☮ Social ☮ PD Social Tripping Thread: aLL aBoArD tHe MoThErShiP 👽🛸

[perpetualdawn]

but to me it's a bug, not a feature

I feel like you meant "it's a feature, not a bug"?

I see it as a diet 2C-E.

I agree with that

I think there is a good chance you find yourself in the group that thinks of 2C-D as too mild.

Yeah it's definitely mild, and I get the sense the @Esperighanto might like it a bit spicier. As I've written ad nauseum on this forum, I love love love 2C-D but I totally get how it's just not enough for a lot of people.

2C-E is awesome too, definitely the more defined, powerful, edgier variant on the alkylated 2C pattern. If I had to pick one or the other I'd probably pick 2C-E because it just goes farther, but 2C-D is so nice to have in the tool belt and I find myself reaching for it more regularly than 2C-E.

 

[xdrc]

I feel like you meant "it's a feature, not a bug"?

Yes, edited it now.

2C-E is awesome too, definitely the more defined, powerful, edgier variant on the alkylated 2C pattern. If I had to pick one or the other I'd probably pick 2C-E because it just goes farther, but 2C-D is so nice to have in the tool belt and I find myself reaching for it more regularly than 2C-E.

And I agree with that. I think if I could only have one, 2C-E would be the preferred one, as it is very powerful and deep and special, but with having the ability to choose, 2C-D I can and will use more frequently.

Edit: Post 420

 

[Cream Gravy?]

Edit: Post 420

 

[Esperighanto]

I don't know how Ann Shulgin was in person, but I like to imagine 2C-B as her spirit. Hey, don't take life so serious and why not put a smile on your face, dear?

I don't know why this is saying I'm responding to your four comments inside of a superset comment of yours, sorry about that. BL's formatting is a hassle sometimes. 2C-B Does seem like it would embody Ann Shulgin to quite a degree, we share birthdays and purposes in life and I could possibly be represented by 2C-B imo. I think that in my case, living through being terminally ill as a child->teenager and then growing up into a world where everybody takes the slightest thing so seriously, it all strikes me as goofy. The beauty of nothing meaning anything inherently is that we can arbitrarily assign that meaning as we please, I've heard the term 'cathexis' used to refer to that placement of sentimentality or value to a certain concept before.

I might actually need to revise my stance on 2C-C. Perhaps it isn't shallower than 2C-B and has the advantage of me liking the visuals a bit more and not getting a headache the next day from it (which did go away after a sub-visual microdose of DMT, but not instantly, so I'm not yet to call it a cure). Perhaps 2C-B is a little more euphoric.

Interesting that the sub-breakthrough dose of DMT got rid of the headache, I used to notice a migraine coming on with a scintillating scotoma (the weird rainbow aura things) and I would hit the deemz pen a few times, just baby hits like I'd use to motivate myself to vacuum or something (DMT is my favorite stimulant) and the migraines always went away somehow. I should try that with DPT soon. 5-MeO-DiPT alleviated most forms of pain but only when vaporized which I always found very peculiar. I stole the term "Lava lamp trip" from you for that book project I'm writing, Tactful Relationships With Drugs. There's a section I'm just calling "Thematic Psychonautics" for now until I can think of a better name, but it's covering the concepts of associating the intersections of set, setting, and substance to specific tasks that they are particularly fitting for. The concept of a "lava lamp" experience being one where you utilize sensory distortions from drugs either for recreation or for guiding your thoughts to unexpected places is what I've been developing there, specifically as it relates to the term I yoinked from you.

I think it can go a little deeper than what I had on Friday night, but it was absolutely gorgeous as is. I made myself a little custom silicone mould from a 3D printed positive (3x3 tabs, just for personal use) and agartabbed the 2C-B into 24 mg tabs splittable into quarters. First took 3/4, but then at 30 min it was already coming on very euphoric so I took the missing quarter.

Can I ask, roughly what size are these gel tabs? I was considering making some 2x2cm square pyramids, but I've been kind of back and forth on whether pyramids or squares (with a little indented line so it can be evenly cut). Also lets say you're working with a totally inert test run in the mold, is it just agar and water? Any specific drying/curing process? I've had poor luck so far with the production of gel tabs relative to paper blotter.

Also @Esperighanto , you asked about 2C-D's introspective nature. It is hard for me to put in words, but it just makes me think how I treat myself and others, more so than materials like 2C-C or 2C-B. It's quite neutral for me. It can be euphoric, but it usually does not imprint a certain mood on me. I think that's why some people disregard it as bland, but to me it's a feature, not a bug. It is also very light on the body and while insightful, not too harsh on the mind. I truly think it could be an excellent tool for therapy. It does at times lack a bit of punch in terms of actually following through with the insights however. My hunch is that if the theory of reopening critical learning periods to change habits after a trip is true, it correlates both with the strength of the trip and duration of the trip, for which 2C-D is certainly lacking in the latter department. But that's also one of its strengths. I see it as a diet 2C-E. Much of the same neutralness, honesty, but none of the brutality in terms of mind and body (if you find yourself among the group of 2C-E responders like me, for which it is best described as 'beautiful torture'). Your mileage may vary though, I can only speak for myself. I certainly recommend trying to get your hands on both 2C-D and 2C-E to see for yourself. I think you are going to like 2C-E more though, I think there is a good chance you find yourself in the group that thinks of 2C-D as too mild.

