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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

Pentagon to Allow Transgender Individuals to Enlist Despite Trump Objections

The DSM also says depression is a mental disorder. But that doesn't mean if you're depressed that the reasons you feel depressed aren't valid and don't exist.

My point is, all the DSM says is that some people suffer because they think they're the wrong gender/sex/whateveridontcare. The fact that it says that though does not mean that those feelings are delusional anymore than it says the things you feel depressed about are delusional.

Being a delusion or not is a question of why they feel that way and on that question the DSM is silent because frankly, I don't think we really know for sure. It's a question about the brain, which we still know little about.

Ignorance is not proof that there is nothing to know about.
And I think people should mind their own fucking business. Yeah yeah, you don't want money to be wasted blah blah that's a pack of bullshit and lies. Maybe you don't know it's bullshit lies but it is. Anyone can see the difference between true concern over cost and using cost as an excuse. When it's an excuse they constantly keep talking about the transgender subject rather than the money subject. They ignore other wastes of money.

Most of all though, if it really were about money, you'd be open to the possibility that it's not a waste of money, that or you must not want any money spent on the military at all. If it's obvious you already have an opinion about transgender ism or whatever other subject and keep arguing your position, then the truth is you don't care if it's a waste of money or not. If you did you'd wouldn't care to get so involved in that part of it. You'd want to know if it's a waste of money or not, not immediately decide if is then look for any reason to prove it. You don't do that for other potential wastes of money.

Cause the waste of money is a pretext. You might believe it yourself even but it's just that you haven't even realized yourself the truth. You don't like people like that and want to make life harder for them and this is one way to do it. Which is why your concern about money is so selective. And why with other things you might be interested in if it's a worthwhile use of money.

It's dishonest bullshit.
I actually do care about the money. Which is why I'm not interested in getting worked up into a frenzy over insignificant amounts that likely cost more to fix than to ignore.

This isn't a big enough problem to justify caring about it over the money. There's no plausible reason to think it will be. But since the real truth is some people just hate the people and use the money as an excuse, in their mind they will always find reasons to justify trying to stop it and prove its worth stopping. Because it's about their emotional dislike, not money.
 
jess said:
It's dishonest bullshit.
I actually do care about the money. Which is why I'm not interested in getting worked up into a frenzy over insignificant amounts that likely cost more to fix than to ignore
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Totally agreed. Top post.
It's frustrating when people use such contrived and disingenuous arguments to state their case.

This is a complex matter which trump has exploited to appeal to his 'loyal supporters', doing a disservice to the military and transgender people in the process.
It's a good example of how crass demagogues debase political discourse.
 
oestrogenprinsessa said:
you're an idiot.

do you always write with that many negations or are you just confused?

seriously what is this mess lmfao




"I do care about the money! I am not interested in getting dragged down in fighting about whether or not the treatments that the money is being spent on are efficacious or not!
Also, some people use money to disguise their hatreds lul"

"look at me I can only think in binary frameworks" V



l m a o
nice on dropping the mentally ill part shithead
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If you'd asked nicely I'd have explained. As it stands, I think it's funnier if I just say nothing.
.
 
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I've unapproved the last bunch of posts.

oestrogenprinsessa, PLEASE, stop being so aggressive. If you find the topic difficult to talk about or whatever, just don't participate.
 
cduggles said:
Welcome back oestrogenprincessa!

Great to see you here! :)

I hope you saw my little message.

And it's not a mental disorder...

Not for people who look at references like the ICD and DSM as a guide for mental health

The DSM only has one code for gender dysphoria, not all transgender individuals are diagnosed with it. It usually used because you need a diagnosis for a procedure.

And it isn't elective surgery...
Many insurance companies and Medicaid and possibly Medicare... don't quote me on Medicare but I think so... are also covering gender reassignment surgery

I never thought I'd look at the military as so progressive!
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JahSEEuS said:
Many insurance companies require that you have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria before covering any gender reassignment surgeries.

The DSM V lists gender dysphoria as a mental disorder. Am I wrong there?

Gender nonconformity is not a mental disorder. Gender dysphoria is. How can you say that someone that is trans is not experiencing a conflict between their physical or assigned gender and the gender with which he/she/they identify.
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Jah, you are correct that the DSM does include gender dysphoria. See my post that you quoted above, bolded.

An important distinction in DSM V is that gender dysphoria isn't categorized as a sexual disorder and exists as unique.

In the last paragraph quoted above, these are separate concepts (gender nonconformity, gender dysphoria, and being transgender.)

To take your last, "How can you say that someone that is trans is not experiencing a conflict between their physical or assigned gender and the gender with which he/she/they identify."

I'm interpreting this as "aren't all transgender individuals gender dysphoric?" (You could mean "don't all transgender individuals want hormone therapy or gender reassignment surgery"? The answer is no, many don't.)

Gender dysphoria (let's pretend it's a comprehensive and accurate definition, which it's not) is a term that is useful in two ways:
1. it provides a billing code and coverage for specific medical costs,
2. it defines a psychiatric condition that is characterized as a desire to "be" the gender that doesn't correspond with primary/secondary sexual characteristics and distress around the mismatch.
In the psychiatric world, 'distress' is a very strong term.

The central problem is that you are taking the word 'conflict' (e.g., I want to live as those of the opposite gender do) and maybe? assuming that means 'distress' (e.g., I want to commit suicide because I was born the wrong biological sex)

Those are two very different things.

