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Pedophilia: Inherited, Spiritual, Or Who The Hell Cares?

http://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/...e-the-mind-paedophile/1399644000#.U7NPnx9d48p

Inside the mind of a paedophile

MARTIN MCKENZIE-MURRAY
It’s an act so abhorrent people recoil at its mention. Martin McKenzie-Murray unpicks the stigma, and his own experience, to examine what is actually known about child abusers.

In a way he had always known. But it wasn’t until he was married with kids that Nick realised he was a paedophile. One afternoon, while his wife was out of town, Nick went to the park and watched children play basketball. Those children would never know that they had been watched so intently, would never know that the deviant observation of them would dramatically alter a man’s life.

When Nick returned home he was gripped by paranoia. Years of lithe denial had broken down. Here was his reckoning. “At this point, I finally realised it: I was a paedophile. I’d always known, of course, that I was attracted to boys, but somehow I’d avoided labelling myself. After all, I was married, attracted to women, and had never done anything with a kid. The force of the label was like a nuclear bomb going off inside my head. The word is just so ugly, and I felt evil and dirty.”

The phone rang and it terrified him. Nick was almost convinced that authorities were telepathically sharing his realisation. “I answered it, but there was no one there – it was probably just telemarketers, but it fed my paranoia.”

His wife still away, Nick called his boss and told him he was sick and needed some time off – then he spent long days bedevilled by fear and self-loathing. He didn’t sleep for three nights and thought seriously of killing himself.

On the second or third day, Nick fell to his knees in supplication and prayed furiously to the Lord he had never believed in, asking Him to remove his stain. “I am not a religious man, but after I prayed I felt something that I interpreted to be love and acceptance. Was it really God telling me that I was okay, or was it instead a psychological phenomenon brought on by my distress? My rational mind says the latter, but to this day I can re-create the feeling when I need it.”

Nick is an American and came of age in the 1950s. He is also the co-founder of Virtuous Pedophiles, a US support group for paedophiles who have not acted on their desires and acknowledge that it is wrong to ever do so. What Nick realised, after the atom bomb went off, was that the few paedophile groups in America had formed around its members’ belief that their desires were legitimate. Some, like the infamous North American Man/Boy Love Association, lobby for the abolishment of age of consent laws. Nick’s group is different. It permits membership only to those who denounce child abuse, and actively avoid temptation. His name is not Nick.

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Definitions of deviance

Popularly, “paedophilia” has come to mean adults sexually desiring – and abusing – children. But “paedophilia” refers only to the desire – not its being acted upon. Dr Danny Sullivan is a Melbourne forensic psychiatrist, and an assistant director of the Victorian Institute of Forensic Mental Health. Sullivan specialises in sexual offending and paraphilia – extreme sexual behaviour – and has consulted police and provided expert testimony in the past. Sullivan defined paedophilia for me as “a diagnostic label and descriptor for people who have a deviant sexual arousal to children. ‘Deviant’ is a social definition, and the definition of paedophilia that’s used seeks to avoid the grey area of sexual attraction to teenagers because most non-deviant adults will have some sexual attraction to sexually mature teenagers, who even below the age of consent demonstrate secondary sexual characteristics, such as breasts.”

Sullivan is aware of Virtuous Pedophiles, and commends its defining philosophy, but he has doubts about its effectiveness. “It seems noble in its ideals, but it’s risky if it puts people in touch with another who might then normalise or provoke others in the group to act upon those desires. We see that the internet enables people to contact one another who have unusual sexual interests and through that contact they may result in feeling the behaviour is more normal, and that might encourage someone to move from thought to action.”

Before Nick formed the group, he transferred his faith from God to a therapist. He had done some private research – to this day he has never told a friend or family member about his paedophilia – and found a specialist he thought could help. “I can still remember the fear that he would condemn me the first time we spoke. I must have gone on for 30 minutes without stopping. Then he smiled at me and said, ‘You know, having sexual thoughts about children does not make you a bad person. After all, you didn’t choose to be sexually attracted to children, and you can’t stop. But you can, and have, resisted your sexual feelings. And that makes you a good person, and I admire you for it.’ I can never thank him enough for that.”

Nick was still irradiated, but he had survived the initial blast.

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Scientific black hole

For something we fear so much – it is one of our great moral panics – we know very little about paedophilia. It’s been described as a scientific black hole. For instance, we have no answer to the fundamental question: what makes a paedophile? And the profound stigma of the condition presents serious restrictions to our ability to research it. Sullivan tells me there are no specific biomarkers for paedophilia, or tests that can detect its presence. “The natural history of it changes. There are some who demonstrate a lifelong fixation; it’s their primary sexual focus. There are others who are periodically attracted to children, and then they may not be. It’s probably innate in the way homosexuality is, that they don’t choose their sexual preference. Consequently, some paedophiles will be repulsed and seek to avoid it, and others will give way to it because sexuality is a powerful driver of human behaviour.”

