Palestine discussion

[-=SS=-]

"Alt righters use terms like “culture” as substitutes for more divisive terms such as “race,” and promote “Western Civilization” as a code word for white culture or identity. They tend to avoid explicit white supremacist references like the “14 words,” a slogan used by neo-Nazis and other hardcore white supremacists. While alt righters share the sentiment behind the “14 words” they’re more inclined to talk about preserving European-American identity."

This is some bullshit that the BBC or Home Office would come out with. Anyone that does not except their ideology of equality and diversity is automatically some far-right thug.

Again, this is this deliberately divisive shoe-horning mentality, designed to silence criticism or debate, of the ideology of equality and diversity. When the whole situation comes to a head, which it will, it is people like you who I will blame for the inevitable violence and not just the politicians. You are helping to butcher the English language and open discussion, in bad faith.

There is nothing supremacist or far-right about wanting to not have a multi-cultural society or enforced diversity. Not least of all because the public was never asked if they wanted it, it was foisted upon them without vote or say.

Anyway, I get it. Now you are just saying that Islam is an inferior religion.

If you want to compare Islam as a religion to other religions, than absolutely yes it is inferior to just about every other religion without a shadow of a doubt. You have to be in some serious denial to contest that point, given there are numerous countries where Islamic followers are persecuting Christians now.

Most religions have some ideal centred around human values, namely love, or some transcendent ideal we should hope to strive for. Islam does not have that. It is about subjugation, which makes it more of a political ideology than a religion really. And whilst it's not the only religion to treat women appallingly for example, you can't honestly look at Islam in comparison to other religions and not be disturbed by what is plain to see.

And, again, I do love the delicious irony of people who stick up for Islam especially if they claim to be for women, gay or trans rights. You'd be stoned to death or thrown off a roof in a lot of Islamic countries if you made public declarations or protested for those things. Total lack of self-awareness, and a great source of personal entertainment.

 

[mal3volent]

to call an entire religion, such as Islam, inferior.

I never said that. I think fundamentalism is the problem, no matter which religion.

But based on various factors, different religions can become more problematic than others at different times in history. This used to be something that was considered non-controversial and common sense...

 

[-=SS=-]

I'm just going to leave this here.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

If you want to compare Islam as a religion to other religions, than absolutely yes it is inferior to just about every other religion without a shadow of a doubt. You have to be in some serious denial to contest that point, given there are numerous countries where Islamic followers are persecuting Christians now.

I can't condemn Islam as a religion any more than I can condemn Christianity as a whole just because of Fundamentalist Christianity in America right now. As a matter of fact, even it persecuting minority groups and women aside, it's issues affect me directly, and want to insert themselves into my life, way more than Islam.

And, again, I do love the delicious irony of people who stick up for Islam especially if they claim to be for women, gay or trans rights. You'd be stoned to death or thrown off a roof in a lot of Islamic countries if you made public declarations or protested for those things. Total lack of self-awareness, and a great source of personal entertainment.

Islam is practised by 1.9 billion people to Christianity's 2.4. You're saying every one of those 1.9 billion people are stoning people and the rest of your claims.




BTW. Your ad hominems have been hot and heavy from the beginning of this debate. I can continue to ignore them for what they are worth. I'll just point them out again and request that you no longer claim I am misrepresenting you.

 

[alasdairm]

interesting that some people who can't make one point without deliberately conflating sex and gender have no issue distinguishing race and culture to make another.

selective nuance?

alasdair

 

[-=SS=-]

I can't condemn Islam as a religion any more than I can condemn Christianity as a whole just because of Fundamentalist Christianity in America right now.

I wasn't aware that fundamentalist Christians are stoning, beating, seating fire to, raping, butchering, innocent people for disagreements or failure to adhere to Islam. Of course you can condemn Islam more than Christianity. What a nonsensical position.

Islam is practised by 1.9 billion people to Christianity's 2.4. You're saying every one of those 1.9 billion people are stoning people and the rest of your claims.

