Here's the link I have (copy and paste: hyperlink feature causes page to crash on iPad). Vortechs discussion is related to MXE batches in the book but he uses the same color description for other dissociatives.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BznGre-0Bn01TGplanp0NmFGYWs/view?pref=2&pli=1
Dissociatives can be rather psychedelic and vice versa with psychedelics I've found as well. For example, I find DOC to be a dissociative-psychedelic in high doses. interesting you have a theory about it. All I got some anecdotal evidence for it but right on.
Wow, it looks pretty thorough! I'll have to give it a read when I've really got the time to dedicate.
I have to admit that I'm not really a big fan of dissociatives, and I won't be able to relate through personal experience that much, but I do still find the topic very interesting and connected to psychedelics. MXE in particular is one I never really got the chance to try, but I'd take it at least once for the experience if it found its way to me somehow.
As a personal note, my suspicion based on my experiences is that my favorite hallucinogenic effects may come from cortical GABA release. If there's some truth to this, I figure it may also be why some of the same effects I feel and enjoy in psychedelics don't do that much for me on dissociatives, because reason tells me that their similar-but-different-ness is probably mediated by an increase in cortical glutamate, with that glutamate being free to stimulate NMDA receptors on GABA interneurons when released by psychedelics, but with that same receptor blocked and the GABA concentration instead decreased as an inherent mechanism behind the glutamate release in the first place with dissociatives. In addition, bringing in another new perspective, many psychedelic effects that I
do not find in dissociatives I have only ever found otherwise through muscimol via Amanita mushrooms, which of course works as a direct GABA(A) agonist. These also include many of the effects I get on psychedelics that I find similar to deliriants.
In relation to DOC, I tried it myself recently and would very much have to agree. This distinctly dissociative-like feeling I recognized significantly from unidentified DOx blotter experiences in the past as well, and, interestingly, I also get it recently very strongly on a high dose of 4-HO-MiPT, and to a lesser extent on an also comparably less intense overall trip on MiPT. Given all of this and what I've already said, my strong suspicion is that 5-HT2A receptors naturally produces those dissociative-like effects through glutamate release, and 5-HT1A receptors which are present on the same cortical pyramidal cells inhibit this effect relative to its other activities, giving the DOx group, which lacks significant 5-HT1A activity as a whole, and 4-HO-MiPT and MiPT, which I believe may have the lowest activity there of their structural groups based on the available data, more dissociative-like effects than other comparable psychedelics. Notably, 5-MeO-MiPT did not have this feeling for me despite the fact that I think it should also have the least activity of its group, but, as an analogue of 5-MeO-DMT, this is not too surprising; the PDSP data I know shows that it has some 36x selectivity for 5-HT1A over 5-HT2A, which, to be fair, is still meager compared to 5-MeO-DMT's 1058x selectivity in the same data set, but it's still about 7x greater selectivity than psilocin has.
Fascinatingly, 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C, which are known to oppositely regulate behavior, have also recently been shown to be present on many of the same cortical GABA interneurons. Based on the fact that 5-HT2A receptors are well-known to cause GABA release as well, even going as far to apparently be able to reverse NMDA antagonist neurotoxicity, my guess would have to be then that 5-HT2C receptors inhibit this same GABA release. This is quite interesting to me as well, because, of the psychedelics that I have this same PDSP data for, only LSD, 5-MeO-MiPT, and phenethylamine and amphetamine derivatives have selectivity for 5-HT2A over 5-HT2C, whereas DMT, psilocin, 5-MeO-DMT, and DPT were rather all selective for the latter. So, the only "red trip" tryptamine of mine on the list is 5-MeO-MiPT and it is also the only tryptamine with 5-HT2A selectivity in this way, and though I'm not yet entirely confident in saying that the red vs blue setup will transfer to other structural classes, I do feel confident in saying that those deliriant-like effects that I can compare to the other red trips and muscimol I have only otherwise significantly experienced on LSD and DOC.
So, now to put some perspective on it.... Looking at 5-MeO-MiPT again, it would appear that it actually has the highest 5-HT2A selectivity over 5-HT2C of any of these chemicals that I've taken, but it also has by far the most 5-HT1A selectivity over 5-HT2A of any of them in that group. My assumption about its activity then would be that it could produce a very high amount of 5-HT2A-mediated GABA release relative to glutamate release, theoretically making it considerably more deliriant-like than dissociative-like. As I mentioned before, the dissociative feeling I found in DOC and other MiPTs was also absent with this one for me, so that lines up, whereas my visuals particularly with eyes closed were incredibly complex, structured, and panoramic, but still primarily visual hallucinations rather than something like an immersive vision, and that seems logical to me too. 5-MeO-MiPT, perhaps significantly, may also be the "reddest" of all the trips for me, producing literally no blue trip visuals at the dose I took so far, as opposed to something like 4-HO-MET or MiPT which both lean more to the red side for me but do have blue qualities as well. The only one I would say comes the closest to it so far is 4-HO-DET, producing only red trip visuals at a low doses but some mild blue trip visuals at high doses too (which to be fair may turn out to be true with 5-MeO-MiPT as well, I can't say), but unfortunately I'm not aware of any data of 4-HO-DET being tested at human receptors. However, my hunch based on observing structure-activity trends is that it might be because 4-HO-MET has less 5-HT1A activity than psilocin, leading up to 4-HO-MiPT which has even less, whereas 4-HO-DET might have more, leading to 4-HO-DPT and 4-HO-DiPT which probably have the most.
On that note, given that DPT is selective for both 5-HT1A and 5-HT2C over 5-HT2A, I wonder if a similar relationship is true for 4-HO-DPT? If it is, that might help me explain the blue trips too.... I suppose the overall impact would be a high amount of GABA
decrease in relation to a low glutamate increase or even decrease, which for me could explain why 4-HO-DPT lacks the deliriant feeling of its red counterpart 4-HO-DET and the others, but interestingly, I also find it to have similar but different dissociative feeling than 4-HO-MiPT, and I find both of them to produce blue trips. Now I am really reaching in terms of just making more claims without having scientific evidence to back it up, but, given the way dissociatives work, I am really starting to wonder now if those blue trip, dissociative-like effects could result from
either high glutamate or low GABA, excitation or disinhibition, essentially leading to similar states of activity? This seems that it could justify why some psychedelics produce a mix of both effects, through releasing both glutamate and GABA, whereas others produce the blue trip even though they may even decrease both of them, which seems hard to reconcile otherwise. Very, very interesting....
Anyway, that's probably about enough of that for now.... I could ramble on about that for ages. I just find it all so very compelling because, though I have to say that my blue trips feel more "classical" to me in the sense that it's what I find mushrooms and LSD to share whereas only the latter has the red qualities, I really think that those red trips are starting to become my favorite experiences, particularly those "selective" reds like 5-MeO-MiPT and 4-HO-DET, and I just love trying to understand the mechanisms behind why that could be. If indeed a purely red trip is mediated by a strong 5-HT2A-driven GABA release with only negligible effects on glutamate, it sure would work well with all my previous theories about which types of psychoactive drugs I most prefer as well.... If only someone would just test all of my favorite psychedelic substances side by side at all of these receptors now so I could know for sure!