It might seem counterintuitive, but child molesters aren’t necessarily paedophiles either – that is, driven by deviant sexuality. Much abuse is the result of other disturbances playing themselves out – squalid pathologies of domination and aggression, for instance. “The term paedophile is often used erroneously to describe child sexual abusers,” Sullivan says. “There are multiple pathways to offending. For instance, they can rely upon emotional dis-regulation – so people who [offend may] struggle to handle negative emotions like anger, fear, shame, rejection. Another powerful predictor is holding powerful antisocial attitudes. In order to achieve sexual gratification through the abuse of a child, you have to be able to suspend ideas of wrongfulness, you must be able to override concerns for the welfare of the child in order to meet your needs. That normally requires the absence of empathic feelings.”

Something else we don’t know is the percentage of paedophiles that offend – that is, gratify their desire. The reason for this uncertainty is obvious: non-offending paedophiles are unlikely to report themselves for research. As a result, the data is skewed towards those who have gone through the justice system. Nick tells me that “the stigma against paedophiles is so great, even for paedophiles who have never had sexual contact with kids, so we don’t exactly volunteer to be studied. The subjects that are studied have all committed crimes, and I wonder whether they’re representative of the rest of us”.

There are some things we do know. We know that paedophiles are overwhelmingly male, that the desire can fluctuate, and that there can be some effectiveness in anti-libidinal medication, although researchers still hotly contest its efficacy. We know that treatment is better than no treatment, and that for psychological treatment to be beneficial, three things often occur: the patient is motivated to change; the therapist develops a rapport with the paedophile; and sometimes “external inducements or coercion to take treatment”, such as revoking parole, is exercised.

There is no profile of the paedophile. We may think of the lecherous old man lurking in bushes, but, says Sullivan, “It’s important to reflect that paedophiles don’t look dodgy, or act in strange ways.” There are patterns to paedophiles’ manipulations, consistent techniques by which they “groom” the trust of the child and those around them. “We see many more situations where the abuser is known to the person, and are able to offend through a position of trust,” Sullivan tells me. “So a parent, or step-parent. A mentor or sports coach. Or often through friendship or association with the family. They can obtain the confidence of the child, encourage them to keep secrets, try to isolate them from other people, and they may offer bribes.”

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'It happened that I liked my uncle. I thought he was cool.'

I can tell you exactly how I was groomed. I didn’t know it at the time, but in retrospect it’s gruesomely transparent. In researching this story, I realised it was textbook. My uncle’s scheme was polished – diabolically excellent – but now I can look back and locate clearly the various steps of his incestuous seduction. The term “grooming” seems laughably obtuse.

My uncle, who was visiting from England, began by feigning interest in my passions, for which my bedroom walls provided useful intelligence. Oasis and Beastie Boys posters were colourfully plastered alongside action shots of English footballers. Alerted to my passions, he began extolling the genius of Oasis songwriter Noel Gallagher, and telling me how he once met Roy Keane, then captain of Manchester United, in a pub. He provided me with a fascinating analysis of Keane’s temperament.

Here were the first stages of manipulation: he had caught my attention and legitimised my interests. It was fantastic – no family member had ever had an interest or knowledge about my twin passions of sport and music except, perhaps, to cite them as ruinous distractions to my schoolwork. So it happened that I liked my uncle. I thought he was cool.

His next step was to flatter my intelligence and insight, to celebrate me as a misunderstood young man blessed with a rare perspicacity. I enjoyed that, of course, but now I’m left with this hilarious irony: I did not possess the insight to detect what his intention was in complimenting it.

My uncle also conspired to create situations where we were alone together, such as when he asked me to cut his hair at the back of the house – we had a set of hair clippers and I must have mentioned that I occasionally trimmed mates’ hair. Isolation is important to the paedophile – not only does it lessen the chances of detection, it forms a false but flattering sense of conspiracy with the victim. So when he told me we should walk down to the nearby marina – a complex of shops and pubs on the Indian Ocean – I said I’d invite some friends. I was proud of my uncle – I wanted to show him off. He said it wasn’t a good idea; it was better I come alone.

Down at the harbour we browsed a record shop, where he talked knowingly on the latest music – prompted, I suspect, by my own CD collection – and he bought me the latest Beastie Boys album, Hello Nasty. I protested and felt guilty but secretly I was thrilled – I could rarely afford albums myself and I wasn’t used to gifts. My uncle was ticking all the boxes of the groomer’s checklist: gifts, flattery, trust, isolation and the mimicry of my passions. The next item on the list – booze – was coming.