You know that's not what I said. Islam, as a 'religion', as a cultural doorway for an individuals psychology to step through, is demonstrably more dangerous than the Christian religion is now. Maybe not 500 years ago, but now Christians have moved beyond that point culturally.

Islam makes it far too easy for a follower to tend towards barbarism if they uphold all of what Islam lays before them in its text. A person can choose to interpret Islam in their own way - that still does not stop Islam itself still being an absolutely ridiculous religious system to follow - but Islam at its core is about subjugation, it's baked into the text.

It is an inferior, backwards religion. It does not aim to lead its followers to a higher ideal, it does not tolerate competing systems of belief. Most Muslims in Islamic nations are quite happy to have death for apostates. And while an individual Muslim may be a nice person, they are still breathing life into [the mind virus] of Islam. Which is fine if you want to keep that within Islamic countries, but we do not need that here in the West thank you very much.

Several nations in Europe, now, are paying the price for tolerating it. I do not need to itemize the terrorist attacks, rapes, murders, etc, that are a direct consequence of Islam in our nations. I'm from the UK, so don't even get me started.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

I wasn't aware that fundamentalist Christians are stoning, beating, seating fire to, raping, butchering, innocent people for disagreements or failure to adhere to Islam. Of course you can condemn Islam more than Christianity. What a nonsensical position.

I used fundamentalist Christianity being bad in saying that I could not judge an entire religion as good or bad going by a bad group. I did not make the claim that fundamentalists are doing any of those things, although they do some.

It is you who are going much further than slanting things emotionally now. You are setting up a straw man by putting words in my mouth.

You know that's not what I said.

I wasn't aware that fundamentalist Christians are stoning, beating, seating fire to, raping, butchering, innocent people for disagreements or failure to adhere to Islam. Of course you can condemn Islam more than Christianity. What a nonsensical position.

It is an inferior, backwards religion.

Sure sounds like you are saying that at least the majority of Muslims do such things.


Just watched your video.
The great majority of Muslims are not trying to force their religion on anyone else.

A great many Christians, definitely fundamentalists, believe homosexuality and abortion are immoral. Do they need to be carefully observed to ensure they don't radicalize further, re-educated, and kept at a distance from civilized societies until they adopt more progressive attitudes, as your video says about Muslims?

The Bible says many things not considered or believed at all by the majority of Christians such as stoning immoral women. A Muslim could look at the Bible and call Christianity a violent religion rather easily. They could also cite the Crusades as proof, but ne'mind.

The problem is that you want to explain away violence which is mostly political by blaming Islam. While I will admit that many of these people are uniting under the flag of a religion, the problems are not Islam trying to spread itself. The Palestinians want to stop an invasion and Iran wanted to stop the US from propping the Shah of Iran back into power as two examples.

It's easy and convenient to continue to believe that we have the right to control their countries and any resistance is because we are "too free" or that they or their religion are savage

 

[someguyontheinternet]

This is some bullshit that the BBC or Home Office would come out with. Anyone that does not except their ideology of equality and diversity is automatically some far-right thug.

Again, this is this deliberately divisive shoe-horning mentality, designed to silence criticism or debate, of the ideology of equality and diversity. When the whole situation comes to a head, which it will, it is people like you who I will blame for the inevitable violence and not just the politicians. You are helping to butcher the English language and open discussion, in bad faith.

There is nothing supremacist or far-right about wanting to not have a multi-cultural society or enforced diversity. Not least of all because the public was never asked if they wanted it, it was foisted upon them without vote or say.

If you want to compare Islam as a religion to other religions, than absolutely yes it is inferior to just about every other religion without a shadow of a doubt. You have to be in some serious denial to contest that point, given there are numerous countries where Islamic followers are persecuting Christians now.

Most religions have some ideal centred around human values, namely love, or some transcendent ideal we should hope to strive for. Islam does not have that. It is about subjugation, which makes it more of a political ideology than a religion really. And whilst it's not the only religion to treat women appallingly for example, you can't honestly look at Islam in comparison to other religions and not be disturbed by what is plain to see.