Ok it finally let me out of the text block that made it look like you were replying to yourself xdrc, sorry about that. I wish they would just let me edit the text formatting directly, but hey, what're you gonna do. Your hunch about how 2C-D may lack the duration necessary to maintain a reopened critical learning period that's of useful length, it makes me wonder if 2C-D-5-EtO would be a more ideal compound. The 5-Ethoxy tweetios were consistently regarded as longer lasting, PiHKAL mentioned a test subject referring to 2C-E-5-EtO as "eternity". ASRI (the Shulgin research institute) also patented one of the 2-substituted tweetios that should make for a less intense and more brief compound, I think it was 2C-B-2-Isopropoxy? Not positive right now, and also ngl, stoned as a statue so typing coherently is a slight bit more difficult than usual.

I've found a certain neutral feeling to exist in mescaline, 3C-P, and DOM, and I wonder if it will be in this TMA-2 once I get around to trying it finally. I also wonder if that same neutralness is something I'll eventually find in 2C-D, 2C-E, DOEt, and other 4-alkylated/alkoxylated phenethylamines. I will inevitably run through trying every 2C/DO/Likely every psychedelic phenethylamine that I can reasonably find synthesis and safety information about. Genuinely sampling as much of the SAR as I reasonably can is ideal for me, so that I can try to feel it out to further inform logical design of novel compounds, and to reflect on the therapeutic models that they are best applied to. Life's just moving slow man, I recently pivoted to aiming to become a teacher since it's an in demand job and I love doing it. It just means that getting back on my feet financially is going to be even slower right now but, hey my country's experiencing a collapse into idiocracy-style fascism, so I'm just trying to stay afloat and be able to afford food, medication for the numerous chronic illnesses, all that shit. Thankfully I've got family and community, but so many people here don't have anything to fall back on and it's fucking heartbreaking and terrifying.

After having only used psilocybin and LSD, I read the entirety of PiHKAL and TiHKAL and the drugs in those books which caught my eyes the most were DOI, 2C-E(-5EtO especially), AL-LAD, 5-MeO-DiPT, DOM, DESOXY, DPT, TMA-2, MEM and the thioscalines. Almost all of those are things that are only accessible via chemistry, but I've been lucky enough to stumble into two of them so far, 5-MeO-DiPT and DOM, and they both proved to be fascinating tools with beneficial aspects I simply had no capacity to predict. A couple of weeks ago an experience involving DOM and datura ointment led to the processing of some trauma from 12 years ago that I expected to never be able to recover from, it was 25mg of DOM insufflated alongside ~6 pinky sized globs of 5mg/mL datura (and henbane) ointment. The neon, counterflip-ish CEVs drew a pastel outline, burning bright of a person in my past wearing the clothes of another person, both of them were responsible for the specific trauma that this strange CEV led to me processing that night. It's what I later addressed with a rolling psychedelic binge, in 3 weeks I think it was 25I-NBOMe, 25B-NBOH, 25E-NBOH, miprocin, DOM, and then LSD until I finally developed any tolerance for reasons I still cannot explain. Very thoroughly managed to experience the catharsis and processing that I was after though, so it was more than worth the kind of absurd amount of energy it took out of me to do all of that within ~3 weeks.

Xdrc, have you read Trachsel's book Phenethylamines? I had to Google Translate huge chunks of it but it's an absolute banger man, you would enjoy it for sure.

Some other random notes that I feel would be fitting for the social thread:

• My mother is trying her first serotonergic psychedelic later this month, I'm going to hang out with her while she takes a very low dose of psilocybin containing fungi. They're ~3 year old Panaeolus cyanescens mushrooms, I tested them about 6 weeks ago and they were still active but maybe around half of their original potency I'd say? Regardless, she tends to hyperrespond to drugs so I'm going to start her at a very very low dose and see how things go. She tasted some peyote tea I made but did not drink a full dose, and she found amanitas to be too brief to be useful as a sleep aid. Kratom she found alright, and Ephedra sinica tea worked quite well for her. I'm very excited to introduce her to serotonergics.
• I accidentally broke my record for how much weed I can smoke in a given period of time, I vaporized 8 grams of distillate via a box mod in 2 days without even intending to, it just sort of happened on accident. It's not unknown for me to smoke a quarter ounce of flower in a sitting, or a few grams of dabs in a day, but this was a record breaking moment for me personally, without a doubt.
• My health issues caused me to have to leave a menial retail job which was a weird hit to my ego, it's been becoming less avoidable to acknowledge the fact that to some degree I am physically disabled, which sucks but I mean, hey what're you gonna do. Like I mentioned earlier, pivoting towards teaching is the move now, I love teaching and I can make a living doing it as well as making a difference by trying to show people that curiosity about the world around you is worth exploring via science and engineering.
• I've been writing quite a bit, a book about the intentional formation of a tactful relationship to drug use and how to best integrate experiences, as well as one I've been working on pertaining to guiding experiences and what I've found to work the best as far as therapeutic models. Initially I was going to write these same ideas out as a handful of zines, but then I realized that the amount of redundancy in the information expressed between them implies that it makes more sense to work on these things as complete, book-length projects.
• As my mental health improved dramatically coming out of the last surgery in the beginning of April, I've regained the passion to do things that I enjoy doing again. That has not just manifested in the form of writing, but also programming, making music (glitch/breakcore/IDM types of stuff), language learning (Irish), photography, and learning to draw to the point where I can attempt to make a psychedelic illuminated manuscript. Think one of those books with gold leaf drawings and borders of celtic knots and illuminated initials, but with a visual language influenced by psychedelia instead. My most perverse fantasy pertaining to the creation of a psychedelically themed illuminated manuscript would be to translate PiHKAL into Irish, in the form of an illuminated manuscript, possibly even in the Gaelic script as well.
• One of my homies acquired a generational supply of memantine (10k doses) and shipped me a large amount of it, so I have at worst a decade's worth of it now. Memantine is a fascinating tool that I've explored to quite a degree so far, but now will be exploring much further. Notably the friend who ordered it has been playing with the RoA, insufflated it appears to come up quicker but last just as long, I don't think either of us are going to attempt IM/IV/Vaporization though, so I may see how tightly I can squeeze it onto blotter (or worst case into gel tabs). I tend to administer memantine in 3-8x the standard dose, but if I'm going to use it routinely (I'm thinking maybe every other week), I am going to experiment with how it fits into mixes. I know it loves MDMA, methamphetamine, DOM and LSD, and it plays nice with miprocin, 25E-NBOH, allylescaline, MGM-15 and a handful of others, but I'm curious to see how it mixes with other dissociatives especially as I've not really dabbled into that realm yet. Memantine has this weird effect where it absolutely annihilates executive dysfunction for me, I'm not sure why it does that.

