Theta:
The 5-MeO-MiPT went good too. I rode my bike for like the first hour and a half until my legs started feeling a bit heavy and I started feeling a bit uncoordinated. I think the 5-MeO-MiPT was a bit more visual than the ALD-52, but on the ALD-52 I had more of a tendency to get lost in my thoughts. The 5-MeO-MiPT visuals felt very earthy and there was an oil painting sort of effect. There was a bit more body load with the 5-MeO-MiPT and it felt a bit frantic and discombobulated at a couple points, but that might have also been the fact that I had twice as much espresso the morning of.
Whereas I actually thought about a couple fairly dark things on the ALD-52, the experience itself never felt dark. The 5-MeO-MiPT seemed a bit more intrinsically strange and a little dark, even though I never explicitly dwelled on any negative ideas. Being among people on the 5-MeO-MiPT also felt somewhat uncomfortable, which was totally the opposite of how the ALD-52 felt. Overall the ALD-52 felt like a much richer experience and seemed to have more transformative potential.
The 5-MeO-MiPT body high was a quite sharp and distinctive feeling in my extremities. The ALD-52 body feeling was less overt and was more of a supreme relaxation, which I actually preferred. Taking a hot shower on the ALD-52 felt amazing as well. I actually read something you posted about 5-MeO-MiPT's duration being 10-11 hours and that ended up being right on the money for me. Although it was fairly subtle after the first five or so hours, it took about 11 hours before I was sure the experience was over. That's pretty cool that the overall 5-MeO-MiPT duration doesn't change much when vaped, I definitely want to try that soon.
One thing that kind of held me back from using psychedelics the past few years was that in my sober state I had accumulated all these irrational thoughts that I projected onto the psychedelic experience. I think it was mainly my abuse of dissociatives, which I think truly are drugs that induce psychotic patterns of thought, that led to this. However once I'm actually in the psychedelic experience I realize how crazy these thoughts are and I feel even more confident in my survival instincts than when sober. Any sort of obsessive-compulsive thought patterns I can also see right through and realize how silly they are. On the ALD-52 I thought about my use of dissociatives and I realized that I do regret abusing them to the extent that I did, but it was mostly a peaceful acceptance rather a self-flagellatory sort of realization. I'm just so glad that I've quit dissociatives for good because now the healing process will be continuous rather than intermittent.
Probably the best thing I noticed with the 5-MeO-MiPT but especially with the ALD-52 was how the smooth the descent was, absolutely no trace of headache which was a huge plus for me. I got absolutely brutal headaches on the comedown the past few times I used 2C-B and the one time I used 2C-B-FLY, along with more minor headaches from 2C-C and 2C-D. I used to love 2C-B and I've used it more than any other psychedelic but I probably won't use it again for this reason. 2C-C is even better than 2C-B I think, so I really hope it was just a one-time thing with 2C-C, but unfortunately there does seem to be a pattern with the phenethylamines giving me headaches on the comedown (6-APB, MDA & MDMA give me similar types of headaches on the comedown FWIW and that's one big reason I haven't rolled in a few years, although I would love to try AMT as it sounds absolutely beautiful).
Some people suspect the headaches are caused by rebound vasodilation but I've found vasoconstrictors like caffeine offer very little relief for these headaches. I think a better hypothesis is that prostaglandin E2, which is known to induce migraines, accumulates as a result of 5-HT2AR-mediated arachidonic acid activation. Acetaminophen stops these headaches in their tracks for me, and sure enough it's been show to inhibit prostaglandin E2 synthesis. Anyways, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the phenethylamines are more prone to inducing headache due to increased functional selectivity for the arachidonic acid pathway relative to tryptamines and lysergamides.
Edit: Thought I'd add that the day I took ALD-52 it was quite sunny while the next day it was quite blustery with dark skies, which may have influenced my perception of the 5-MeO-MiPT. Also have a great afterglow today with an uplifted mood and enhanced color saturation. I was able to make an 8 hour drive which I needed 4F-MPH to make last time and never really got frustrated despite being in the car for so long. I even felt like my focus was better and like I was less "on autopilot" than when I made the drive on 4F-MPH.
I'm glad to hear it, and appreciate the perspective.
