🌟🌟 Social 🌟🌟 PD Social Thread 2022-2025 v. Year of the Phenethylamine

[Pissed_and_messed]

it actually even looks like DMT

 

[Cream Gravy?]

Took me a long time but finally viewing it more like a medication (setting timers for next dose and not exceeding my scheduled dose) has been the key.

Over the past 14 months I've realized the same thing. It's a stabilizing medication unless you have true ability to mediate dosing... I'm jealous of my wife. She takes a fat scoop after work and a fat one before bed and that's it, does plenty for her. In my case I use it to stabilize my mood at work.


ALD-52 is classic. It's hard to say why or how, but I recall it always feeling much 'cleaner' and positive than other lysergimides.

 

[xammy]

30 days sober today. Feeling pretty good about myself right now. Gonna be drinking and vaping weed at nights soon though, just needed a break. I'll have a blood test on Thursday to see how 30 days without alcohol shows in the liver tests just for curiosity.

 

[SuperPsych]

Over the past 14 months I've realized the same thing. It's a stabilizing medication unless you have true ability to mediate dosing... I'm jealous of my wife. She takes a fat scoop after work and a fat one before bed and that's it, does plenty for her. In my case I use it to stabilize my mood at work.


ALD-52 is classic. It's hard to say why or how, but I recall it always feeling much 'cleaner' and positive than other lysergimides.

I've known a couple of people like that who can take kratom fairly regularly but are able to moderate and not get addicted. It's hard not to get jealous.

The ALD-52 was nice although not as intense as either of us were hoping. Started off taking 100ug but ended up taking a total of 250ug throughout the night. Felt pretty similar to LSD but with very minimal visuals and a bit of a calmer headspace. Overall it was a pleasant trip, just not what I was expecting. I do enjoy the stuff though. I was surprised how quickly I was able to fall asleep on it. Fell asleep 6 hours after the last dose. Was still feeling pretty stimulated from it but as soon as I closed my eyes I was able to drift off to sleep easily

 

[Pfafffed]

Yeah, that's how it was for me for fifteen years. I have yet to develop any addiction to it, but this year I have started to get mild withdrawals the next day. It makes zero sense given my infrequent use and very low dose. I don't understand, but it's annoying as hell. I've had to radically scale back my use, which sucks because I found it to be quite helpful when I did use it. Now I have to approach it the way I would alcohol in evaluating the risk of a hangover robbing me of the next day.

 

[pharmakos]

30 days sober today. Feeling pretty good about myself right now. Gonna be drinking and vaping weed at nights soon though, just needed a break. I'll have a blood test on Thursday to see how 30 days without alcohol shows in the liver tests just for curiosity.

Good job brother

 

[pharmakos]

I've known a couple of people like that who can take kratom fairly regularly but are able to moderate and not get addicted. It's hard not to get jealous.

The ALD-52 was nice although not as intense as either of us were hoping. Started off taking 100ug but ended up taking a total of 250ug throughout the night. Felt pretty similar to LSD but with very minimal visuals and a bit of a calmer headspace. Overall it was a pleasant trip, just not what I was expecting. I do enjoy the stuff though. I was surprised how quickly I was able to fall asleep on it. Fell asleep 6 hours after the last dose. Was still feeling pretty stimulated from it but as soon as I closed my eyes I was able to drift off to sleep easily

Kratom is self-limiting for me due to the gastric issues it causes. Can take it two days in a row but after that I don't even crave it, due to my body knowing how much my stomach and bowels are gonna regret it.

 

[Pfafffed]

Anybody else get weird heart stuff in the days or weeks after dosing 2C-B? I've always had a bit of an occasional heart flutter (my childhood doctor told me it was nothing to be worried about - my grandmother had the same thing, and it was never an issue for her.) Mitral valve prolapse iirc. It happens maybe once every 3-6 months very briefly, then I forget about it.

In the week after taking 2C-B (usually quite a few days later,) I always seem to get something that feels quite similar. It could be the same thing, or not, but it's remarkably consistent. I initially dismissed it, but it's happened pretty much every time I've taken 2C-B over ten years, and I only take it 1-2x a year on average. I usually get several stutters or flutters in that week, which is atypical. This latest time made me sit up and pay attention, because I normally am not bothered by them, but one of them was stronger than usual and made my vision go immediately dark and I felt like I was losing consciousness. That's never happened before, so probably going to get that checked out. But yeah, pretty much exclusively happens after just 2C-B. It's possible that it did after bk-2C-B, as well, but I can't remember that far back.

 

[pharmakos]

Anybody else get weird heart stuff in the days or weeks after dosing 2C-B? I've always had a bit of an occasional heart flutter (my childhood doctor told me it was nothing to be worried about - my grandmother had the same thing, and it was never an issue for her.) Mitral valve prolapse iirc. It happens maybe once every 3-6 months very briefly, then I forget about it.