Yeah it's definitely mild, and I get the sense the @Esperighanto might like it a bit spicier. As I've written ad nauseum on this forum, I love love love 2C-D but I totally get how it's just not enough for a lot of people.

Yeah, you clocked me right on that one for sure. 2C-E-5-EtO is something I've been daydreaming about for half a decade at this point hahaha.

2C-E is awesome too, definitely the more defined, powerful, edgier variant on the alkylated 2C pattern. If I had to pick one or the other I'd probably pick 2C-E because it just goes farther, but 2C-D is so nice to have in the tool belt and I find myself reaching for it more regularly than 2C-E.

I'm curious if you (or xdrc) have ever used 2C-P or 2C-iP? Between those and Trachsel's 2C's (2C-V, 2C-YN, etc.) I'm fascinated at how much of the 2,4,5-trisubstituted phenethylamines are yet to be explored thoroughly. On that topic, I'm also curious for any seasoned psychonauts reading this, what makes you feel like you've adequately familiarized yourself with a drug, and how has that varied between substances?

 

[Didgital]

I feel like you meant "it's a feature, not a bug"?


I agree with that


Yeah it's definitely mild, and I get the sense the @Esperighanto might like it a bit spicier. As I've written ad nauseum on this forum, I love love love 2C-D but I totally get how it's just not enough for a lot of people.

2C-E is awesome too, definitely the more defined, powerful, edgier variant on the alkylated 2C pattern. If I had to pick one or the other I'd probably pick 2C-E because it just goes farther, but 2C-D is so nice to have in the tool belt and I find myself reaching for it more regularly than 2C-E.

I agree wholeheartedly btw. I have taken 2C-E many times, and maybe I'll try it again, but it's too intense, too long lasting, too mind warping to be something I use with any frequency at this point in my life.
The last time I took 2C-E was the day they announced the COVID pandemic. Talk about stressful trips.

I'm starting to agree with Shulgin when he says 2C-D is tofu. I actually do think it has it's own character but like tofu I can eat it frequently and in higher levels without any problems. I've slowed down my D consumption though lately. I was taking it weekly for several months. Now it is more like 1x a month.

 

[Didgital]

what makes you feel like you've adequately familiarized yourself with a drug, and how has that varied between substances?

This is a really good question. I suppose it has to do with how many times I've used a substance and how deeply I've gone with it.

For example, I had smoked DMT 30x before I finally had a true breakthrough (was no longer didgital, had no body, I was a color/shape/texture) but up until that point I had considered myself very familiar with DMT. At this point though, I've probably had 1000x DMT trips, with several breakthroughs so.... I think I've got more to learn but I've got a pretty good idea of the substance at this point.

In regards to your 2nd part of the question, it definitely varies by substance and this is mainly due to duration. DMT being extremely short, I can use every night with very few negative consequences. 2C-E on the other hand, I'd probably end up in an asylum or something if I took it every night. So yeah, shorter acting substances are easier to take more frequently and become familiar with imo. Rarity of the substance can also factor in. I've had 150mg of 4-HO-MIPT for 5 years minus a couple doses out of it. I'm sure if I had obtained grams early on, I would have taken the substance more and be more familiar with it.

Another thing, certain substances that I am very familiar with, I tend to notice the effects MUCH quicker, even if they are just somatic sensations that my body knows it's about to trip. For example, every single time I take LSD, in approximately 5 minutes, i start getting very subtle alerts ie the hairs on back of my neck start to stand up. When I took a thumbprint of AL-LAD (something I'd only taken a handful of times) I did not get those same alerts.
2C-B, I had a good stash when I was young, but then it disappeared for a good 10 years for me. When I finally got some new material, I took 15mg, and in 10 minutes, I knew it was B and a huge shit eating grin appeared on my face.

So there is also something to be said about the body having familiarity with a substance even if you're not conscious of it.

 

[perpetualdawn]

I'm curious if you (or xdrc) have ever used 2C-P or 2C-iP? Between those and Trachsel's 2C's (2C-V, 2C-YN, etc.) I'm fascinated at how much of the 2,4,5-trisubstituted phenethylamines are yet to be explored thoroughly. On that topic, I'm also curious for any seasoned psychonauts reading this, what makes you feel like you've adequately familiarized yourself with a drug, and how has that varied between substances?

I've used 2C-P at very mild doses two times and really liked it. I think I've tried 2mg and 4mg (I used volumetric dosing). It's very long lasting as you know, so it's a big commitment. 2C-P was the first psychedelic I've ever been able to sleep on which really surprised me - normally psychedelics make me wired and sleeping impossible, but on 2C-P I just had the nap feeling was able to easily sleep right in the middle of the trip for about 45mins. On something like acid or a 4-sub tryptamine, even at a tiny dose, I really can't sleep, so this is something novel to me.