And, again, I do love the delicious irony of people who stick up for Islam especially if they claim to be for women, gay or trans rights. You'd be stoned to death or thrown off a roof in a lot of Islamic countries if you made public declarations or protested for those things. Total lack of self-awareness, and a great source of personal entertainment.

Perhaps you missed this:

"Alt righters use terms like “culture” as substitutes for more divisive terms such as “race,” and promote “Western Civilization” as a code word for white culture or identity. They tend to avoid explicit white supremacist references like the “14 words,” a slogan used by neo-Nazis and other hardcore white supremacists. While alt righters share the sentiment behind the “14 words” they’re more inclined to talk about preserving European-American identity."

You are being redirected...

 

[-=SS=-]

The great majority of Muslims are not trying to force their religion on anyone else.

That is besides the point. Do you want me to explain to you why, using the contemporary example of British Pakistani rape gangs and how their families and communities protected (and continue to) them? And also it's just not true, again using the UK as an example, we are now seeing the slow creep of Islam into the political system coming to tangible fruition. So the assertion that 'the great majority' are not trying to force it is besides the point, because they are a part of an ideology that is trying to force itself on others and saying nothing in opposition to that.

The problem is that you want to explain away violence which is mostly political by blaming Islam. While I will admit that many of these people are uniting under the flag of a religion, the problems are not Islam trying to spread itself. The Palestinians want to stop an invasion and Iran wanted to stop the US from propping the Shah of Iran back into power as two examples.

Right, so how do you square the circle of the majority of Palestinian's freely voting in Hamas who expressly want to terminate Israel and Jews generally? Would you rather ascribe that to personal defects of all the individuals or would you rather perhaps concede that Islam might have something to do with their position?

We have already established that Islam is violent by its nature, it is political by its nature, and it was that way long before America or even the UK became legal entities. You can't just palm away known history, we know Islam is barbarous, that is not even up for debate.

Your blind spot is the same blind spot many British and Italian's have regarding their own history and political power structures. Most people just assume that the Royals and the Vatican have changed their tune, become modernized, when only a century or so ago they were not even hiding their intent. Islam is exactly the same, and for the same reasons. These structures, political/religious/cultural, are a whirlwind that doesn't just dissipate overnight.. it carries tremendous momentum, and Islam's momentum is one predicated on centuries of violence and barbarism, and that has not changed in the 20th or 21st century.. nor will it until the majority of Muslim's re-establish Islam, a renaissance, just like Christianity did where it changed the spin of the whirlwind.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

That is besides the point. Do you want me to explain to you why, using the contemporary example of British Pakistani rape gangs and how their families and communities protected (and continue to) them? And also it's just not true, again using the UK as an example, we are now seeing the slow creep of Islam into the political system coming to tangible fruition. So the assertion that 'the great majority' are not trying to force it is besides the point, because they are a part of an ideology that is trying to force itself on others and saying nothing in opposition to that.

Right, so how do you square the circle of the majority of Palestinian's freely voting in Hamas who expressly want to terminate Israel and Jews generally? Would you rather ascribe that to personal defects of all the individuals or would you rather perhaps concede that Islam might have something to do with their position?

We have already established that Islam is violent by its nature, it is political by its nature, and it was that way long before America or even the UK became legal entities. You can't just palm away known history, we know Islam is barbarous, that is not even up for debate.

Your blind spot is the same blind spot many British and Italian's have regarding their own history and political power structures. Most people just assume that the Royals and the Vatican have changed their tune, become modernized, when only a century or so ago they were not even hiding their intent. Islam is exactly the same, and for the same reasons. These structures, political/religious/cultural, are a whirlwind that doesn't just dissipate overnight.. it carries tremendous momentum, and Islam's momentum is one predicated on centuries of violence and barbarism, and that has not changed in the 20th or 21st century.. nor will it until the majority of Muslim's re-establish Islam, a renaissance, just like Christianity did where it changed the spin of the whirlwind.

