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Cloudy said:
Ah, you are right about the j values I posted being for a conjugated monocyclic polyene.

Ok, so, j=1, 2, ..., n for a linear acyclic polyene

Either way, I don't see how j can change when its the same compound, if n= # of carbons atoms in the conjugated polyene. I can grasp the idea if it didn't explicitly say, "with n being the number of carbon atoms in the conjugated polyene". I also understand that the anti-bonding orbitals and bonding orbitals can have a variety of positions relative to another orbital creating nodes, which alter the over all energy level. I just can't see how j is anything but constant for a given molecule. I mean, you have 6 carbons in 1,3,5-hexatriene, no matter the number of nodes there are in a molecule at the given time. If n = the number of nodes, it would make sense to me, as you'd have 6 different node position possibilities, giving 6 different values for j, which makes sense for the 6 varying possible energy levels.
Click to expand...
Well it's because you have these different orbitals that are interacting with each other. Now this interaction can be constructive or destructive. With a simple single atomic orbital interaction with a single atomic orbital, two molecular orbitals will be formed a bonding and antibonding orbital, from both constructive and destructive interference between the two atomic orbital wavefunctions.

With a conjugated system as you are considering, you have multiple different orbitals all interacting with each other at the same time. So one must take into account the different combinations of constructive and destructive interference. Therefore there will result, from the linear combination of the basis set orbitals, for example one orbital with say j=1 which is essentially the all bonding interactions between the pi orbitals.

If you have 6 pi orbitals interacting in a conjugated system, 6 HMO MUST result from these interactions. As you vary the value of j you obtain a HMO function of different energies, they are different energies due to the different combinations of constructive and destructive interactions between the atomic p orbitals in the conjugated system.

edit: heh and I am blitzed right now so this attempted explanation is probably chock full of errors and misconceptions..



n= the number of carbons in the conjugated system and therefore is equivalent to the number of pi orbitals involved. at the highest value of j, there IS essentially 6 nodes for benzene
 
what'd you nom nom nom? :D
smokin a jay right now.. eyes 80% shut.. falling asleep soon... 7.36am, my sleeping patterns are fucked again, I BLAME HOLIDAY SEASON and my frequent drug abuse.

No problem Cloudy :P

edit : google defines blitzed as "completely innebriated."
it asked if i meant define blazed :D
 
im too baked to listen to megadeth.. and I wanna go to sleep, not start headbanging :P
not that I could though, yep.. falling asleep now, eyes cant stay op....en.. zzzzz
 
Leftley said:
what'd you nom nom nom? :D
smokin a jay right now.. eyes 80% shut.. falling asleep soon... 7.36am, my sleeping patterns are fucked again, I BLAME HOLIDAY SEASON and my frequent drug abuse.

No problem Cloudy :P

edit : google defines blitzed as "completely innebriated."
it asked if i meant define blazed :D
Click to expand...

hehe and blazed Is actually what I mean, cause I am not drunk..
 
adrian89987 said:
Well it's because you have these different orbitals that are interacting with each other. Now this interaction can be constructive or destructive. With a simple single atomic orbital interaction with a single atomic orbital, two molecular orbitals will be formed a bonding and antibonding orbital, from both constructive and destructive interference between the two atomic orbital wavefunctions.

With a conjugated system as you are considering, you have multiple different orbitals all interacting with each other at the same time. So one must take into account the different combinations of constructive and destructive interference. Therefore there will result, from the linear combination of the basis set orbitals, for example one orbital with say j=1 which is essentially the all bonding interactions between the pi orbitals.

If you have 6 pi orbitals interacting in a conjugated system, 6 HMO MUST result from these interactions. As you vary the value of j you obtain a HMO function of different energies, they are different energies due to the different combinations of constructive and destructive interactions between the atomic p orbitals in the conjugated system.

edit: heh and I am blitzed right now so this attempted explanation is probably chock full of errors and misconceptions..



n= the number of carbons in the conjugated system and therefore is equivalent to the number of pi orbitals involved. at the highest value of j, there IS essentially 6 nodes for benzene
Click to expand...

so in the lowest energy form, where there are no nodes, there are 0 carbons in the conjugated system, as we are only talking about 2pz (pi orbitals), so n=0? j = 0

0 8 0 8 0 8
8 0 8 0 8 8

this representing the lowest energy state with no nodes.

n=1, j= 0, 1; representing 1 formed overlapping orbital

0 8 0 0 8 0
8 0 8 8 0 8

or am I still not grasping the idea of what j really is.
 
In the lowest energy pi MO, where j=1, n will still be equal to 6 for benzene. But there will be no nodes.