I really like the alkylated 2C set: 2C-D, 2C-E, 2C-P. I see them as very much akin in flavour, with 2C-E seeming like the pinnacle of that terrain in terms of character. Of course as we know the duration scales as you add carbons so 2C-D < 2C-E < 2C-P duration wise. I haven't pushed the dosage with 2C-P just because of how long it lasts, so I'm not sure how it compares (personally) to 2C-E in terms of potency, but I get the feeling that 2C-P is more potent at the lower end, but that it might tap out earlier (earlier saturation). This early saturation idea is basically a gut feeling, and probably a digest of stuff I've read over the years on trip reports etc, not fact at all, so I hope no one counts on it when they are measuring out their own 2C-P.

It may be that 2C-P is the real pinnacle if you take the dosage up, I'm not really sure.

I'm curious about 2C-iP as well, and a lot of Trachsel's creations.

 

[Didgital]

2C-P was the first psychedelic I've ever been able to sleep on which really surprised me - normally psychedelics make me wired and sleeping impossible

So, once I accidentally took some DOPr, basically I had just eaten mushrooms and spilled a little DOPr while putting it away. I thought "Hey a few mg can't hurt/wont do much. Boy was I wrong. But like you said, it was very smooth, and I was surprisingly able to sleep on it tho I took a small amount of clonepin at end of trip. I had a DOB trip that I attempted to mute/abort with benzos and the DOB definitely outlasted the benzos.

I had 15mg of 2C-P and I believe I lost it or gave it away after not taking it for 10 years. I thought it was going to be a longer even rougher 2C-E and I hear there are a lot of similarities between the two, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. 2C-E actual trip for me is 8 or 9 hours, but I'm not sleeping til hour 16 at the earliest. The afterglow of 2C-E is the best part imo.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

Ok it finally let me out of the text block that made it look like you were replying to yourself xdrc, sorry about that. I wish they would just let me edit the text formatting directly, but hey, what're you gonna do. Your hunch about how 2C-D may lack the duration necessary to maintain a reopened critical learning period that's of useful length, it makes me wonder if 2C-D-5-EtO would be a more ideal compound. The 5-Ethoxy tweetios were consistently regarded as longer lasting, PiHKAL mentioned a test subject referring to 2C-E-5-EtO as "eternity". ASRI (the Shulgin research institute) also patented one of the 2-substituted tweetios that should make for a less intense and more brief compound, I think it was 2C-B-2-Isopropoxy? Not positive right now, and also ngl, stoned as a statue so typing coherently is a slight bit more difficult than usual.

I've found a certain neutral feeling to exist in mescaline, 3C-P, and DOM, and I wonder if it will be in this TMA-2 once I get around to trying it finally. I also wonder if that same neutralness is something I'll eventually find in 2C-D, 2C-E, DOEt, and other 4-alkylated/alkoxylated phenethylamines. I will inevitably run through trying every 2C/DO/Likely every psychedelic phenethylamine that I can reasonably find synthesis and safety information about. Genuinely sampling as much of the SAR as I reasonably can is ideal for me, so that I can try to feel it out to further inform logical design of novel compounds, and to reflect on the therapeutic models that they are best applied to. Life's just moving slow man, I recently pivoted to aiming to become a teacher since it's an in demand job and I love doing it. It just means that getting back on my feet financially is going to be even slower right now but, hey my country's experiencing a collapse into idiocracy-style fascism, so I'm just trying to stay afloat and be able to afford food, medication for the numerous chronic illnesses, all that shit. Thankfully I've got family and community, but so many people here don't have anything to fall back on and it's fucking heartbreaking and terrifying.

After having only used psilocybin and LSD, I read the entirety of PiHKAL and TiHKAL and the drugs in those books which caught my eyes the most were DOI, 2C-E(-5EtO especially), AL-LAD, 5-MeO-DiPT, DOM, DESOXY, DPT, TMA-2, MEM and the thioscalines. Almost all of those are things that are only accessible via chemistry, but I've been lucky enough to stumble into two of them so far, 5-MeO-DiPT and DOM, and they both proved to be fascinating tools with beneficial aspects I simply had no capacity to predict. A couple of weeks ago an experience involving DOM and datura ointment led to the processing of some trauma from 12 years ago that I expected to never be able to recover from, it was 25mg of DOM insufflated alongside ~6 pinky sized globs of 5mg/mL datura (and henbane) ointment. The neon, counterflip-ish CEVs drew a pastel outline, burning bright of a person in my past wearing the clothes of another person, both of them were responsible for the specific trauma that this strange CEV led to me processing that night. It's what I later addressed with a rolling psychedelic binge, in 3 weeks I think it was 25I-NBOMe, 25B-NBOH, 25E-NBOH, miprocin, DOM, and then LSD until I finally developed any tolerance for reasons I still cannot explain. Very thoroughly managed to experience the catharsis and processing that I was after though, so it was more than worth the kind of absurd amount of energy it took out of me to do all of that within ~3 weeks.

Xdrc, have you read Trachsel's book Phenethylamines? I had to Google Translate huge chunks of it but it's an absolute banger man, you would enjoy it for sure.

