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Participating in Sydney trials for ketamine as a treatment for depression-questions!

MissNervosa

MissNervosa

Bluelighter
Joined
Jun 16, 2012
Messages
352
Location
Sydney,Australia
Ok I'm new,so hopefully this is in the right place,mods please move it if I've stuffed up :?

I'm one interview away from being accepted into the clinical trial in Sydney for the use of ketamine as a treatment for depression,run by The Black Dog Institute.

I've been suffering pretty major depression for years now,and am always researching new and thinking outside the box ways of treating it,as I know from experience that traditional monotherapy antidepressants don't cut it.

The trial will be six weeks,and will include an iv injection of a different amount of ketamine each week and a placebo one week which will have similar side effects to ketamine but no known antidepressant effects.The amounts of ketamine will be much smaller than those used in surgery,but participants are required to stay for 4 hours after the injection and be monitored as they still may get minor side effects like very minor hallucinations,agitation,sedation etc.

I have some questions and concerns I was hoping some more experienced bluelighters could help me with? The first is,I've never done ketamine recreationally,so I'm curious as to whether anyone has experienced antidepressant effects from it? I've also heard some people have had negative experiences with it,is there any way that such small doses would make me more depressed? Also what if it has such a wonderful effect and then I'm left out in the cold at the end of the trial? I've looked into it,and I'm pretty sure,as good as my psychiatrist is,there is no loophole to prescribe it off label,and there's no way I can buy some off my (admittedly very limited) contacts,as I've already asked.And I'm sure we'll be looking at 5-10 years minimum until the drug is on the market,if it's even approved at all....which just isn't good enough :(

I'd really appreciate some feedback here,and am also on msn,as I'm going a bit nuts wondering what to do,and whether to go through with it at all,and my interview is next week.Thanks in advance %)
 
The negative experiences usually come from physical problems, which you won't experience from such little use, or the psychedelic/k-hole aspect, which you shouldn't experience.
This is a HR website, but if you're thinking of using threshold doses of Ketamine each week for an undetermined time you're much better off buying Ketamine online that on the street for both price and quality.
There is already evidence suggesting the anti-depressant side effects, and although this trial may contribute to that evidence I think 5-10 years is quite optimistic.
I know if I had the chance to help with my depression I'd take it, but my hospital isn't offering to give me Ketamine.
 
There's a lot of anecdotal evidence out there for the antidepressant effect of ketamine, I've never felt it strongly, but I know a lot of people who swear by it, and as far as I can tell it seem to work for them.

As for side effects, I wouldn't worry too much, ketamine is physically very smooth, and it sounds like the doses will be low enough to prevent any deep hullucinogenic experiences. Even then, I don't find dissociative hullucinations uncomfortable the way psychadelic ones can be, because the drug makes you feel like a detached observer more than anything.

Good luck! Keep us posted if you can, I'd be fascinated to hear what the trial is like and how well it goes.
 
MissNervosa how did you come across signing up for this trial? I live in Sydney and would love to be able to participate, any tips on how to do so?
 
Thank you DeathDomokun I didn't think of buying online,although I am so inexperienced/retarded I wouldn't know where to purchase without getting ripped off.Must do some research!
And you're right,it is a good opportunity.

Crankinit I've actually never tried any hallucinogens as the psychedelic type ones freak me out,I'm more of an uppers girl.But I have experienced dissociative type hallucinations from various z meds and they haven't bothered me much so that's good to know,thanks.I'll definitely keep you posted,as long as the face to face interview goes well,I'm in,so fingers crossed!

sartrei I'd seen a few articles in the media and came across it randomly whilst googling for more info.I don't think I'm allowed to post links,but you should find the trial sign up on the Black Dog Institute website.Also my msn link is on my profile if you want to add me and chat more,I can send you the info I have on it :)
 
hmmm interesting indeed.... I shall look further into this and if can get some credible info will post in this thread again :)
 
Previous trials of ketamine's anti-depressant effects suggest that a single dose of about 0.5 mg/kg bodyweight infused intavenously causes a pretty rapid anti-depressant effect that lasts about 3-6 days. Repeating the injections once per week for several weeks causes the anti-depressant response to become more sustained, lasting at least a few weeks, maybe even longer, after the last injection. It appears to have this effect in about 60-80% of the depressed people on whom it's been trialled, so an apparently much better success rate than even the best of the traditional monoaminergic antidepressants, but all trials so far have been pretty small.

From what I know of this trial (having been peripherally involved at its early stages), the highest dose I think they would give would be about 0.5 mg/kg IV (so, for example, if you weigh 70 kg, you'd get 35 mg). Some participants experience notable perceptual distortions lasting up to 40 minutes, but it's very unlikely you'd get a full dissociative k-hole. I'm also under the impression that they're required to have anti-psychotic and benzodiazepine medication available to control any acute "freak-out" reaction that a participant may experience, but I've also heard that there have not been such reactions so far where this technique has been piloted.