The first, milder incident happened late at night. I had gone to bed after an evening spent with my family – and uncle – at the house of a relative. Memory is a flimsy and corruptible thing, but I remember with startling clarity that night at dinner. The hosts had Foxtel, which was perfect because it was the opening round of the English Premier League. I remember the feature match was Southampton versus Liverpool, that the Saints were playing at home, and that Liverpool wore their new, garishly yellow away strip.

And I remember, later, my uncle creeping into my room. I remember being confused, remember him lying heavy on top of me. I remember the alcohol on his breath, and the abrasiveness of his whiskers on my face. I remember him kissing me – urgently, repeatedly – and I remember thinking, “This can’t be happening again, can it?”

Many years earlier, when I was about 10, an older boy – a teenage neighbour – pulled my pants down on the property of a vacant house. He was insistent, and I was afraid, but he assured me that it was all perfectly normal. I think he told me to never tell anybody, because then we could never be friends again. He demanded that I “play” with him, and that he “play” with me. There is still a part of me that believes it was innocent experimentation on his part, that he was too young to be labelled an abuser. Regardless, the whole episode was nauseatingly bewildering – filthy and unforgiveable in my mind. Afterwards I trembled with shame.

As my uncle lay on top of me, I silently made excuses for him. It seemed so stunningly unlikely that this kind of thing could happen that I gave him the benefit of the doubt. His behaviour seemed bizarre, but perhaps it was legitimate? Still, I squirmed and twisted from him. I tried to do it politely – incredibly, I was terrified of offending him. I laugh about this now. I think I suggested courteously that he go back to bed, and the next day I didn’t tell anyone. That was a mistake.

Days later he asked me down to the harbour again, this time for a drink at the pub. Again, I wanted to invite friends – again, he said it wasn’t a good idea. I was nervous about going because I was under-age – 16 – but he laughed off my anxiety and assured me it would be fine. “People do this all the time in England,” my uncle assured me. Today I know that assurance is a recurring motif of a paedophile’s manipulation.

I got into the pub okay, and he ordered pints. We sat down with them, but not for long. Someone – possibly a neighbour of mine – had alerted the bar manager to my being under-age. We were asked to leave. I was embarrassed and annoyed at my uncle for taking me there. I really just wanted to go home, but my uncle wouldn’t allow it. He bought a six-pack of VB for us to drink on the shore and he pointed out the stars. There’s no doubt he was trying to loosen my inhibitions through liquor, but I think he also needed to grease his depravity the same way. After a beer, maybe two – accompanied by his sickly beatification of me – he suggested we go back home. That suited me. Things were definitely feeling strange.

And now, a staccato account: he said we should finish the beer in my room; said we should put on some music. He said we should turn off the light, that the digital display of my CD player would provide sufficient ambience. I remember the thin blue glow. He said it was cold, suggested we get warm in bed. Today I can’t tell you why I did as he said, other than to suspect some thick serum of trust, confusion and an ineradicable fear of offending him. And then… paralysis.

The next morning I ran a bath and I sat in it for a long time. It was there that I decided not to tell my parents. It would be too painful for them. This wasn’t a big deal; I could handle it. As it was, they found out anyway.

That night I went to a party, drank, played spin-the-bottle and kissed a girl in a park. Then I slept at a friend’s place. The day after that I didn’t want to go home. I didn’t want to see my uncle, to visit ground zero. I wandered the harbour instead. It was hard to go home and, once I did, I couldn’t go back to my room – I slept on the floor in front of the telly for a few nights. Eventually I returned to my bedroom, but could not sleep in the bed. Again, I took to the floor, probably for a few weeks. But I was slowly reclaiming my spaces. At least the ones outside my head.

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Conspiracy of normalcy

I personally don’t like the term “survivor” and never use it. But I respect its bluntness and muscularity, the comfort it can provide to the abused. The word’s strength is in its lack of ambiguity, the implied resilience and dignity of the person it designates. How people conceive of or classify the abuse is theirs alone. But the word’s not for me. It’s too stark, self-conscious and definitive. I’m lucky – I rarely think about what happened. It’s not the central fact of my life – there is no central fact of my life, there’s only life itself.

Strangely, I was not angry with my abuser – then or now. I have not wished him dead or injured. I was uncomfortable when, in ensuing years, he continued to send us Christmas cards stuffed with cash, and I was aggrieved when I was asked to write a short note of thanks in reply. It was a rancid conspiracy of normalcy and I refused to participate. My extended family had become a small reflection of the Catholic Church’s closed institutions, the ones grown spiritually mouldy with secrecy and moral cowardice.