Some other random notes that I feel would be fitting for the social thread:

• My mother is trying her first serotonergic psychedelic later this month, I'm going to hang out with her while she takes a very low dose of psilocybin containing fungi. They're ~3 year old Panaeolus cyanescens mushrooms, I tested them about 6 weeks ago and they were still active but maybe around half of their original potency I'd say? Regardless, she tends to hyperrespond to drugs so I'm going to start her at a very very low dose and see how things go. She tasted some peyote tea I made but did not drink a full dose, and she found amanitas to be too brief to be useful as a sleep aid. Kratom she found alright, and Ephedra sinica tea worked quite well for her. I'm very excited to introduce her to serotonergics.
• I accidentally broke my record for how much weed I can smoke in a given period of time, I vaporized 8 grams of distillate via a box mod in 2 days without even intending to, it just sort of happened on accident. It's not unknown for me to smoke a quarter ounce of flower in a sitting, or a few grams of dabs in a day, but this was a record breaking moment for me personally, without a doubt.
• My health issues caused me to have to leave a menial retail job which was a weird hit to my ego, it's been becoming less avoidable to acknowledge the fact that to some degree I am physically disabled, which sucks but I mean, hey what're you gonna do. Like I mentioned earlier, pivoting towards teaching is the move now, I love teaching and I can make a living doing it as well as making a difference by trying to show people that curiosity about the world around you is worth exploring via science and engineering.
• I've been writing quite a bit, a book about the intentional formation of a tactful relationship to drug use and how to best integrate experiences, as well as one I've been working on pertaining to guiding experiences and what I've found to work the best as far as therapeutic models. Initially I was going to write these same ideas out as a handful of zines, but then I realized that the amount of redundancy in the information expressed between them implies that it makes more sense to work on these things as complete, book-length projects.
• As my mental health improved dramatically coming out of the last surgery in the beginning of April, I've regained the passion to do things that I enjoy doing again. That has not just manifested in the form of writing, but also programming, making music (glitch/breakcore/IDM types of stuff), language learning (Irish), photography, and learning to draw to the point where I can attempt to make a psychedelic illuminated manuscript. Think one of those books with gold leaf drawings and borders of celtic knots and illuminated initials, but with a visual language influenced by psychedelia instead. My most perverse fantasy pertaining to the creation of a psychedelically themed illuminated manuscript would be to translate PiHKAL into Irish, in the form of an illuminated manuscript, possibly even in the Gaelic script as well.
• One of my homies acquired a generational supply of memantine (10k doses) and shipped me a large amount of it, so I have at worst a decade's worth of it now. Memantine is a fascinating tool that I've explored to quite a degree so far, but now will be exploring much further. Notably the friend who ordered it has been playing with the RoA, insufflated it appears to come up quicker but last just as long, I don't think either of us are going to attempt IM/IV/Vaporization though, so I may see how tightly I can squeeze it onto blotter (or worst case into gel tabs). I tend to administer memantine in 3-8x the standard dose, but if I'm going to use it routinely (I'm thinking maybe every other week), I am going to experiment with how it fits into mixes. I know it loves MDMA, methamphetamine, DOM and LSD, and it plays nice with miprocin, 25E-NBOH, allylescaline, MGM-15 and a handful of others, but I'm curious to see how it mixes with other dissociatives especially as I've not really dabbled into that realm yet. Memantine has this weird effect where it absolutely annihilates executive dysfunction for me, I'm not sure why it does that.

Yeah, you clocked me right on that one for sure. 2C-E-5-EtO is something I've been daydreaming about for half a decade at this point hahaha.

I'm curious if you (or xdrc) have ever used 2C-P or 2C-iP? Between those and Trachsel's 2C's (2C-V, 2C-YN, etc.) I'm fascinated at how much of the 2,4,5-trisubstituted phenethylamines are yet to be explored thoroughly. On that topic, I'm also curious for any seasoned psychonauts reading this, what makes you feel like you've adequately familiarized yourself with a drug, and how has that varied between substances?

Re: learning Irish

When I went to Ireland this last March, I kept seeing signs on our road trip “Go mall slow” and I always thought for the whole time that it was like, walking at the shopping mall, you’re just meandering…real slow like. And then I said this to my wife on the plane back across the Atlantic and she said, “no, go mall means slow in Irish you idiot!” And I felt very stupid.

Twas a good vacation. Everyone should drive a stick shift through the countryside of Ireland at least once in life.

 

[iom]

I always love the conversations about 2C-X drugs because I love them so much, especially 2C-E. Really 2C-E and mescaline tie for being my favorite psychedelics, thus far. I do have high hopes for 2C-P but have only taken it to 2 mg so far and was also not entirely well for those first two trials. I'm less of a fan of 2C-D overall. For whatever reason, I tend to get worse body load on 2C-D than on 2C-E, and as heavy and serious as the 2C-E experience is for me, it's almost always uplifting and positive for me, unlike say mushrooms.

I still haven't had a full trip since my fall equinox mescaline journey among ancient ruins. I've just been too sick with my withdraw syndrome which unfortunately doesn't play well with psychedelics or really anything that stimulates anabolic metabolim like most forms of exercise.

Lately I'm mostly feeling well, though the rough patches are still harsh. I'm finally getting caught up on some long neglected dental work, which is difficult because my nerves overreact to damage, with enhanced pain and inflammation which can actually cause more destruction. It sucks so bad, but after > 2 years, I'm finally starting to see some small signs that this tapering and withdraw is worth it for my health in the long run.

Depending on how I feel this weekend, I might finally try a full trip for my anniversary with my partner---maybe with some 2C-B being that always feels most gentle on my body as well as my mind. We'll see. I'm hoping that my condition continues to stabilize over the summer, and that between that and getting a bad tooth out, I hope to stop the terrible nerve pain from triggering. I want to continue exploring the 2C-P very badly.

 

[Khacorrat]

I found really fascinating those discussions about the 2C-X series and even more generally the phenetylamines.

So far, I don't had the chance to try those products, only 25I-NBOME once who let me with some vivid memories and a wish to try it again. Also, I'm really sad I'm a way that I was too late when I discover RC's to got the ones like 2C-E and 2C-I who really seems appealing to me.

To explore this class of product, I plan to grow some cacti after the summer and to got some 2C-B so at least I could tell that I tried at least one of the 2C-X!

Thanks too all of you for your contributions, this part of science is really something!

 

[Esperighanto]

The last time I took 2C-E was the day they announced the COVID pandemic. Talk about stressful trips.