American Psychiatric Association on Gender Dysphoria
In adolescents and adults gender dysphoria diagnosis involves a difference between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, and significant distress or problems functioning.
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So if I read your question correctly, which might be way off, you are equating a transgender individual with someone who has been diagnosed clinically with gender dysphoria. They aren't the same.

There are transgender individuals who are clinically gender dysphoric, but not everyone and not for the same reasons even if they are.

Much of the distress is related to stigma and societal linkage of sex to gender.

As someone mentioned earlier, at least in the US (which is one of two places I've done relevant research), younger generations seem more comfortable with gender fluidity.

Jah said:
That is the only reason I can see for someone to want to have one of these surgeries.

It isn't elective if you are diagnosed as such. So, it is either a mental condition or an elective surgery.
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There are transgender individuals who want to transition but do not suffer 'distress'.

Hope this is helpful!
 
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^ did you even read the article. that rate is not the suicide rate.

maybe if people just let transgender people be, to enjoy life like the rest of us, the rate would be lower.

alasdair
 
treezy z said:
Transgender suicide rate 32%-50%. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/ The military is not the place for suicidal people (guns, bombs etc), if a population is that suicidal go with logic and don't have them in the military. The military is supposed to be a lethal killing machine, not summer camp for social justice pets.
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That is the "suicide attempt rate" amongst transgender persons in India. Evidently you also didn't read the reasoning suggested for such a high rate of suicide attempts:

Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons.
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Effectively, certain attitudes and not some inherent feature of transsexualism is at play here. Perhaps ideas which suggest transgender people should not serve in the military are an example of such a deleterious attitude?
 
treezy z said:
Transgender suicide rate 32%-50%. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/ The military is not the place for suicidal people (guns, bombs etc), if a population is that suicidal go with logic and don't have them in the military. The military is supposed to be a lethal killing machine, not summer camp for social justice pets.
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That's another excuse reason. There are lots of other groups with high suicide risks but you target this one cause you were looking for a reason anyway.
 
JessFR said:
That's another excuse reason. There are lots of other groups with high suicide risks but you target this one cause you were looking for a reason anyway.
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Please explain how accepting transgenders helps the military (not how the military accepting transgenders helps transgenders.) The military is not a charity, it's not a social club. Ostensibly it's a killing machine.
 
OK. So tell me then. What other groups would you like to see disqualified? People who come from impoverished backgrounds, poverty, etc, they all have higher rates of suicide than the average too.

We could disqualify all them but we might start having problems when our killing machine barely has any enlisted personal left.
 
no comment on the fact that your source was thoroughly debunked? you obviously latched onto those numbers without even bothering to read the article...

there are a million different roles in the military. if transgender people can perform them as well as the next person, why shouldn't the military accept them?

trans-military-madeline.jpg


Madeline Martinez, age 28
Served in the Army at Fort Bliss, El Paso, Texas and Fort Stewart, Hinesville, Georgia

My heart goes out to any of my military brothers and sisters who want to serve their country but now won’t be able to do so. Being transgender isn’t a choice. It is in our core that makes us exist as human beings. President Trump is not only banning Americans who want to serve, he is discriminating against a minority group who have been having to hide their gender issues in the service due to the discrimination and hardships that come along with being openly transgender.

These are individuals who are crucial to their missions and follow the Warrior Ethos: I will always place the mission first, I will never accept defeat, I will never quit, I will never leave a fallen comrade. Yet President Trump is taking these soldiers out of their positions, out of their jobs and out of their mission to serve the American people. He is telling the world that transgender individuals in America do not have the same rights as most of the American public . . . As a President he is to accept all the of the people who fall under the American flag.
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(source: ‘I WILL FOREVER BE AN AMERICAN SOLDIER’)

treezy z, can you explain for us how removing this solider from the military makes america a better/safer/whatever place? or any one of the other 7 military personnel in that piece?

alasdair
 
^ i'd love if you could answer the question.

you asked how accepting transgenders helps the military? well, all 8 of those soldiers serve and benefit the military with their dedication, skills and experience. how does removing them from the military help the military?

from your second link "Nearly 63 percent indicated a history of bullying". if people treated transgender individuals with more respect, i imagine the suicide rate would be lower.

alasdair
 
Like I said, excuse reason.

If it were a real reason you'd be concerned about other groups at risk of mental health problems being allowed to join. But I'd bet you're only interested in the ones you by complete coincidence didn't much care for already while ignoring the rest.

Because it's an excuse reason. You didn't like them already and so this is a justification. Like with the money excuse. If it were a real reason, it would be applied equally.

Someone who actually cared about the suicide risk wouldn't want lots of other groups joining beyond the ones they already disliked. They wouldn't go in a person by person basis for everyone else but suddenly disqualify an entire group when it's a group they already didn't like.
 
alasdairm said:
you asked how accepting transgenders helps the military? well, all 8 of those soldiers serve and benefit the military with their dedication, skills and experience. how does removing them from the military help the military?
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Those 8 are too emotional and feel they are victims. It's not about those 8, it's about transgenders as whole and the fact they are massively suicidal (friendly fire liability, breaking down in combat, etc.)
 
^ you believe they should be removed because they are too emotional? wow. you didn't even know who they were an hour ago and now you're able to psychoanalyse them?

the soldiers in the article have demonstrated that they are all perfectly capable. if trump got his way, all 8 of those dedicated soldiers would not have been allowed to continue service.

we both know why you won't answer the question :\

alasdair
 
you won't answer the question because the answer is that removing those soldiers would be to the detriment of the military and that answer is not in line with your vague, muddled, frankly bigoted position.

alasdair
 
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