I lied about not being angry. There was something that stung me. In the messy and confusing aftermath, some blamed me for what happened – specifically, I was asked if I had encouraged it. That hurt and, after a stunned pause, I bitterly expressed my incredulity.

This wasn’t the most disturbing consequence. Not long afterwards, a family member mused thoughtlessly in my company that abuse engenders abuse. I instantly felt sick. The comment shredded me, and I carried it for some time. I thought, naively, that I was doomed to be an abuser myself – conscripted by fate to play out what happened to me. I was cursed.

As a young man I moved to South Korea to teach English to young children. One day, while supervising the kids in the playground, I began brutally thinking about my curse. I broke out in a sweat. Was the curse real? Should I be here? Was I doomed to offend, to play out some cyclical indecency? I wasn’t and I’m not, but that loose comment years earlier took a while to leave my system.

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Paradox of treatment

Sullivan told me the research doubted that abuse predicted abuse. “There was research conducted at Melbourne that used a database linkage study of children who were sexually abused – they were reported to police, forensically examined – and then followed up and linked to coronial and police records. It shows that for boys abused over the age of 12 the likelihood of progressing to a future [general, non-sexual] offending career is very significantly increased. That doesn’t mean necessarily there’s a causal relationship, but that perhaps that’s a population who have demonstrated some markers of vulnerability. It certainly doesn’t predict a person will go on to abuse. So I think it’s otherwise an urban mythology, and at times something that’s invoked by those who sexually abuse children. Whether it’s true, or something to invoke sympathy, cannot be determined necessarily.”

Nick had also been abused as a child – by his summer camp leader – and for a while he suspected it was a cause of his paedophilia. He began fantasising about boys his own age not long after. But now he says, “Scientists I’ve spoken to do not believe that this ‘abused to abuser’ hypothesis withstands scrutiny.”

In 1985, the French filmmaker Claude Lanzmann released a nine-and-a-half-hour documentary on the Holocaust. Shoah used no archival footage and had no narrative – other than the one formed by the poignant sum of the interviews with survivors. Lanzmann’s intent was simply to bear witness – the crime of the Holocaust was cosmic in scale, it defied rationalisation. But Lanzmann went further: he believed that trying to explain Hitler was vulgar and morally irresponsible – that the attempt to understand would conclude with empathy. He called it “the obscenity of the very project of understanding”.

Paedophilia provokes similar feelings. We are terrified that the act of explanation will lead inexorably to understanding, then to sympathy. We are terrified that we will erode the notion of personal responsibility, of choice, of wilful criminality. Nick and Dr Danny Sullivan have, in their own ways, stressed the importance of personal strength and choice. Paedophilia cannot simply be categorised as an illness – there is a choice to act upon it. But our moral panic has also prevented many from being treated. There exists in Australia a perverse catch-22. “Victoria is fortunate that the Victorian Institute of Forensic Mental Health, and some private practitioners, will offer treatment to people prior to their having offended, but in many places the only effective treatment programs are available only to offenders,” Sullivan says. “Paradoxically, this means people at risk of offending can’t find anything effective until they’ve offended.”

Nick agrees. He ends our correspondence with a plea for understanding. “Imagine that a child of yours was unfortunate enough to be sexually attracted to children. He’s never had sexual contact with a child, but he is attracted to them. What would you want for him? What would you do? Would you want him to face his paedophilia alone, to hate himself, to be hated by others, maybe become suicidal? Or would you instead hope that he received sympathy and support, access to professionals
who could help in his efforts to avoid abusing a child?”

I don’t know what any of this means. I can’t cleverly synthesise what you’ve just read. I sense that others feel I should be angry or shattered, but I’m not. I sense how others assume this must be important to me, but it largely isn’t. I am neither an apologist nor a crusader. I am not embarrassed or ashamed. But I cannot reconcile the duelling qualities of paedophilia – biology and morality; innateness and personal responsibility. Nor do I need to. If I walk away with a maxim, it is this: moral putrefaction is the result of doing nothing.

http://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/...e-the-mind-paedophile/1399644000#.U7NPnx9d48p
 
Some really good posts here namely from psoodonym and bit_pattern.