In the week after taking 2C-B (usually quite a few days later,) I always seem to get something that feels quite similar. It could be the same thing, or not, but it's remarkably consistent. I initially dismissed it, but it's happened pretty much every time I've taken 2C-B over ten years, and I only take it 1-2x a year on average. I usually get several stutters or flutters in that week, which is atypical. This latest time made me sit up and pay attention, because I normally am not bothered by them, but one of them was stronger than usual and made my vision go immediately dark and I felt like I was losing consciousness. That's never happened before, so probably going to get that checked out. But yeah, pretty much exclusively happens after just 2C-B. It's possible that it did after bk-2C-B, as well, but I can't remember that far back.

The mitral valve has a lot of 5HT-2B receptors, and phenethylamine psychedelics tend to be pretty potent 5HT-2B agonists. And some Googling tells me that the 5HT-2B receptor is upregulated in people with mitral valve prolapse. Chronic overstimulation of the 5HT-2B receptor can lead to valvulopathy in otherwise healthy individuals. Since you have a preexisting mitral valve issue, I don't think you should mess around with phenethylamines anymore. Sorry bud. Phenethylamine empathogens like MDMA also tend to have this same effect, btw.

Do you take any medications for your heart?

 

[xammy]

Liver tests came back. A month ago ALT was 101 after almost daily drinking, and now 30 days without a drop of alcohol it went to 46 which is in the normal range (0-50)
Gamma-glutamyltransferase (GGT) was ridiculously high at 229 but dropped down to 71.
CDT, Bilirubin, Alkaline phosphatase, Aspartate transaminase were all within normal range.
Even one month without alcohol seems to do wonders for the liver.

 

[arrall]

Liver tests came back. A month ago ALT was 101 after almost daily drinking, and now 30 days without a drop of alcohol it went to 46 which is in the normal range (0-50)
Gamma-glutamyltransferase (GGT) was ridiculously high at 229 but dropped down to 71.
CDT, Bilirubin, Alkaline phosphatase, Aspartate transaminase were all within normal range.
Even one month without alcohol seems to do wonders for the liver.

That’s incredible, and you should be proud of yourself for that.
What have you found to be most helpful for your success here?

 

[Pfafffed]

The mitral valve has a lot of 5HT-2B receptors, and phenethylamine psychedelics tend to be pretty potent 5HT-2B agonists. And some Googling tells me that the 5HT-2B receptor is upregulated in people with mitral valve prolapse. Chronic overstimulation of the 5HT-2B receptor can lead to valvulopathy in otherwise healthy individuals. Since you have a preexisting mitral valve issue, I don't think you should mess around with phenethylamines anymore. Sorry bud. Phenethylamine empathogens like MDMA also tend to have this same effect, btw.

Do you take any medications for your heart?

No, I don't take any medications. It's a common condition (like ~5% of people have it) and typically requires no treatment. It can be an issue later in life, where prevalence in the general population increases to ~13%. Sasha Shulgin had to have a surgery for it in his 80s iirc, but that's not unusual for people in that age group.

What's interesting about this to me is that 2C-B is definitely very selective for 5-HT2b (more so than 2a and 2c iirc!) But the ki values for many other psychedelics are nothing to sniff at. Psilocybin and 5-MeO-DMT are also noteworthy agonists at that site. But no other psychedelics seem to be connected to whatever is going on.

More to the point, I'm pretty sure that 5-HT2b cardiotoxicity is caused by chronic exposure to the agonist, and that the exposure causes the proliferation of cell growth on the valves. I don't think that's the sort of thing that would present after acute exposure, and then resolve. It's more like something that would appear after a few months of regular use, and which may or may not result in permanent damage. That just doesn't track with symptoms from acute exposure to a single annual exposure to one specific drug with a very short half life several days later, symptoms that resolve almost immediately and then don't return. So if there's something going on (and it looks like that may be the case) it could maybe be due to 2C-B's 5-HT2b agonism, but it doesn't sound like it's related to the typical way its cardiotoxicity manifests. And I don't know why it would just be 2C-B and not any other phenethylamine/amphetamine or tryptamine/lysergamide (the classic valvulopathy culprit.)

So far, the only study I've come across on the topic did find that regular MDMA users were found to have signs of valvulopathy, but I'm just a tiny bit dubious about that one. I've never seen it reported anywhere else, and that seems like the kind of thing that would come up.

 

[Pfafffed]

Liver tests came back. A month ago ALT was 101 after almost daily drinking, and now 30 days without a drop of alcohol it went to 46 which is in the normal range (0-50)
Gamma-glutamyltransferase (GGT) was ridiculously high at 229 but dropped down to 71.
CDT, Bilirubin, Alkaline phosphatase, Aspartate transaminase were all within normal range.
Even one month without alcohol seems to do wonders for the liver

That's awesome, Xammy! Congrats on the rapid improvements!

 

[deficiT]

30 days sober today. Feeling pretty good about myself right now. Gonna be drinking and vaping weed at nights soon though, just needed a break. I'll have a blood test on Thursday to see how 30 days without alcohol shows in the liver tests just for curiosity.

I would suggest not to continue consuming alcohol. Its the worst drug I know of. 30 days is really awesome though, wish you the best.