'The central argument of the ‘grooming gangs’ narrative is, in short, that a ‘disproportionate’ number of Asian/Muslim/Pakistani-heritage men are involved in grooming (mostly) white British girls for organised sexual abuse. These claims are often substantiated with reference to a spate of high-profile prosecutions of so-called ‘grooming gangs’ in towns and cities such as Rotherham, Rochdale, Derby, Telford, Oxford, Huddersfield and Newcastle. The offenders in question – and undoubtedly many more – have absolutely committed horrific crimes; this article is categorically not about denying their existence, belittling their harms or otherwise excusing the inexcusable. The term ‘grooming gangs’, however, is itself a spurious media construct and one that has been heavily racialised from the very start.3 ‘Grooming gangs’ simply do not correspond to established legal or social scientific categories and the various weak definitions offered up by proponents of this racialised narrative fail to delineate these offenders meaningfully from other groups of child sex offenders.4'

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0306396819895727

'“When you just focus on the brown guy, you’re telling girls: ‘Beware of the brown guy.’ You’re not telling them that they’re 40 times more likely in this country to be abused by a British White guy,” he said, citing the Centre of expertise on child sexual abuse (CSA Centre)’s most recent data on child sexual abuse in England and Wales that indicates 2% of perpetrators are of Pakistani backgrounds, whereas 88% are White. The dataset represents the three-quarters of cases where ethnicity was recorded.

But those facts are often drowned out by the “grooming gang” scandal, particularly in towns like Oldham, with larger than national average non-White populations and high rates of poverty.'

https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/06/uk/musk-uk-child-sex-abuse-gbr-intl-cmd/index.html

'When the far Right complains of ‘political correctness’ preventing sexual violence from being named and addressed as a distinctive issue of Muslim culture, it seems obvious enough that they are weaponising ‘free speech’ and co-opting the language of feminism to further their anti-Muslim agenda. But mainstream media and politicians, across the spectrum, too, perpetuate racialised narratives of sexual threat, which obscure the systemic nature of sexual violence, whilst at the same fuelling anti-Muslim racism. This in turn legitimises state authoritarianism, whilst absolving the state of its responsibility to provide adequate support services for vulnerable people and survivors of sexual violence.'

‘Asian grooming gangs’: media, state and the far Right - Institute of Race Relations

On International Women’s Day, Kay Stephens reflects on how the far Right and the mainstream co-opt a feminist stance for racist and anti-feminist ends, particularly around issues of sexual violence. In 2018, we witnessed an escalation in far-right demonstrations in the UK as a response to the...

irr.org.uk

 

[brokedownpalace10]

So the assertion that 'the great majority' are not trying to force it is besides the point, because they are a part of an ideology that is trying to force itself on others and saying nothing in opposition to that.

And, again. Fundamentalist Christianity is trying to force it's views on everyone else in the US. And, they are having much more success at it. It's affecting and could further affect my life quite a bit. Would it be right for me to say all of Christianity is an evil religion since they are not opposing it?

Right, so how do you square the circle of the majority of Palestinian's freely voting in Hamas who expressly want to terminate Israel and Jews generally? Would you rather ascribe that to personal defects of all the individuals or would you rather perhaps concede that Islam might have something to do with their position?

Quite obviously, I would ascribe that to what the jews and israel have done over the years and them being desperate when nothing else works. BTW, It's very well established that Israel has taken up a policy for many years including ethnic cleansing and invasion. Certainly a violent culture. Yet, I don't think or espouse that Judaism is a violent, inferior, religion by it's nature. I'm not blaming an entire religion.

We have already established that Islam is violent by its nature, it is political by its nature, and it was that way long before America or even the UK became legal entities. You can't just palm away known history, we know Islam is barbarous, that is not even up for debate.

We've established nothing of the sort. There is a lot of violence in the Bible and throughout Christianity's history. But no, we can't just say either religion is violent by nature due to that history. Islam has does have a little more reason to be paranoid due to centuries of invasion, pillaging, and plundering during the crusades.

Most people just assume that the Royals and the Vatican have changed their tune, become modernized, when only a century or so ago they were not even hiding their intent. Islam is exactly the same, and for the same reasons.

The Royals and the Vatican are inferior and evil now?