I'm not sure if most here would know who Rolf Harris is, but to those that don't, he is an Australian born 'entertainer' and has recently been found guilty of several counts of indecent assault on young teenage girls. I heard him referred to as a "convicted paedophile" which seemed to be something of an odd statement to me. He hasn't been found guilty of paedophilia; its not an actual crime. The assaults, of course, are. But- as mentioned in the article bit_pattern posted- our society has routinely criminalised 'deviant' sexual proclivities, often even when no offense has been committed. As a society, with the tremendous weight of christian morality upon us, we demonise things like 'thoughts' and 'desires'. That is lunacy. There is nothing at all wrong with anything a person thinks or desires if it happens that they have not acted upon these desires. I can still be a good person even when I want to kill my boss ;) But our society doesn't see it that way and I tend to think this incredible focus on thought/desire has its origins within christianity and its idea that god is, for some reason, able to and actively listening to our thoughts. Given the likely non-truth of that concept, it is a tragedy that people, such as Nick, have very little support for their situation because, by simply having these thoughts, they are already condemned. Its a risky feedback cycle because once they are condemned, they are unlikely to seek help.

Purely speculative, but I sometimes think that the weight we put onto desire and sexual thoughts simply works to reinforce these desires to the point that they are more likely to be acted upon because they become more exotic, exciting, mysterious etc. Constant repression of desire seems practically useless, in that it certainly doesn't decrease this desire. If anything, frank examination of this desire is usually enough to either negate it or minimise it. Trying to escape desire doesn't really seem to work as every drug addict ever would know...
 
As a society, with the tremendous weight of christian morality upon us, we demonise things like 'thoughts' and 'desires'. That is lunacy. There is nothing at all wrong with anything a person thinks or desires if it happens that they have not acted upon these desires. I can still be a good person even when I want to kill my boss ;) But our society doesn't see it that way and I tend to think this incredible focus on thought/desire has its origins within christianity and its idea that god is, for some reason, able to and actively listening to our thoughts. Given the likely non-truth of that concept, it is a tragedy that people, such as Nick, have very little support for their situation because, by simply having these thoughts, they are already condemned. Its a risky feedback cycle because once they are condemned, they are unlikely to seek help.
I came across an article that hypothesized along these lines years ago while researching a far more extreme paraphilia: the abstract of "The Political Use and Abuse of the 'Pedophile'”:

The cognitive/affective construct designated by the term “pedophile” is delineated on the basis of how he is presented in the popular media. His salient characteristics are listed and then examined in the light of scientific and historical data. The “pedophile” is discovered to be a “social construct that floats in the thin air of fantasy.” Since the truth-value of the construct “pedophile” approaches zero, we are confronted with the question of why he continues to be such a central and emotionally fraught aspect of American culture. The answer to this question is found in his political usefulness. Specifically, the religious right uses him to further its agenda of sexual repression, and the political right uses him to dismantle the machinery of a free society.
 
I'm not trying make excuses for crimes. I am just tired of this bias towards men, as if it is inherent to our nature to do these things. I am especially tired of the bigots of hypocracy like alice_chipper whose lifelong hatred and vindictiveness perpetuate the conflict as if their goal in life is to make themselves into someone who deserved the abuse they received.

You do not even know me in the slightest so how can you make such a claim? Serious question. One of the most simplistic arguments made by those who do not like or do not understand what another says is to construct them in a manner that just erases their credibility or worthiness. Discourse analysis 101. Maybe I have something to give on such topic given my field is "domestic" murder law and sexual assault convictions. Maybe I am not a victim at all but have learned and studied a controversial topic for years. So write whatever you want but I judge people on intelligent use of evidence & critical thinking. In my personal life I have a wonderful man who has shared a respecting love with me for the past 15 years.... But any fool who studies murder and sexed crimes would be an idiot if they didn't notice the massive inequality of men perpetrating crimes onto women & children & subsequently realise that people prefer hostile ignorance than a frank discussion. Why cant we be real about this? Why is it so disproportionate? I would love a space that expanded the perifery of knowledge so I could learn from others rather than be dissapointed by tedious discursive maneuvers.
 
Lol, I've seen you plug this book in two different threads in just the past few days. I mean, it's brilliantly insightful and essentially established a new way of conceptualizing and investigating social systems. But I'm not sure what foucault would say about pedophilia though.

ebola

He says quite a lot about pedophilla actually. It is a major focus. And it is the first time I "plugged" the book. I replied to a thread on favourite quotes about a week ago with something written from Foucault as I follow a Foucaldian poststructural methodology & enjoy his work. Not sure that deserves a LOL but whatever.
 