Honestly, if you think 8 mg of 5-MeO-MiPT orally is more visual than 100 µg of ALD-52 and lasts that long you may be closer to my sensitivity to it than most people we talk to about it after all. I agree quite a lot with basically everything you said about 5-MeO-MiPT, and can at least relate to the ALD-52 because of LSD. A lot of people seem to think that 5-MeO-MiPT is a good social psychedelic, but for me a lot of the experience before that much subtler trailing part feels a bit too heavy with a more classical tryptamine sort of feel, the trip is distinctly different from mushrooms but it's more like mushrooms like that where I feel a bit more introspective and overwhelmed if I try to pierce through it much; it's not the worst social psychedelic though and I do tend to enjoy being social in the later hours of tryptamine experiences in general. I do agree too that while set and setting of course may play a role, I find it to have a stranger and darker vibe than LSD typically, and this is something I actually find to be pretty common with tryptamines in general, but it's also something I find to be especially well-concentrated in some tryptamines more than others still and that so far does include the 5-methoxytryptamines we've tried to varying extents, though I'll note that 5-MeO-MiPT may be the least strange and dark of those for me so far (5-MeO-EiPT and 5-MeO-DiPT are the only meaningful points of comparison I have yet). It's something I've grown to like about them and tryptamines in general more over the years as I like how it provides a different perspective from the psychedelics I was more used to before, but especially because I still have those options too, I wouldn't want to pick one over the other(s).
I will say, there's something I've actually started to wonder about psychedelic durations oral vs smoked (or other) particularly as a result of a lot of tryptamine smoking we've been doing recently.... You may already be aware of it but just in case you're not, there's this old quirky scientific observation about LSD that has always provided questions for researchers about how it actually works that essentially is that if LSD is given by IV administration to human volunteers, certain effects do start kicking in pretty much immediately as would generally be expected, but for the most part it still rises up slowly over the next half hour to an hour before it can really be considered peaking and still continues to transform and last like an entire half a day at least in basically the same way that would be expected from the moment an oral or sublingual dose really started kicking in, which, of course, seems really strange. It led to the theory that perhaps the effect of LSD is mediated not by an immediate effect on the person's neurochemistry, but by triggering some sort of signaling cascade which then continues to run on its own and requires a certain amount of time to build up and then slowly come back down no matter how quickly it's triggered, and while I and I don't think scientists would say that theory has exactly been proven, I think it's notable that there have been some "triggered cascade" mechanisms recently found to play important roles in at least some of the effects of things like psychedelics and dissociatives, like their so-called rapid-acting antidepressant effects. On the other hand, the effects of DMT smoked compared to taken orally clearly seem to suggest that powerful psychedelic effects can come on practically immediately and come down similarly rapidly in tandem with the metabolic half-life of the molecule producing them, suggesting that there must be more to the big picture of what's really going on here.
The first thing that really made us begin to question is when we noticed that smoking MET, the effect was pretty similar to smoking DMT both in terms of tripping particularly hard for the first ~20 minutes and then had an afterglow that made us feel good for quite some time afterwards, except that whereas on DMT it really does feel primarily like a "glow" where we're amazed and happy but not much more, on MET the state still had an additional stimulating energy and mental trippiness with some geometric imagery still going in the mind's eye and everything, and it felt more like, though still not at the level of, the later hours of LSD than the afterglow of DMT ever did. Smoking MPT turned out to be the same way but even stronger, more like DMT for the first ~20 minutes but then slowly developing a more LSD-like effect that lasted for several hours after that with decent visuals and headspace, again not so DMT-like like the beginning but more LSD-like, and then we tried taking MPT orally, and the effect was notably more like just taking LSD orally except with hallucinations and dissociative effects more like DMT occurring a bit more simultaneously at least the beginning, slowly transforming into just the more subtle lasting high again as the hours went on, and lasting a fairly similar amount to the "afterglow" of smoking it did. The same sort of difference turned out to seem pretty relevant for MiPT too, and now we've started to realize the same for 5-MeO-MiPT and 5-MeO-EiPT after smoking them, they produce effects closer to smoked DMT than what they produce orally, though also closer to what we've heard about 5-MeO-DMT but can't yet compare to directly, for around the first hour or so, and then produce stronger LSD-like lasting states of energy, more simplistic but externalized visual distortions, and so on, and these 5-methoxytryptamines are even more visual and longer-lasting than the base tryptamines for us in this way, we felt that good state, though subtle, for practically the whole day after we smoked that ~5 mg of 5-MeO-MiPT yesterday morning until we passed out on the couch smoking cannabis later in the evening. So, basically what I have to wonder now, especially given that it's known that psychedelics can activate 5-HT2A receptors in multiple distinct ways simultaneously and in different ratios to one another (functional selectivity), is it possible that there are at least two distinct types of psychedelic states that are produced somewhat selectively by DMT and LSD, respectively, with the former being an immediate one that ends as soon as the drug leaves the receptor while the latter is the one involving a triggered cascade that has to slowly build up and come down even after the drug is out of your system? Obviously I can't say for sure, but just thought it might be worth putting out there for the sake of keeping in mind when making future oral vs smoking/vaporizing tryptamine comparisons, I think it seems like a potentially interesting avenue of exploration.