 

[brokedownpalace10]

But, I want to ask the question again, about your video. A great many Christians believe homosexuality and abortion are immoral. Your video said that Muslims in Turkey also believed this.

It said they needed to be carefully observed to ensure they don't radicalize further, re-educated if possible, and kept at a distance from civilized societies until they adopt more progressive attitudes.

Do you also believe this should be done to Christians with the same beliefs?

 

[-=SS=-]

Quite obviously, I would ascribe that to what the jews and israel have done over the years and them being desperate when nothing else works

What have Jews done to Muslims over the years. That's just nonsense. Israel is one thing, but Israel is not all Jews, don't conflate the two.

And it's actually the other way round, Muslims have treated Jews appallingly in other countries not even remotely associated with Israel and also before Israel even came into existence. Do you even understand basic history? You could spend like 30 seconds pursuing Wikipedia to see acknowledged history. Here: History of the Jews under Muslim rule - Wiki

This is not exclusive to Islam either. Christianity, specifically under the direction of the Catholic Church, has also treated Jews appallingly as well. And that extends right into the 20th century with the Pope denying knowledge of the holocaust as it was happening (we now know Jesuit communications informed the Pope at the time), failure to recognise Israel as a state until 1993, watching the Gestapo take Jews from the Jewish ghetto (Papal enforced ghetto in Rome) to be slaughtered, etc.

Jews have historically been oppressed from all angles. Both Islam and Christianity were happy for Jews to do the 'dirty work' involving money because it conflicted with their own religious beliefs, and then also quite happy to use them as the scapegoat whenever culture reached a tension point and needed to deflect internal anger onto a patsy. Nothing has changed in that regard.

But, I want to ask the question again, about your video. A great many Christians believe homosexuality and abortion are immoral. Your video said that Muslims in Turkey also believed this.

It said they needed to be carefully observed to ensure they don't radicalize further, re-educated if possible, and kept at a distance from civilized societies until they adopt more progressive attitudes.

Do you also believe this should be done to Christians with the same beliefs?

No. Because our Western cultures have advanced past the point of any danger of social contagion where the masses could be persuaded to throw homosexuals off rooftops or stone them to death. There is always the possibility of cultural regression, but at present there are absolutely no warning signs that that is a possibility. Islamic cultures on the other hand are actively engaging in such behaviours, the whirlwind is active.

That's the difference between our cultures and theirs. We were doing despicable shit to each other a few centuries ago because of religious belief, but we evolved past that point. Islam can evolve past that point too, that is always a possibility, but as it stands their culture several centuries behind in ethical and philosophical evolution than ours. And as has been said numerous times, we do not need that shit here in the West.. we have our own issues that we need to grow and evolve away from, it is not our duty to solve their issues too.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

What have Jews done to Muslims over the years. That's just nonsense. Israel is one thing, but Israel is not all Jews, don't conflate the two.

And it's actually the other way round, Muslims have treated Jews appallingly in other countries not even remotely associated with Israel and also before Israel even came into existence. Do you even understand basic history? You could spend like 30 seconds pursuing Wikipedia to see acknowledged history. Here: History of the Jews under Muslim rule - Wiki

This is not exclusive to Islam either. Christianity, specifically under the direction of the Catholic Church, has also treated Jews appallingly as well. And that extends right into the 20th century with the Pope denying knowledge of the holocaust as it was happening (we now know Jesuit communications informed the Pope at the time), failure to recognise Israel as a state until 1993, watching the Gestapo take Jews from the Jewish ghetto (Papal enforced ghetto in Rome) to be slaughtered, etc.

Jews have historically been oppressed from all angles. Both Islam and Christianity were happy for Jews to do the 'dirty work' involving money because it conflicted with their own religious beliefs, and then also quite happy to use them as the scapegoat whenever culture reached a tension point and needed to deflect internal anger onto a patsy. Nothing has changed in that regard.

No. Because our Western cultures have advanced past the point of any danger of social contagion where the masses could be persuaded to throw homosexuals off rooftops or stone them to death. There is always the possibility of cultural regression, but at present there are absolutely no warning signs that that is a possibility. Islamic cultures on the other hand are actively engaging in such behaviours, the whirlwind is active.

