRP-6 was administered together at 100mcg each. This resulted in area under the curve (AUC) measured for 120 minutes of GH secretion of 7332 ± 592.
As a single dose these results show that GHRP-6 is about twice as effective as GHRH.
The synergy between GHRH & GHRP-6 is clearly evident as co-administration resulted in twice the benefit of the additive values of single doses of the two peptides.
The second study is the one that established the saturation dose for these peptides often used in other studies. "Growth hormone (GH)-releasing peptide stimulates GH release in normal men and acts synergistically with GH-releasing hormone ", CY Bowers..., J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Apr 1990; 70: 975-982.
In that study GHRH at a dose of 1.0 microgram/kg was administered alone and then together with various doses of GHRP-6 (0.1, 0.3, and 1.0 microgram/kg). They found that the submaximal dosages of 0.1 and 0.3 microgram/kg GHRP-6 plus 1 microgram/kg GHRH did have the effect of stimulating GH release synergistically.
However the larger dose of 1 mcg/kg of GHRP-6 was found to be the saturation dose when used in combination w/ 1 mcg/kg of GHRH.
It is also noteworthy that serum prolactin and cortisol levels rose about 2-fold above base levels only at the 1 microgram/kg dose of GHRP-6 and not at the submaximal dosages.
The final study, "Preserved Growth Hormone (GH) Secretion in Aged and Very Old Subjects after Testing with the Combined Stimulus GH-Releasing Hormone plus GH-Releasing Hexapeptide-6", Micic D..., J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1998 Jul;83(7):2569-72 is fascinating for several reasons.
By reference to citation it is noted that "GHRH plus GHRP-6 (both at saturating dose) is nowadays considered the most potent stimulus of GH secretion in man being able to restore the GH secretion in states associated with chronic blockade of somatotroph activity (as in obesity)...it elicits a near-normal GH discharge in obesity, in patients with hypothyroidism and in patients with type 2 diabetes mellitus."
This particular study examined the effects of combined administration of GHRH, immediately followed by GHRP-6 in a group of very old subjects (age higher than 75 yr), as compared with both normal adults (less than 40 yr) and aged subjects (age 46–65 yr). The dosing levels used were 90mcg of GHRH followed by 1mcg/kg of GHRP-6.
All the subjects had a positive GH secretory response to the combined administration with no differences observed between men and women. However the group comprising the very old had the highest level of GH release followed by the group comprising the aged subjects with the "less than 40 yr group" experiencing a substantial rise but not as high as the other two groups.
The study concluded that the lack of side-effects & safety of the protocol and the discovered lack of age-related decline in the "GHRH-GHRP-6-mediated GH release opens the possibility of using it as a therapeutical tool to revert some deleterious manifestations of aging in man."
In CONCLUSION, Growth Hormone (GH) is regulated by a trinity composed of Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone (GHRH), Growth Hormone Secretagogues (GHS) and Somatostatin. GHRH and GHSs individually have a positive impact on GH secretion. These two compounds operate through distinct modes of action which complement each other and when administered together result in synergistic GH secretion.
Growth Hormone Releasing Peptides (GHRPs), a subclass of GHSs are effective across all age groups in amplifying GH pulses. Pulsation is a necessary component of growth generation in mammals. GHRH when co-administered with GHRPs has the effect of further increasing the amplitude and "area under the curve" of a GH pulse. The result is a GH pulse many multiples more effective then that achieved by an unaided GH pulse.
In addition to pulsation, overall growth is better accomplished when total levels of GH are elevated without hindering pulsation. Elevated GH levels appear to be a necessary component of growth generation as well. One of the reasons this is so appears to be that chronically elevated GH levels result in more pronounced sustained levels of IGF-1 then that achieved through intermittent GH elevations.
Persistent levels of GHRH do not result in desensitization. Elevated levels of GHRH result in sustained GH release. A long-lasting version of GHRH, CJC-1295 has demonstrated the ability to sustain elevated GH levels in humans.
GHRP-6 is perhaps the most well studied of all GHSs. In physiological doses there are virtually no side effects. It has been demonstrated to be effective for all age groups.
