Paradoxical Reactions to Stimulants

[Ekscentra]

After attempting to post this in the nootropics thread, I decided I may get a better answer here, and I'd prefer not to derail a thread with a topic only partially relating to nootropics (and indirectly, at that.) I've noticed something strange with regard to stimulants, something I haven't seen mentioned anywhere at this point. Some act as sedatives for me (while paradoxically preventing sleep) while others act as stimulants while still having the sensation of being sedated (though not actually being sedated, just the physical sensations in my head around the same areas I've noticed in stimulants that cause sedation.) Nicotine, for example, sedates the hell out of me. The more I've used it, the stronger all of the effects have gotten, a strange sort of reverse tolerance. At this point, I can no longer use the patches at any dose as it's so sedating I can't function when I'm on them (unfortunate, as Nicotine has been the most reliable daily cognitive enhancer, in my experience.) Caffeine does exactly the same thing - I'm extremely tired, yet unable to sleep. Amphetamines and methylphenidate (shit drug, by the way), despite my paradoxical reactions to nearly every other stimulant, manage to keep me awake while, as I said, giving me the physical sensation I associate with sedation. PRL 8-53 is the only stimulating substance that lacks this physical sensation of sedation, though it doesn't feel like a traditional stimulant at all, otherwise I wouldn't need D-Amphetamine in the first place (that and the quick building of tolerance with frequent use, restricting my use to twice a week.) Any possible pharmacological reason for this? I originally thought it might be due to the extended-release mechanism the patches, but this wouldn't fit with the fact that caffeine still acts as a sedative for me. Sedation from both nicotine and caffeine have been present at all doses attempted (1mg to 15mg and 60mg to 1g, respectively.)

Another note, for what it's worth. I have Asperger's and ADD, two "disorders" (hardly a proper term for what is nothing more than a different way of thinking, but I digress) that significantly increase the chances of a paradoxical reaction. While my ADD may explain my reaction to both caffeine and nicotine, and perhaps even amphetamine, I'm not interested in seeing either of these two as reasons for the cause. I'm asking a very specific question regarding pharmacology. With all due respect to anyone reading this thread, if I wanted either of these conditions as answers to my problem, I wouldn't have posted this thread in the first place. I'm looking for a specific answer, not a vague blanket statement. Paradoxical reactions still aren't well understood by the medical community, so feel free to speculate here. This exact issue may or may not have been mentioned before - I haven't seen anything of the sort, otherwise I'd have been posting in a currently-existing thread rather than creating a new one. Any replies are much appreciated.


TL;DR: What might explain paradoxical reactions to most stimulants, yet normal reactions to amphetamines, especially in users with ADD/ADHD and Asperger's?

 

[Effect]

I'm looking for a specific answer, not a vague blanket statement..... so feel free to speculate here. .

That kind of turned me away. IMO someone's speculation wouldn't fall under the term 'specific answer'. You said it yourself that the medical community doesn't quite understand paradoxical reactions at this point in time so nobody here is going to know exactly why your body gets paradoxical sedation to some stimulants, while typical pharmaceutical ADD stimulants don't cause this reaction.

 

[Ekscentra]

That kind of turned me away. IMO someone's speculation wouldn't fall under the term 'specific answer'. You said it yourself that the medical community doesn't quite understand paradoxical reactions at this point in time so nobody here is going to know exactly why your body gets paradoxical sedation to some stimulants, while typical pharmaceutical ADD stimulants don't cause this reaction.

By "specific answer," I'm referring to anything less broad than a simple diagnosis (i.e. x condition is responsible for this effect.) Keeping in mind how little we understand about paradoxical reactions, a specific answer by your definition isn't possible at this time. I did not contradict myself, you simply misunderstood me. Yes, everything relating to this topic will be speculation. Does that clear anything up?

 

[Effect]

Yeah sorry if that came off as rude, I just was kind of unsure about exactly how to respond. A lot of people aren't going to want to read all that. You might get more responses if you make a quick summary at the top with a general question for those who don't want to read it all, but still want to try to help you out.