That's the difference between our cultures and theirs. We were doing despicable shit to each other a few centuries ago because of religious belief, but we evolved past that point. Islam can evolve past that point too, that is always a possibility, but as it stands their culture several centuries behind in ethical and philosophical evolution than ours. And as has been said numerous times, we do not need that shit here in the West.. we have our own issues that we need to grow and evolve away from, it is not our duty to solve their issues too.

So first its not Jews but Israel then suddenly it is about Muslims vs Jews?

 

[-=SS=-]

So first its not Jews but Israel then suddenly it is about Muslims vs Jews?

Read:

Quite obviously, I would ascribe that to what the jews and israel have done over the years and them being desperate when nothing else works.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Read:

Quite obviously, I would ascribe that to what the jews and israel have done over the years and them being desperate when nothing else works. BTW, It's very well established that Israel has taken up a policy for many years including ethnic cleansing and invasion. Certainly a violent culture. Yet, I don't think or espouse that Judaism is a violent, inferior, religion by it's nature. I'm not blaming an entire religion.

Read indeed. Read the following three sentences and it shows the fact that I mean Israel and not Judaism as a whole. It was actually the point being made. Were you claiming I was cherrypicking your words and being sensational? Look to the sty in thine own eye, sir.


In your post, you bring up ancient history of the Muslims treating the Jews poorly while totally ignoring what Israel has done much more recently. Then you end the post with...

No. Because our Western cultures have advanced past the point of any danger of social contagion where the masses could be persuaded to throw homosexuals off rooftops or stone them to death. There is always the possibility of cultural regression, but at present there are absolutely no warning signs that that is a possibility. Islamic cultures on the other hand are actively engaging in such behaviours, the whirlwind is active.

That's the difference between our cultures and theirs. We were doing despicable shit to each other a few centuries ago because of religious belief, but we evolved past that point. Islam can evolve past that point too,

All in the same post. One right after the other. Do you even listen to yourself?


But, ne'mind. Your video was talking about attitudes in Turkey, a fairly moderate country where stoning is not a legal form of punishment. The video was talking about attitudes and I compared it to Christian attitudes. It said they needed to be carefully observed to ensure they don't radicalize further, re-educated if possible, and kept at a distance from civilized societies until they adopt more progressive attitudes. So, you think these attitudes are unacceptable and should be met with all those things? Because that's what it said.

 

[-=SS=-]

In your post, you bring up ancient history of the Muslims treating the Jews poorly while totally ignoring what Israel has done much more recently.

ME: What have Jews done to Muslims over the years. That's just nonsense. Israel is one thing, but Israel is not all Jews.

I'm done with this dialogue. You are not debating in good faith.

 

[Jnowhere]

Israel- has a right to defend itself and all you anti semites do is criticize Israel when it attacks, however not one of you says shit about the countries around it continuing to vote in terrorists and support terrorism. Israel is here to stay.
The enemies of Israel are the ones that dictate when death and destruction are sent their way.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

In your post, you bring up ancient history of the Muslims treating the Jews poorly while totally ignoring what Israel has done much more recently.

(sigh) In the very post you quoted of mine ^^^ I differentiate between the Jews historically and modern Israel. Then, you come back with

ME: What have Jews done to Muslims over the years. That's just nonsense. Israel is one thing, but Israel is not all Jews.

But I'm not debating in good faith.

Every accusation is a confession.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Israel- has a right to defend itself and all you anti semites do is criticize Israel when it attacks, however not one of you says shit about the countries around it continuing to vote in terrorists and support terrorism. Israel is here to stay.
The enemies of Israel are the ones that dictate when death and destruction are sent their way.

Israeli settlements, and the expanding divide of settlers and Palestinians

Today, upwards of 700,000 Israelis live in settlements which the U.N. calls illegal. "Sunday Morning" talks with two settlers and with Palestinians in the West Bank living on opposite sides of an Israeli security barrier.

www.cbsnews.com