Combined administration of CJC-1295 and GHRP-6 is a very effective, well studied method of increasing the total amount of GH secreted within the body. By adjusting the dosing of these compounds and accounting for such factors as age one may choose to achieve a "youthful" restoration, an above normal elevation or a substantially above normal elevation of both GH levels and pulsatile release.
This study is credited to Dat, aka DatBtrue.
p-mo said:Yo Vic!
hows your cycle progressing?
All is going well! The EQ and GHRP/CJC combo gives me a huge appetite!
I'm not sure if I'm retaining a little less water from the dbol because of the GHRP/CJC, can't really tell. All else is goin good!! %)
What week are you on? You running any tren?
ya 50mg of dbol is pretty high so I'd imagine bloat might be an issue...
The cjc and EQ appitite sounds appealing - especially as your looking to add so much mass in this single cycle... (as well as lose some fat- crazy!
)
ya 50mg of dbol is pretty high so I'd imagine bloat might be an issue...
The cjc and EQ appitite sounds appealing - especially as your looking to add so much mass in this single cycle... (as well as lose some fat- crazy!
)p-mo said:What week are you on? You running any tren?
ya 50mg of dbol is pretty high so I'd imagine bloat might be an issue...
The cjc and EQ appitite sounds appealing - especially as your looking to add so much mass in this single cycle... (as well as lose some fat- crazy!
Yep, I'm running a little bit of tren ace, 100mg eod right now. Starting week 10, it will be 75mg ed. Stuff really helps me get past those painful prop shots.
I never use more than 50mg dbol ed, too much water/bloat and fucks up your liver. Goes away about a week after I stop.
Goal is 20lbs. I hope to reach it, and that reminds me...I should go eat some more. lol
aanallein
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2006
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- 6,205
That's 3900 mg of aas per week + anti e's and growth boosters... isn't that overdoing it? i can see a pro level body builder doing something like this but you're talking about putting on 20lbs of "permanent muscle" with that heavy of a cycle.. its just not adding up for me. if you have to do that much aas to put the mass on.. how do you intend to keep it on after the cycle? your natural test and growth production can't support the same level of mass as 4 grams of aas per week can.
aanallein said:
In my case, I'm not overdoing it. I am not a pro by any means, but I do my best to keep in the best shape that I can. I run 2 bulk cycles a year and have been using AAS for about 10 years now, on and off.
Those who I know that do compete make my cycle look like an aspirin. Some hit 3 grams of test alone ew. I believe I've maxed my genetic potential to add more LEAN mass. So this time around, I'm taking the growth factor route and want to get all that I can from it in conjunction with AAS.
I wont see the permanent muscle for at least 6 months. I'm now lucky if I can keep 5-7 lean pounds after a bulk cycle. I'm just shy of 250 and 6ft. When I was younger I saw 15, 20, 25..lb. gains. Not anymore, unless I sit on my ass and retain water.
I have my PCT down to a science so I keep most of my gains, maybe 90%.. %)
kendo33
Greenlighter
Can anyone pass a message to fukhead14 that yes I'm still in wichita, apparently I don't have the appropriate priveledges to send private messages... it sounded important... thanks, K
UberNoober
Greenlighter
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- Feb 4, 2009
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I am not a body builder or anything, but i'm interested in raising GH. I am 26 years old and on a budget. What would be a good dose schedule of CJC and Ghrp-6 for general health? Ghrp-6 is pretty cheap, where as CJC is kind of on the expensive side. Would it be worth it just to run ghrp-6 stand alone? I understand that they must be run long term, but what is considered long term?
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
go get tested for GH. Likely you are not under average. No reason to go above average for you probably.
You can change your insulin resistance (lower it) and notice way more positive benefits than exo-supplementation with GH would give you.
You can change your insulin resistance (lower it) and notice way more positive benefits than exo-supplementation with GH would give you.
UberNoober
Greenlighter
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2009
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Thank you for the quick reply. If you don't mind could you pm me with more information on lowering insulin resistance and the best route to go about it. In the mean time i'll be doing more research on insulin resistance etc.