You do not even know me in the slightest so how can you make such a claim? Serious question. One of the most simplistic arguments made by those who do not like or do not understand what another says is to construct them in a manner that just erases their credibility or worthiness. Discourse analysis 101. Maybe I have something to give on such topic given my field is "domestic" murder law and sexual assault convictions. Maybe I am not a victim at all but have learned and studied a controversial topic for years. So write whatever you want but I judge people on intelligent use of evidence & critical thinking. In my personal life I have a wonderful man who has shared a respecting love with me for the past 15 years.... But any fool who studies murder and sexed crimes would be an idiot if they didn't notice the massive inequality of men perpetrating crimes onto women & children & subsequently realise that people prefer hostile ignorance than a frank discussion. Why cant we be real about this? Why is it so disproportionate? I would love a space that expanded the perifery of knowledge so I could learn from others rather than be dissapointed by tedious discursive maneuvers.

You keep deviating from the point. I was talking about the incidence of criminal charges and convictions against women versus men after a crime has already been committed. Women can invariably weasel out of these things by playing the victim and taking advantage of cultural bias in favour of women while men cannot. I am not just talking about sex crimes either, there is more crime in the world than the two you have studied, apparently to heighten your bigotry towards men. What you are arguing against isn't even what was talking about. I can judge you based on the prejudices illuminated from your previous posts.

I could answer your final question, I just wonder if you are ready for it....
 
DankOpiAmp said:
I can judge you based on the prejudices illuminated from your previous posts

Which is a truly sad thing. But its happening in me and others too, I would imagine. :|

As a neutral third party, I'm finding it hard to see the bigotry you are so decrying in others posts. You are doing very little to contribute sensibly to this discussion because you seem to be launching personal and unsubstantiated attacks with some regularity, apropos of nothing. I haven't seen much anti-male bigotry in Alice's posts; more a sad statement of fact. It is true that men are implicated in more violence then woman. This is a combination of nature and culture. Its a sad fact and indicates that our society and culture needs to change- not just male culture. It is misguided to try and claim that men are being persecuted- its patently not true. You've not provided any sources for what you are claiming and due to that I have to assume that this is merely your own chosen opinion.

What's worse, though, is that you are attacking people and then exhibiting the exact same qualities that you are so adamantly opposed to.

Dank said:
Women can invariably weasel out of these things by playing the victim

Dank said:
Rape culture only exists in India and the muslim world

Dank said:
You are just slovenly, mentally deficient damaged goods

Dank said:
Stop being a whore and don't go along with it

I think you need to reflect on whether you do have something useful to contribute to this thread. At this stage, it doesn't really seem that you do. Consider refraining from this discussion until such time as you have something of substance to add.
 
Sounds like someone with disturbed deep-seated issues with women they feel they are entitled to do anything to get they're way back.

And Rape culture only exists in India and the Muslim world?
I think it occurs all accross the board, but female sexual assault has never been a priority in this world (where not getting laid is a more pressing concern - the savage human in all its glory).

Protection of children means nothing.
 
In my experience, pedophilia has been the most difficult and cumbersome topic to discuss in private or public, with friends and family or with strangers.

One would require God-like tact and rhetoric to even allude to holding an unorthodox opinion on the topic, lest one unleashes a torrential downpour of vitriol and a tempestuous tirade of ad hominem attack and unfounded accusations of one being a secret pedophile themselves.


But I feel particularly safe from censure online, and so feel free to divulge my opinions and beliefs.
People seem to possess the erroneous belief that anyone that ever finds a legally-defined minor at all arousing or sexually attractive under any circumstances is a complete and total pedophile. Period.


This mainstream notion is flawed in several ways.


For starters, pedophilia is a clinical term that is roughly defined as a pervasive and primary sexual attraction to prepubescent children (12<). That is to say, a pedophile is primarily attracted to children younger than 13 and, if given their druthers, would never engage in adult-adult courtship. That one time you got a boner from loli doesn't make you a pedophile unless it happens more than with adult females and if you prefer that jailbait (or in this case felony-bait) more than grandma or some mid-age wannabe lascivious lilliputian teenybopper.


Wanting to fuck your neighbor's lubricious 15 year old daughter doesn't make you a pedophile. In point of fact, it makes you an ephebephile, which most sincere males who are honest with themselves veritably are, goddammit.


It seems to be an evolutionary motif that organisms' paramount objective is to reproduce, with everything else simply functioning as a means of furtherance of that aforesaid paramount objective. With this biological fact considered, it makes no sense for human males to have evolved to not find the most fertile and salubrious females the most titillating.


Females, from the time of their menarche, have a limited quantity of gametes or ovum/ova. A gamete is lost with every menstruation, meaning that a percentage of the female's reproductive potential is simultaneously lost forever.


As human females gradually lose their reproductive ability through age and menstruation, it would be logical and beneficial for the continuation of the species if human males had evolved an attraction to those females most likely to successfully reproduce—those females between the ages of first menarche (about 13) and around mid-20s at most.