Huckel molecular orbital theory is used to determine the relative energies of the different pi molecular orbitals in a conjugated system. J is just an integer, each value of j represents a different energy pi molecular orbital(s). The number of different j values depends on the number of carbon atoms contained in the conjugated pi framework due to the different combinations of the pi orbitals.

When looking at a particular conjugated system you will have a set number of carbon atoms, 6 for benzene. So n=6 for every single pi molecular orbital that results from conjugation.


This webpage gives a good explanation:
http://burton.chem.ox.ac.uk/Teaching/handout_complete.pdf
 
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ahhh, ok I was interpreting the series as being added together to get j, thats why I thought j would be constant.

Jesus christ, I always get stuck on the most silly shit. Though diving my brain so far into it really has helped put a firm grasp on the concept at large.
 
Hah yea man it happens especially the further you get into the physical chem, but then it makes so much sense once you realize. With quantum chem a varying integer like that is usually there to represent each possible wavefunction and so must be taken one instance at a time.

You'll learn SO MUCH from that advanced organic book. I learned more in my one semester of advanced orgo than I did from most previous chem classes combined
 
LSDMDMA&9142651 said:
i know what ya mean
except
when i think PCP
i think neurotoxin
and big lurch
now im down to do meth, and thats neurotoxic, but that looks fun as shit. PCP doesnt look liek its worth the brain damage from neurotoxicity. i dont want to end up liek beef n brokly, althuogh hes cool so who knows
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kjj4dWP-_E8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afTviKa8biM&feature=related
i riked the football factory a rot
Click to expand...

LOL yeah you always risk the chance of acheiving B&B-dom while dusting
Was watching this earlier, it's awesome "OMG 1600 UNIT OF DOPAMINE"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at3Sg6qvgTE
 
Woah, I think I might have had that breakthrough I've been looking for today. I'm gonna have to consider this carefully and fully evaluate whether I can/should trust this realization, and try to gain a grasp on its philosophical consequences which are far reaching and profound. I don't want to talk about it yet, but its pretty heavy stuff. (nothing novel or really far out there mind you, but pretty revolutionary for me/my world view)

Chemical assistance? I was on JWH-018 (and GBL and caffeine), taking a walk at the time and thinking about things like I always do...
 
Yowsers, I'm fucked as all fuck right fucking now....Cognac, GHB, cocaine and ketamine...Strangely, at my work christmas party too; my boss supplied the coke, my assistant manager A (who is actually an old doofing buddy) supplied the ketamine and the alchohol was on me ;)

Fucking awesome, I work in a place where we sell a lot of second hand stuff (I am in the personal finance/loans/pawn part) and we are having a right jam with all the instruments, congas, guitars, mandolins, kazzoo's, the lot!:):)

Me and A are now adjourning to smoke a spliff and drop some acid...Hedonism FTW! :):):)

Love ya'll, merry christmas, be safe and enjoy :) <3 :) <3
 
alantis360 said:
lma are you prescribed amps yo?
Click to expand...
possibly
and who posted the world's most dangerous drug thing
i watched that whole documentary a long time ago, before i got into amps, i should watch it again.
funny thing is
releasing profile (from wiki..)
d-meth NA 12.3 DA 24.5 5HT 736
d-amp NA 7.07 DA 24.8 5HT 1,765
lower number=moar released
so if i get it right meth BARELY puts out moar dopamine than d-amp?
i guess the seemingly ridiculous addictiveness compared with regular amp comes from ROA?
ROA is the most attractive thing about meth to me, that you can smoke it..
 
Yeah I have my homemade weed rum, and oz of some nice "Champagne" strain, and some 4-AcO-DMT in mind for some X-mas hedonism. Any XXX-DMT ;) makes me feel like X-mas morning, so it's a fine time to take some, I feel. Keep the christmas flow going all year 'round PD!
 
LSDMDMA&9143292 said:
possibly
and who posted the world's most dangerous drug thing
i watched that whole documentary a long time ago, before i got into amps, i should watch it again.
funny thing is
releasing profile (from wiki..)
d-meth NA 12.3 DA 24.5 5HT 736
d-amp NA 7.07 DA 24.8 5HT 1,765
lower number=moar released
so if i get it right meth BARELY puts out moar dopamine than d-amp?
i guess the seemingly ridiculous addictiveness compared with regular amp comes from ROA?
ROA is the most attractive thing about meth to me, that you can smoke it..
Click to expand...

LMA meth is really nothing like d amp in my opinion. Its a whole new beast and a whole new level. I think it has to do with its sertonin release.

I wouldnt dwell on it much just be happy with your d amp.
 
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