 

[paltatomate]

30 days sober today. Feeling pretty good about myself right now. Gonna be drinking and vaping weed at nights soon though, just needed a break. I'll have a blood test on Thursday to see how 30 days without alcohol shows in the liver tests just for curiosity.

now you got your results back and saw how your physical health improved.
are you still keen on drinking and vaping?
or do those blood tests changed something?

 

[pharmakos]

No, I don't take any medications. It's a common condition (like ~5% of people have it) and typically requires no treatment. It can be an issue later in life, where prevalence in the general population increases to ~13%. Sasha Shulgin had to have a surgery for it in his 80s iirc, but that's not unusual for people in that age group.

What's interesting about this to me is that 2C-B is definitely very selective for 5-HT2b (more so than 2a and 2b iirc!) But the ki values for many other psychedelics are nothing to sniff at. Psilocybin and 5-MeO-DMT are also noteworthy agonists at that site. But no other psychedelics seem to be connected to whatever is going on.

More to the point, I'm pretty sure that 5-HT2b cardiotoxicity is caused by chronic exposure to the agonist, and that the exposure causes the proliferation of cell growth on the valves. I don't think that's the sort of thing that would present after acute exposure, and then resolve. It's more like something that would appear after a few months of regular use, and which may or may not result in permanent damage. That just doesn't track with symptoms from acute exposure to a single annual exposure to one specific drug with a very short half life several days later, symptoms that resolve almost immediately and then don't return. So if there's something going on (and it looks like that may be the case) it could maybe be due to 2C-B's 5-HT2b agonism, but it doesn't sound like it's related to the typical way its cardiotoxicity manifests. And I don't know why it would just be 2C-B and not any other phenethylamine/amphetamine or tryptamine/lysergamide (the classic valvulopathy culprit.)

So far, the only study I've come across on the topic did find that regular MDMA users were found to have signs of valvulopathy, but I'm just a tiny bit dubious about that one. I've never seen it reported anywhere else, and that seems like the kind of thing that would come up.

Sasha's surgery was on his aortic valve, but yeah the aortic valve also has a lot of 5HT-2B receptors.

Very interesting that it's only 2C-B that does it to you. Hm. Maybe it produces a unique metabolite? Tho you'd think 2C-C and 2C-I at the very least would be metabolized in the same way.

 

[Pfafffed]

Sasha's surgery was on his aortic valve, but yeah the aortic valve also has a lot of 5HT-2B receptors.

Very interesting that it's only 2C-B that does it to you. Hm. Maybe it produces a unique metabolite? Tho you'd think 2C-C and 2C-I at the very least would be metabolized in the same way.

I can't really speak to those. I've had 2C-C three times in 30 years (without noticing anything,) and I've never got around to 2C-I. That's pretty much the full extent of my experience with the rest of the halogenated close analogs.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

Happy Thanksgiving all. Eat till you wanna puke and be thankful

 

[SuperPsych]

My best friend has always wanted to try 2C-I but never got the chance. I only got to try it 2 or 3 times and I loved it. I love 2C-B but I think I prefer 2C-I as a psychedelic, although 2C-B has great utility in ways that 2C-I doesn't. Anyways, I mention my friend because I think I'm gonna get some 2C-I to try. Found some but its outrageously expensive. But as a drug nerd, if someone got me a substance that was at the top of my "want to try" list, it'd be the most meaningful gift ever. I hope that it's still available when I get paid. I haven't tried it since high school, so 12 years or so.

 

[iom]

More to the point, I'm pretty sure that 5-HT2b cardiotoxicity is caused by chronic exposure to the agonist, and that the exposure causes the proliferation of cell growth on the valves. I don't think that's the sort of thing that would present after acute exposure, and then resolve. It's more like something that would appear after a few months of regular use, and which may or may not result in permanent damage.

I have been doing a fair amount of research lately into 5-HT2B for my own purposes. Like 5-HT2A it is expressed in many different tissues throughout the body. Furthermore, the problem of "5-HT2B-induced fibrosis" appears to be capable of manifesting in many tissues as well, not just in the heart valves. Of course, the heart valves are particularly sensitive to the problem with potentially serious consequences, so they get the most attention.

Anyway, I came across a paper which seems to speak directly to the involvement of 5-HT2B in mitral valve prolapse. I think those of us who love psychedelics secretly hope that using only occasionally is safe for everyone, even those susceptible to valvulopathy from chronic use of 5-HT2B agonists. In reality, this is mostly unknown because most human data on this has involved things used chronically, as is the pattern with most pharma drugs.

I will say that I strongly suspect that even a single dose of psychedelic induces substantial remodeling in many kinds of tissues. I don't think most of the the body normally sees such high intensity of serotonin activity as when psychedelics are taken. Perhaps the only thing comparable is the high levels of serotonin released in the immediate vicinity of a recent flesh wound. Here, serotonin plays an essential role in responding to the damage all the way up to and including making the epigenetic changes that kick off the process of regeneration and remodeling. This is where is gets much more complicated because we must understand that our cells are quite intelligent for better or worse and the results may depend a lot on the individual person and the particular pattern of stimulation.