 

[_DankOpiAmp_]

I think you are misusing the word sedation. Feeling calm is not sedation. Do stimulants lower your heart rate? If stimulants enhance your cognition they are stimulating your mind. Do you just feel tired when using stimulants? This happens when you do them on an empty stomach.

This is as specific of an answer as you are going to get.

P.S. Just wait on the nicotine, it will stop enhancing you soon enough and you will need to smoke just to get out of the fog.

 

[PotatoMan]

I haven't used any amps or meth but nicotine, caffeine and cocaine all make me feel very relaxed when I use them while sitting. If I were to want to be stimulated by them all I'd have to do is stand up and I feel the energy. So I think what you're experiencing is normal and no cause for concern.

 

[mr druggles]

Some stims make me lazy but considering im very lazy psychologically anyway btw I have adhd and aspergers among other things but I think its normal that people get Chilled out from some stimulants just like some people get hyper from some downers and opiates it seems strange but theres nothing bad happening to your body apart from the damage that the drugs always do

 

[Ekscentra]

@Effect

Yeah, no worries mate. I do have a habit of writing incredibly long posts. I'll add in a TL;DR at the end.

@Dank

By sedation, I'm referring to an overwhelming need for sleep, yet without necessarily having the ability to fall asleep. I've noticed this effect with nicotine both after eating and without eating, so this effect, for me, is entirely independent of how much I ate beforehand. Nicotine still does increase my heart-rate, however. As for taking a break, I've been off nicotine for a month only to return to the sedated feeling to the same extent where I left off.

@PotatoMan


Possibly. Most of the work I do on stimulants involves "sitting down," so I wouldn't have noticed any type of change here. Still, it's strange that amphetamines would have this stimulating effect while other stimulants are completely lacking in this area.

@mr druggles

I'm not worried about this reaction being potentially dangerous, but it does make me curious. It seems the answers to my question simply don't exist at this point, so it may be best to put it to a rest. Hopefully someone will be able to shed some light on this question sometime in the future. Until then, I'll be waiting.

 

[_DankOpiAmp_]

I would try aerobic exercise as the amphetamines are peaking. Physical activity should wake you up unless you are dehydrated or something. What you are referring to is a feeling of fatigue rather than sedation. I find physical activity greatly increases wakefulness on stimulants but I would minimize the smoking as it can cancel it out if you smoke too much. Are you sleep deprived?

 

[neurotic]

this is not a pharmacological answer so you probably won't like it, but i think that nicotine and caffeine are such weak stimulants, it's like they don't count. some times when i'm drunk i like smoking a cig and take long puffs and it chills me out, and i remember once trying to keep myself awake by drinking two red bulls and falling asleep like 15 minutes later.

have you tried coke?

also how much methyplhenidate did you take? if i snort something like over 60mg i'm sure i won't be sedated, more like walking in circles non stop without even realizing it

 

[Ekscentra]

@Dank

I have no problem remaining awake on amphetamines. Interesting enough, I don't hydrate myself nearly as often as I should (I have chronic fatigue, and this may be why.) I don't smoke, I use nicotine patches. This still doesn't explain why certain stimulants would act so differently for me, however.

@Neurotic

I haven't had the chance to try coke, but I'm already certain the short half-life would make it unsuitable for my needs. I took 30mg methylphenidate orally. I was unable to do anything other than attempt to go to sleep all day. Psychosis and visual distortions quickly set in, which lasted for the remainder of the month. Methylphenidate lasted all day for me despite its short half-life, which tends to happen with most stimulants for me (dextroamphetamine lasts nearly 12 hours, for example.) I'm more interested in 4-MAR myself, though there's hardly any way of getting it in my area. Other than methamphetamine and Adderall, I've had nothing but good experiences with amphetamines (too many physical sides from the levo isomer stopped me from enjoying these two.)