You're right that they'd only have ethics approval to give you a certain number of treatments, and then that would be it. You wouldn't be able to get ketamine legally prescribed in an ongoing way until it has approval for this, but you would be helping it get that approval quicker by participating. In the mean time, I suppose there's a possibility that the researchers might also look into further trials of it (e.g. testing the use of ongoing occasional "maintenance" doses) in which they may allow previous participants to take part, so who knows, maybe there would be other opportunities for you to get it experimentally in the mean time. There's also current trials of it for pain control, and I wouldn't be surprised if it became more widely available for these non-anaesthetic applications soon.
 
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I'm intrigued pharm_friendly,what sort of info?

Here's an interesting article I found where they have already completed a trial on one patient http://www.psychweekly.com/aspx/article/articledetail.aspx?articleid=1118

shoo-bop The trial info said they'd be using roughly one tenth of the dose of anaesthesia doses,which I believe are approx 2 mg per kilo? So I'm assuming they are talking about amounts of 0.2 mg per kg,and based on that article,perhaps per kg of ideal body weight? Although each week the dose will be different so surely they would allow room to take it up to 0.5 mg per kg?

The info pack did say they'd have sedatives available should any agitation or unwanted side effects occur,so I know I'm in good hands.

The doctor in charge of admissions is speaking to my psychiatrist about my participation this week and as long as he approves and the face to face interview goes well,I'm in.I've decided to definitely go ahead with it,because if I can help even in this small way,to get a potentially life changing drug approved,I will.I've been to hell and back with depression,and still haven't found the answer to it.

However if I find it does work for me,I've decided to go rogue,and find K for my own personal therapeutic use at home.I'm just stuck on how to do that at the moment.I know buying online for purity and price is a good idea,but I have no idea which sites and sellers to trust.I don't even know how to find a site that reviews sites that sells these sorts of things.I know google is my friend,but when you're a noob like me,it's very very frustrating:sus:
 
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Oh well,so much for that,my psych vetoed it,so now I'm not in the running for the trial :!

Fuck it,I'll just buy my own K and have my own home trial!! Not happy :(
 
I think it's about surface area as well as BF% to be very specific, but mg/kg is good enough. Then again I don't administer Ketamine in a hospital so I don't know how they'll do it.
The psychiatrist you see or one at the hospital? I don't understand how your psych has the authority to veto it?
 
Yeah once I've purchased some,in whatever form it happens to come in (can't afford to be picky,it's taken me forever to find just one contact) I'll be back asking dosage questions.

It was the psychiatrist I see,and while he doesn't have the power to veto,he definitely has the power to give his honest opinion on why I wouldn't be suitable.All I was told is that it wasn't anything to do with the ketamine,it was just that the stress of the trial may cause some set backs in the treatment of my anxiety disorder.

And yes,I'm having quite a tantrum about it :X
 
Actually I have a dosage question already.As previously stated,the usual dose is 0.5mg per kg,but it has been suggested that it's more effective to go by ideal body weight rather than actual body weight.I SHOULD weigh around 70kg,but I actually weigh a great deal more than this,so if I went by my actual body weight,there's a possibility I might take more than I can handle.
I ask this because my connection sells by the gram,and I was hesitant and asked if I could buy half a gram first off,just in case it's crap.And I also might find that it does nothing for me depression wise.But should I go ahead and buy a gram? I'm confused,and need some guidance by those with some experience :?
 
AFAIK it's by how much you do weigh, not how much you should way. Bigger people need more and smaller people need less.
It also depends on the ROA. I assume you're buying powder, and not medical vials, in which case IV should be out of the question.
Whether you want to IM or insufflate (up your nose) or even oral, the dosage would be different.
I'm under the impression 1mg/kg IM'd is an anesthetic dose, and .1mg/kg is threshold
.5mg/kg is a recreational dose, I mean the effects of higher doses of Ketamine may be enjoyable and help more than lower doses.
I'm no doctor, but I've seen one on TV.
 
I'm assuming I'm buying powder too,and insufflating would be my preferred method.Anything involving needles is out of the question as I get all fainty even looking at them,and would probably end up killing myself.

I hate to sound retarded,but what does IM stand for? Or does that mean intramuscular ? :?
 
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Maybe start off with .15-.2mg/kg up your nose. To work this out, multiply your body weight by .15 or .2 respectively, and snort away.
It's essential you use decent scales, although Ketamine is relatively safe on it's own and I haven't heard of any deaths by K OD, only things like hypoventilation from mixing K with depressants.
Good luck.
 
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