I get that about dissociatives too, we never used them that much but did go through a phase of using nitrous oxide every single time we took a psychedelic to help us push deeper and deeper and get over some past anxieties we had built up about it, and I do feel that that legitimately helped us, but by the end it was starting to make us feel a bit crazy and seemed like it was taking over the focus of a lot of our trips too, so we pretty much stopped doing it and haven't looked back since. I'm glad to hear that you're past your abusive phase with them and in a happier state of mind about it all now too.
That is too bad about the headaches you get with phenethylamines too, but you're certainly not the first I've heard say that. For what it's worth, psilocin is supposedly highly selective for the arachidonic acid pathway of the 5-HT2A receptor and psilocybin has already been shown to cause delayed, transient headaches in a large number of healthy volunteers (
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3345296/), so you might want to factor that into any tryptamine considerations you make (speaking from experience, all tryptamines have similarities but the 4-substituted, 5-substituted, and base ones definitely have consistent differences, so it won't necessarily apply to them all similarly).
Thanks again for sharing.
This may be an odd question but I’m curious on peoples thoughts..
have any of you ever heard “entheogenic” experiences on Amphetamine? My friend and I dosed 20 mg of adderall orally this morning and did a few small bumps of it later as well. Then we drove 2 hrs back to our hometown for this weekend.
In the car ride we had some extremely deep and emotional conversation. We talked about many things but the focus was on us voicing our psychological shortcomings and attempting to verbalize and really explore what it is that we feel is wrong with us, mentally that is
im reflecting back on that conversation now that I’m back to baseline and it really was one of the most positive drug experiences I’ve had in a while. Is this sort of psychedelic/entheogenic/trippi quality uncommon for Amphetamine? Were we just tweaking and deluded with how beneficial it really was?
id love to hear other peoples stories if they have them. I’ve read some trip reports on erowid that seem to match my experience but I’d love to hear more if anyone has something to share
oh and sorry to interrupt the RC talk, that write up was very informative
@Xorkoth
For what it's worth, a study measuring the capacity of psilocybin to occasion "mystical experiences" using methylphenidate as a reference compound found that "22 of the total group of 36 volunteers had a 'complete' mystical experience after psilocybin (ten, nine, and three participants in the first, second, and third session, respectively) while only 4 of 36 did so after methylphenidate (two participants each in the first and second sessions)" and that "67% of the volunteers rated the experience with psilocybin to be either the single most meaningful experience of his or her life or among the top five most meaningful experiences of his or her life" but that "[a]fter methylphenidate, in contrast, 8% of volunteers rated the experience to be among the top five (but not the single most) spiritually significant experiences." They conclude in saying that "Seventy-nine percent of the volunteers rated that the psilocybin experience increased their current sense of personal well being or life satisfaction 'moderately' {50%} or 'very much' {29%}, in contrast to 17 and 4%, respectively, after methylphenidate. No volunteer rated either the psilocybin or methylphenidate experience as having decreased their sense of well being or life satisfaction." (
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-006-0457-5)
Now, that all sounds negative for methylphenidate in comparison to psilocybin, but let me rephrase it this way: when 36 volunteers were given methylphenidate, 4 of them had a "complete" mystical experience, 8% of them rated the experience to be among the top five most spiritually significant experiences of his or her life, 17% say that the experience increased their current sense of personal well being or life satisfaction "moderately", and 4% say it did so "very much", and none of them said it decreased their sense of well being or life satisfaction.
In my opinion, for the most part, if something feels good, it can probably do some good, that just still has to be actively weighed against all the other pros and cons about it and about any other available options too.
I can definitely see how it would be tricky to take something away from an amphetamine experience. That’s not necessarily a knock on it though, as I’ve had plenty of psychedelic experiences too that were just giggle fests, thinking I’ve found god in a banana and nothing really profound to take back. Sometimes the substance blesses us, other times it does not
This.
(we were fresh off an mdma roll the night before too)
The above all being said, I'd be willing to bet this played some role too. Staying awake and adding any extra highs whatsoever to a fading MDMA roll starting around three and a half to four hours in starts to bring out a psychedelic experience for me.
The 5-Cl-AMT experiment has been interesting. In the last 4 hours, my pupils actually became much more dilated, and it seems stronger in some ways. I would say that this experience has been inconclusive. Enjoyable though.
Interesting.... I think it's definitely safe to assume that this could be a weird one until it proves itself to be otherwise based on its unique polypharmacology. Seems forgiving enough so far at least though. And thanks for the updates once again.