Damn dude, when covid happened a local plug who I translated for during acquisitions from suppliers (he was only an anglophone but we were in South Florida) threw me an absolutely absurd amount of shit that he was going to sell at festivals that year, but since they were all canceled I all of a sudden just had literal grocery bags of counterfeit benzo bars, meth addies, pharma grade Ritalin, etc.

I was routinely eating monstrous doses of edibles, and was over a gram deep into my day when the Covid shut down the state I was in. I'm unsure if I've spoken about it here on BL, but I was talking to a former boss of mine (super kickass woman I'll refer to as CBH here), and I got called up to configure a conference room with a really uniquely high-quality set of conference calling gear, as the university presidents of every state university in the state were assembling there in 30 minutes for an emergency meeting. I encountered that former employer CBH there, and she told me to warn my friends and family to leave the state immediately as some serious shit was going down. Talk an ominous thing to hear from an exceptionally serious, straight-laced person while over a gram of THC (orally) deep into the day hahaha. I had just purchased a two-layer Yamaha Electone organ from a thrift store though so I just spent months inside shredding on that thing.

This is a really good question. I suppose it has to do with how many times I've used a substance and how deeply I've gone with it.

For example, I had smoked DMT 30x before I finally had a true breakthrough (was no longer didgital, had no body, I was a color/shape/texture) but up until that point I had considered myself very familiar with DMT. At this point though, I've probably had 1000x DMT trips, with several breakthroughs so.... I think I've got more to learn but I've got a pretty good idea of the substance at this point.

In regards to your 2nd part of the question, it definitely varies by substance and this is mainly due to duration. DMT being extremely short, I can use every night with very few negative consequences. 2C-E on the other hand, I'd probably end up in an asylum or something if I took it every night. So yeah, shorter acting substances are easier to take more frequently and become familiar with imo. Rarity of the substance can also factor in. I've had 150mg of 4-HO-MIPT for 5 years minus a couple doses out of it. I'm sure if I had obtained grams early on, I would have taken the substance more and be more familiar with it.

Another thing, certain substances that I am very familiar with, I tend to notice the effects MUCH quicker, even if they are just somatic sensations that my body knows it's about to trip. For example, every single time I take LSD, in approximately 5 minutes, i start getting very subtle alerts ie the hairs on back of my neck start to stand up. When I took a thumbprint of AL-LAD (something I'd only taken a handful of times) I did not get those same alerts.
2C-B, I had a good stash when I was young, but then it disappeared for a good 10 years for me. When I finally got some new material, I took 15mg, and in 10 minutes, I knew it was B and a huge shit eating grin appeared on my face.

So there is also something to be said about the body having familiarity with a substance even if you're not conscious of it.

I definitely see can see your stance of how a shorter duration on a drug could facilitate less time investment needed to develop familiarity with it, but is it the experience, or the integration and reflection of it's long term cognitive impacts that really matters when cultivating this familiarity? I'm totally unsure and am now asking it as a direct question, just trying to articulate how this question has evolved in my mind over time, if that makes sense. I recently was gifted 20 grams of memantine and for some reason it's twice as potent as the last batch I had. I took 45mg expecting it to me ~4/10 intensity, and it feels more like a 90mg dose of my old batch and that 90mg feeling I'm still dealing with since yesterday is maybe an 8/10 degree of dissociative intoxication. I've tried to balance it out with other shit but have only been able to do so much, so my apologies about grammar/typing. I feel like tolerance also plays a role in how quickly you can get to know a substance, LSD induces a tolerance where even taking it weekly for a couple months, you'll then need to give it a couple weeks of abstinence to fully reset your tolerance, whereas 2C-B, allylescaline, DPT, harmalas, salvia and DMT don't form a tolerance at all, so I imagine familiarity could be developed quicker with those.

I'm working on two book-length projects right now, one is aimed at guiding psychoactive experiences, and the other has the working title of "Tactful Relationships With Drugs", aimed at normal people who use drugs and want to do so in an informed and intentional, controlled, targeted manner. Long before I even had an account on BL, I always noticed your username and associated it with a deep well of experiences in the realm of psychedelia, and I've been following your posts on here for a long time, so I really appreciate the information/perspective you've shared here. The concept of "getting to know a drug" is something I'm really trying to explore, experiment with, and write about in both of these writing projects.

I've used 2C-P at very mild doses two times and really liked it. I think I've tried 2mg and 4mg (I used volumetric dosing). It's very long lasting as you know, so it's a big commitment. 2C-P was the first psychedelic I've ever been able to sleep on which really surprised me - normally psychedelics make me wired and sleeping impossible, but on 2C-P I just had the nap feeling was able to easily sleep right in the middle of the trip for about 45mins. On something like acid or a 4-sub tryptamine, even at a tiny dose, I really can't sleep, so this is something novel to me.

I really like the alkylated 2C set: 2C-D, 2C-E, 2C-P. I see them as very much akin in flavour, with 2C-E seeming like the pinnacle of that terrain in terms of character. Of course as we know the duration scales as you add carbons so 2C-D < 2C-E < 2C-P duration wise. I haven't pushed the dosage with 2C-P just because of how long it lasts, so I'm not sure how it compares (personally) to 2C-E in terms of potency, but I get the feeling that 2C-P is more potent at the lower end, but that it might tap out earlier (earlier saturation). This early saturation idea is basically a gut feeling, and probably a digest of stuff I've read over the years on trip reports etc, not fact at all, so I hope no one counts on it when they are measuring out their own 2C-P.

It may be that 2C-P is the real pinnacle if you take the dosage up, I'm not really sure.

I'm curious about 2C-iP as well, and a lot of Trachsel's creations.