Now, I could blather on indefinitely about this highly emotive "issue". But I shan't. I will, however, conclude by saying that pedophilia is as much a choice as any LGBT or heterosexual attraction—it is an innate proclivity, not a choice. Seriously, what sane individual would make such a socially deleterious choice? It would be tantamount to choosing to be black in 1930s Mississippi, or something.
 
He says quite a lot about pedophilla actually. It is a major focus. And it is the first time I "plugged" the book. I replied to a thread on favourite quotes about a week ago with something written from Foucault as I follow a Foucaldian poststructural methodology & enjoy his work. Not sure that deserves a LOL but whatever.

Interesting. In what works do you consider this a major focus, and how do you think it shapes his overall picture of modernity? Hah, I was actually just happy to see Foucault mentioned that often but put my comment extremely poorly.

ebola
 
Which is a truly sad thing. But its happening in me and others too, I would imagine. :|

As a neutral third party, I'm finding it hard to see the bigotry you are so decrying in others posts. You are doing very little to contribute sensibly to this discussion because you seem to be launching personal and unsubstantiated attacks with some regularity, apropos of nothing. I haven't seen much anti-male bigotry in Alice's posts; more a sad statement of fact. It is true that men are implicated in more violence then woman. This is a combination of nature and culture. Its a sad fact and indicates that our society and culture needs to change- not just male culture. It is misguided to try and claim that men are being persecuted- its patently not true. You've not provided any sources for what you are claiming and due to that I have to assume that this is merely your own chosen opinion.

What's worse, though, is that you are attacking people and then exhibiting the exact same qualities that you are so adamantly opposed to.

I think you need to reflect on whether you do have something useful to contribute to this thread. At this stage, it doesn't really seem that you do. Consider refraining from this discussion until such time as you have something of substance to add.

If you don't agree with what I have to say than you can suck it bubba. You are spouting your opinions without sources as well, besides the sexual assault numbers. You also seem to gloss over what I said about women and indirect (passive) aggression, I did not just make it up.

http://www.bestgore.com/guest-post/societal-misandry-in-the-anti-male-world/

This is a Canadian example but most of it applies elsewhere. You can ignore the stuff about the site's owner and his personal court case as it is an individual one. I don't agree with a lot of what is on the rest of this website and I don't recommend visiting any other pages since it is un censored violence media from around the world coupled with conspiracy speculation about Israel etc.

Before you bastards criticize this source so arrogantly, try actually reading through it all so you don't just make some categorical comment and dismiss it without even knowing what it says.
 
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Sounds like someone with disturbed deep-seated issues with women they feel they are entitled to do anything to get they're way back.

And Rape culture only exists in India and the Muslim world?
I think it occurs all accross the board, but female sexual assault has never been a priority in this world (where not getting laid is a more pressing concern - the savage human in all its glory).

Protection of children means nothing.

Sounds like a pretentious compu-skank armchair-psychologist who thinks she knows me through the computer. Rape cases are dealt with heavy-handedly across the West and if any small rape cultures exist they are an absolute joke compared to in India and the muslim world.

I sure hope you didn't fall for the American study in universities that pretended all drunk women who have consented to sex were raped. If you are referring to university culture you are simply wrong and were duped by a flawed study.

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Back on topic: there seems to be this absurd focus on getting a pleasure from brutally punishing pedophile's after the fact while acting as if their origins are just mysterious. Steven Harper said it all when he stated " We don't know how these (pedo's) think, and we don't care to." Getting a "justice" clit-swell from "evil" people being punished is always the focus. There is this mentality that actively studying pedophilia is somehow taboo because it validates them or something. The public's visceral response to the concept perpetuates our ignorance on the subject.
 
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^I agree with that. The knee-jerk ultra violence as retribution is really pointless. Still, no need to frame all statements from a standpoint of misogyny.

If you don't agree with what I have to say than you can suck it bubba. You are spouting your opinions without sources as well, besides the sexual assault numbers. You also seem to gloss over what I said about women and indirect (passive) aggression, I did not just make it up.

Okay then, prove it. I'd be interested in quantification of female passive aggression; I wouldn't have thought it possible. Instead of glossing over that comment, I ignored it. There's nothing to be said about that until you make an effort to back some of your statements up. You seem unwilling to do this, and there are a few possible reasons. The most likely reason is because you have no sources to reinforce your opinions. That's actually fine. Opinions don't automatically require some sort of referential substantiation. However, when the opinions are referring to speculation as fact, you will be called out on that. That's what you are doing and that's why I'm questioning you.

My own post didn't really contain any allegations and as such I'm under no compulsion to provide sources for this. Its simple. My post was pure opinion.