I love that 2C-P is well within the potency range to fit on blotter, I'm shocked that hasn't been a thing yet.

So, once I accidentally took some DOPr, basically I had just eaten mushrooms and spilled a little DOPr while putting it away. I thought "Hey a few mg can't hurt/wont do much. Boy was I wrong. But like you said, it was very smooth, and I was surprisingly able to sleep on it tho I took a small amount of clonepin at end of trip. I had a DOB trip that I attempted to mute/abort with benzos and the DOB definitely outlasted the benzos.

I've done the old "shit, I spilled some and I don't want to waste it so I guess I'll lick it up" thing too many times. 25E-NBOH, 25B-NBOMe, LSD (that one was ~37.5mg I consumed, long 4 days), etizolam, phenazolam, THC-P-O acetate, MDMB-4en-PINACA, MDMB-5F-PINACA (aka 5F-ADB) and potent ethanolic solutions of 3-MeO-PCP and 3-HO-PCP are all things I've done that with. One time the etizolam crystals just puffed into my open mouth, that shit was nutty.

Is it abnormal for people to be able to sleep on psychs? Many of my friends and I love acid dreams, ayahuasca naps are very popular, mushroom naps are too. As far as DOB goes, a 5.25mg dose had me hit some benzos to downmodulate it as my blood pressure and heart rate was super concerning, but DOC I pushed up towards 8-10mg (maybe 12? I'd have to dig up old notes) and it was totally serene and gentle on my body in a way that DOB didn't only avoid, but acted as a polar opposite to. DOB is fucking brutal dude, I can't exceed 4.5mg of it, and my fiance can't exceed ~2mg of it without us getting absolutely punished by that shit. DOB has still granted me some profoundly transformative experiences, but it's just a taxing one on the old meatsuit, if that makes sense. Klonopin can help, but my longest DOB experience was 104 total hours (didn't sleep, didn't eat). It was turning down 45-50 hours after the initial 4.5mg dose, and then I smoked almost 9mg of MDMB-4en-PINACA in the form of 45 tabs of 200mcg-per-tab blotter, which I would fold up into a bowl and smoke like it was weed over a series of twisted copper screens to keep it from falling through the neck of the bowl. Nothing could turn it down really, but I just rode it out because I know that DOx's are for some reason virtually nonresponsive to antipsychotics, benzos, anything one would turn to as a tripkiller. I wonder how buspirone would effect it though, 5HT1a positive allosteric modulation tends to have a downstream effect of downmodulating 5HT2a activity, so it may be worth testing.

The afterglow of 2C-E is the best part imo.

I'm so glad to hear someone else say that sometimes a psychedelic's most useful period is the afterglow, I very much feel like that as it pertains to LSD. I also found 3C-P to strongly resemble a ~14 hour version of the LSD afterglow, but with the most intense pro-sexual effects I've ever felt, and some more phenethylamine-y visuals than I'd see from LSD.

Twas a good vacation. Everyone should drive a stick shift through the countryside of Ireland at least once in life.

The Irish word bóithrín has no direct English translation but it refers to what was once typically a walking path for livestock, and nowadays it seems to typically be for those rural dirt roads that are allegedly 2-way but only have enough space for a single car in any practical context. There's an enormous amount of words that help to expand perspective (through the lens of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis at least) which I did not expect to encounter in another Indo-European language, it seems like Irish is quite a bit in its own league though as far as IE descended languages go.

Depending on how I feel this weekend, I might finally try a full trip for my anniversary with my partner---maybe with some 2C-B being that always feels most gentle on my body as well as my mind. We'll see. I'm hoping that my condition continues to stabilize over the summer, and that between that and getting a bad tooth out, I hope to stop the terrible nerve pain from triggering. I want to continue exploring the 2C-P very badly.

I tend to trip whenever I'm distressed or in pain (I really just trip every time my tolerance goes back down) but after some recent surgeries I would use LSD within a few days out, regardless of the iodine melting a 3x5 inch patch of skin on my back off (could see muscle fibers' definition, it was rough) and an incision from my sternum to my pelvis as well as a separate incision for a drain. I still took a large dose of LSD (I would estimate it to be ~450-500ug in total) and watched a series of interviews, took notes about ways I want to develop personally and participate more in civil services, quite a nice time. I could see though how that state could be a bad time to trip. I also really adore tripping while watching horror movies or researching genuinely horrific and macabre shit, so maybe I'm just a freak in that way hahaha. I've got this section in a book I'm working on (working title is "Tactful Relationships With Drugs") about how unique I find the intersection of hallucinogens and horror films as a tool for exploring the nature of catharsis and continuing to live with a smile on your face in a world so deadset on turning it into a frown.

To explore this class of product, I plan to grow some cacti after the summer and to got some 2C-B so at least I could tell that I tried at least one of the 2C-X!

Thanks too all of you for your contributions, this part of science is really something!

Growing cacti is a fantastic hobby, I'm glad you're picking it up! If you get into Lophophoras at any point, don't sleep on diffusa, fricii alberto-vojtechii or koehresii as they all contribute a fascinating ensemble effect to williamsii/other phenethylamines, but are also fascinatingly unique and high quality stimulants when taken on their own imo. I hope you also find the opportunity to contribute experiential and cultivation reports to help, community driven citizen science is something that we all (collectively, as humans) should be hopping on more and more. If you're interested in it, let me know and I'll try to figure out how to get a thread up for people running experiments so we can try to do some genuine data collection.

Sorry again if this post is a mess of typos, run-on sentences, atrocious grammar, etc., I am unintentionally balls deep in a memantine trip (is a disso experience called a trip? Idrk) and it makes articulation exceptionally challenging in this dose range.