Dank said:
Before you bastards criticize this source so arrogantly, try actually reading through it all so you don't just make some categorical comment and dismiss it without even knowing what it says.

I read a bit of that but I'm not interested in visiting that sort of webpage. What I did read was interesting but seemed clearly biased.

But don't claim that sort of stuff as a 'source' for gods sake :D Its a post by some random dude on a random website....! Judging by the rest of his output, I feel comfortable in largely disregarding it.
 
Wow you did exactly what I warned against. How can you criticize the page (website criticism aside) without reading it fully? You quoted me then explained how you did what I described to the tee. You are too weak minded to argue with the content so you brush it all off as biased.

I am also not "misogynistic". I am just saying women are not more peaceful and law abiding then men when you take everything into consideration. It seems everything you believe is idealistic fluff opinion. You demand sources then claim your statements don't require them. What you say is an attempt to avoid even thinking about alternative opinions without even knowing what exactly they are.

"Rates of indirect aggression are higher for girls than for boys"
"Thus, girls' reliance on strategies of aggression that are covert, and easily denied if detected may reflect their recognition that displays of physical aggression on their part will attract attention and punishment." ("How Children Develop, 3rd edition" Seigler, Deloache and Eisenberg, worth publishers, 2007)
The textbook also states that these differences gradually begin in preschool and increase during childhood development. (Hays, 2007)

Stop spewing bogus opinions then claiming everyone else is biased. That fact that you ignore statements you don't like makes you seem juvenile.
 
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^You have to be the most aggressive, creepy person I've ever encountered on bluelight.
Don't take that wrong.
 
^:\

Wow you did exactly what I warned against. How can you criticize the page (website criticism aside) without reading it fully? You quoted me then explained how you did what I described to the tee. You are too weak minded to argue with the content so you brush it all off as biased.

My decision has nothing to do with being "weak minded", but more to do with applying discerning reason to the context of this "source" you somehow found. I consider credible source material to be that which is published in peer-reviewed or academic publications backed by research, not random internet posts. And I have no desire to argue against the content of a post on a gore website. Why should I do so? This is a debate on bluelight, in the thread right now. Its akin to me posting a youtube comment here and for some reason expecting you to refute it.

Dank said:
You demand sources then claim your statements don't require them. What you say is an attempt to avoid even thinking about alternative opinions without even knowing what exactly they are.

I am not making claims, you are. You are claiming the existence of certain facts, thus the onus is on you to substantiate them. My disagreeing with the veracity of your claims, given the paucity of evidence you provided, is totally legit.

"Rates of indirect aggression are higher for girls than for boys"
"Thus, girls' reliance on strategies of aggression that are covert, and easily denied if detected may reflect their recognition that displays of physical aggression on their part will attract attention and punishment." ("How Children Develop, 3rd edition" Seigler, Deloache and Eisenberg, worth publishers, 2007)
The textbook also states that these differences gradually begin in preschool and increase during childhood development. (Hays, 2007)

Hmm, okay that is quite interesting. This doesn't neccesarily surprise me- given the facts of biology, it makes sense for human females to develop different methods for output of aggression then males. It doesn't, however, explain anything else that you have claimed. All it indicates is that, like males, females are also aggressive. No-one at all is disputing that and saying that woman are saintly and men are violent cunts. Anyone who does say such a thing is just as misguided.

FWIW, Dank, I am not trying to upset you or make you angry, and I hope you don't feel persecuted by my comments. I just feel that they need to be challenged in the same way that any misinformation should be. Its not meant to be taken personally at all. :)

Mods, forgive the excess of off topic discussion here. I imagine this thread could be split up and clarified in someway perhaps....?
 
Hey everyone:

if we want to continue this discussion, we'll have to play more nicely than this.

ebola

Yeah seriously, this is ridiculous.

And I don't know what pedophilia has to do with rape or women's rights.

Let's also keep in mind that being a pedophile does not actually make a person a criminal, since what's in your head isn't a crime. I see people all the time saying to "put them on an island" or kill them, which is, at best, heavy handed.

It is also ridiculous to say that "most pedophiles rape children". How could you possibly know that? To even begin to quantify such a statement you'd have to have some idea of how many pedophiles there are in a given country. And since pedophiles aren't exactly forthcoming, you can't know how many there are, and thus you have no idea if "most" of them are indeed sex offenders. Could be they all are,(unlikely) could be just 2%(highly unlikely) but we don't know.

But this is an interesting topic, so it would be nice to get back on track. I don't post here very often,(I prefer my drugs ;) ) but this doesn't exactly inspire my confidence.
 
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