 

[azurelimousine]

30mg 4-HO-MiPT intramuscular is a quick boost to the goose I don't mind sayin'.

 

[azurelimousine]

Growing cacti is a fantastic hobby, I'm glad you're picking it up! If you get into Lophophoras at any point, don't sleep on diffusa, fricii alberto-vojtechii or koehresii as they all contribute a fascinating ensemble effect to williamsii/other phenethylamines, but are also fascinatingly unique and high quality stimulants when taken on their own imo. I hope you also find the opportunity to contribute experiential and cultivation reports to help, community driven citizen science is something that we all (collectively, as humans) should be hopping on more and more. If you're interested in it, let me know and I'll try to figure out how to get a thread up for people running experiments so we can try to do some genuine data collection.

I've been looking into taking that up as well. I understand it to be something you need to dig your heels into, put the time in and everything but I've recently given up my hobby of daily drinking and, well, it sounds more interesting than growing mushrooms and would get me outta this room full of dissembled electronics, loose cables, all the Tetsuo the Iron Man sort of stuff piling up from the other hobby I've picked up. Which is building synthesizers and stuff, not Japanese techno-horror. Figure its worth goin right into lophophoras? I'm up in canada, but not out west where I imagine the climate to be more suitable.

 

[Didgital]

I've been looking into taking that up as well. I understand it to be something you need to dig your heels into, put the time in and everything but I've recently given up my hobby of daily drinking and, well, it sounds more interesting than growing mushrooms and would get me outta this room full of dissembled electronics, loose cables, all the Tetsuo the Iron Man sort of stuff piling up from the other hobby I've picked up. Which is building synthesizers and stuff, not Japanese techno-horror. Figure its worth goin right into lophophoras? I'm up in canada, but not out west where I imagine the climate to be more suitable.

I highly recommend growing cacti! It is very rewarding. It took me approx 4 years, but im at the point where i take 4-5 foot cuttings each year now which i either give away or just replant.

Ive never actually eaten one Ive grown, but i will always have mescaline for the rest of my life. I sit with them for close to an hour everyday, its a lot of fun to leave for a week or two and come back and see its growth

I also like cacti because working with them makes the trip more special whereas 2c-b or mdma im taking a pill.

This ones my fav, its growing FAT it actually split

 

[Cream Gravy?]

I highly recommend growing cacti! It is very rewarding. It took me approx 4 years, but im at the point where i take 4-5 foot cuttings each year now which i either give away or just replant.

Ive never actually eaten one Ive grown, but i will always have mescaline for the rest of my life. I sit with them for close to an hour everyday, its a lot of fun to leave for a week or two and come back and see its growth

I also like cacti because working with them makes the trip more special whereas 2c-b or mdma im taking a pill.

This ones my fav, its growing FAT it actually split

Do you live in a relatively arid environment? I want to start some cacti now that I’m moved into a bigger home I plan to stay in, but it is horribly horribly humid and rainy here, especially in summer. I have a large garage with rooms and a shop to work with now if need be. I’m ready to finally move into the happy experimental phase of my thirties I think

 

[Didgital]

I do, I live in western colorado, they do love it here, but we don't have the longest seasons especially the higher elevations. That said, I've seen some amazing gardens in very humid places like North Carolina or Oregon. They actually like water a lot, during the peak growing season I probably water 2-3x a week.

If you are seriously looking at getting started, I have a friend who has an entire greenhouse of cacti he's taking down so he can grow food. Top notch genetics.

 

[Didgital]

Figure its worth goin right into lophophoras?

IMO no. Lophs are 10x more finicky, take 10x longer to grow a single dose, more difficult to propagate, and... at this point the breeders have bred trichocereus/echinopsis varieties that are MORE potent than peyote in regards to mescaline content. I think they are trying to breed high lophophine content varieties atm.

Don't get me wrong they are fun to grow and watch but they a lot more difficult, and less materially rewarding.

Main advantage of peyote is it's very diverse alkaloid profile. It contains over 50 different alkaloids while echinopsis are generally more bland in their alkaloid profile. In peyote, mescaline is the main alkaloid, but it still only makes up 30% of the total alkaloid weight in the plant. I imagine with echinopsis the mescaline ratio to other alkaloids is much higher as well.

 

[PtahTek]

i like cid. didnt think i would, anymore, but do.
the visuals (mostly "dancing" shadows, webs of fabric (quantum shit...? ) and lots of introspection - which is my main goal, so....

I would say k has been - so far - the most intense, short lived memorable experience i have had, though.that shit stuck with me. an alchemy happened that is (i feel) irreversible. i am so grateful for that experience and dont think I need anything else from it at this point.

the shadows are nice. there is important content there i feel. I don't hear voices but they communicate with me in a visual way. i freakin love it.

heah yall be safe
noob on this by most substance measurable metrics but have "tripped sober when falling asleep with a stone in my hand. wasnt much to see after that. didnt know it was time to turn inward. lol

 

[azurelimousine]

IMO no. Lophs are 10x more finicky, take 10x longer to grow a single dose, more difficult to propagate, and... at this point the breeders have bred trichocereus/echinopsis varieties that are MORE potent than peyote in regards to mescaline content. I think they are trying to breed high lophophine content varieties atm.

Don't get me wrong they are fun to grow and watch but they a lot more difficult, and less materially rewarding.

Main advantage of peyote is it's very diverse alkaloid profile. It contains over 50 different alkaloids while echinopsis are generally more bland in their alkaloid profile. In peyote, mescaline is the main alkaloid, but it still only makes up 30% of the total alkaloid weight in the plant. I imagine with echinopsis the mescaline ratio to other alkaloids is much higher as well.

Yeah that's sorta what my understanding of it was but good to have it confirmed.