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RCs Pagoclone is surprisingly good

ketagoblin

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 23, 2022
Messages
29
I fell for the "perfect anxiety reliever" meme when Pyrazolam was all hyped up, the ability to reduce anxiety without much of sedation sounded too good to be true, and it failed to deliver, so I didn't have high hopes for this compound aswell
However I have to say I am pretty impressed. A dose of somewhere between 5-8mg was taken orally. It hit in just minutes, the headspace change was perceivable, felt like a very light benzo, yet as clearheaded/functional as could be.

The only issue is that I couldn't make a solution. When not touched, it looks like oil and water, refuses to mix, when I shake it it looks like a foggy hurricane. Used pure ethanol for solvent, I read someone had the same problem when using PG.
Do you think the solution is okay, I just have to shake it hard before measuring a dose?

Also what are your thoughts on Z-drug withdrawals? I am really liking this substance so I will find out likely
 
Any chance you tried etizolam? If not phenibut or pregabaline? If not prescription benzos? If so could you be so kind to compare it to those as I never tried pyrazolam.

As for the solution, if I was you, since you already dissolved it I would add some PG, some glycerine and some water too and than shake it before use. Well, I probably wouldn’t lol

Thing is when you shake it like that you are getting heterogeneous liquid mix of something but in practice it can/could be used as it’s homogeneous, IF it’s stays like that for some time and doesn’t get back to clear almost immediately as in that case there’s a layer of something at the bottom or the top of your solution. Hmmm….that’s not only option either. You might have heterogeneous liquid solution that’s dispersed, even unshaken for practical use like if it’s homogeneous and when you shake it you disperse it to finer parts. Or it could be…multiple substances dispersed in multiple ways...or...
 
As for the solution, if I was you, since you already dissolved it I would add some PG, some glycerine and some water too and than shake it before use. Well, I probably wouldn’t lol

Thing is when you shake it like that you are getting heterogeneous liquid mix of something but in practice it can/could be used as it’s homogeneous, IF it’s stays like that for some time and doesn’t get back to clear almost immediately as in that case there’s a layer of something at the bottom or the top of your solution. Hmmm….that’s not only option either. You might have heterogeneous liquid solution that’s dispersed, even unshaken for practical use like if it’s homogeneous and when you shake it you disperse it to finer parts. Or it could be…multiple substances dispersed in multiple ways...or...
I didn't dissolve it completely, I have 2 grams of the stuff, only put 450mg in the solution. You are indeed seeing the issue clearly. When shaken, it takes a good 3-4 minutes to fully return to their 2 separate layers.
What to do here? Would you say, in shaken form, it's more or less accurate to dose this solution?

Any chance you tried etizolam? If not phenibut or pregabaline? If not prescription benzos? If so could you be so kind to compare it to those as I never tried pyrazolam.
Haven't done etiz but I have done all the rest you have mentioned, pregabalin I did not like (had high hopes for it, bought a huge supply but only ever tried it 3 times). Not comparable for me, all it did was made me drowsy and slow
Phenibut is weird, it went from being subtle, to a really "in your face" type of high for me over the years. Pretty intense body high, uplifting pronounced mental effects, with a nasty hangover.

Pago's body high is in no way comparable to it; for me it feels almost identical to a light dose Clonazepam, with the mental effects being closer to something like Kratom?
I know pharmacologically speaking that doesn't make sense, but benzos have always been INCREDIBLY anti-social drugs for me, and phenibut's pro-social effects are too intense to be compared to Pago (Although not superior; I think the key word here is CASUAL.)
Pagoclone really feels like a drug you could casually take to curb anxiety without much decline in cognitive or social function.
 
I didn't dissolve it completely, I have 2 grams of the stuff, only put 450mg in the solution. You are indeed seeing the issue clearly. When shaken, it takes a good 3-4 minutes to fully return to their 2 separate layers.
What to do here? Would you say, in shaken form, it's more or less accurate to dose this solution?
So you can see it separate in 2 layers? In that case figure out what layer has all/most of the stuff.

Your best bet is to purify your substance in a one way or another. As you say you get 2 layers even dissolving stuff in absolute alcohol and discarding one layer would do fine. But maybe you got it in some form that doesn’t dissolve in ethanol at all/hardly and that’s the reason you get two layers and not impurities and/or low solubility of those in given solvent.
 
Pagoclone really feels like a drug you could casually take to curb anxiety without much decline in cognitive or social function.
Well fact it feels so doesn’t mean much. But at the same time it usually means something at least. O boy, wish I could try this.

Btw sry for my messed up explanation above of what you should do, drank a bit.
 
discarding one layer would do fine
I mean, one layer is the alcohol, and the other is the Pagoclone :ROFLMAO: it literally doesn't dissolve at all. But stays mixed for a decent duration when shaken hard. It's not properly dissolved, so no matter how shaken it won't be homogenous however it's my best bet with this solution, right?
Well fact it feels so doesn’t mean much. But at the same time it usually means something at least. O boy, wish I could try this.

Btw sry for my messed up explanation above of what you should do, drank a bit.
It's been a great while since last I've been this excited about a chem! Although I don't wanna get my hopes up; I tend to overrate every substance after only having 1 experience with them
 
For a while Nutt was hyping pagoclone as a safe alcohol alternative.

An Efficient and Cost-Effective Synthesis of Pagoclone​

Cite this: Org. Proc. Res. Dev. 2003, 7, 6, 851–855
Publication Date:September 17, 2003
https://doi.org/10.1021/op034060b

Looks like a bit of a pig to make if the above is considered both 'efficient' and 'cost-effective'

But the day of the benzo had to end and here comes a new raft of analogues.

SOMEONE will find an a5 selective one which should be much more like alcohol.

But always with the amide moiety....
 
Pagoclone causes strange optical hallucinations in higher doses. When used to counteract anxiety/paranoia from stims (pv´s and so on), this caused me not to only hear voices (as I do when psychotic on strong stims), but to also see the corresponding people and so on....that night took a strange scary turn to the even darker side of psychosis afterwards. not recommended. Its strange stuff
 
Fascinating insights. Pagoclone has a chiral centre and I noted that it's (+) pagoclone (I guess they used X-ray crystallography) that is the active anxiolytic. So MAYBE some of the unexpected effects are mediated by (-) i.e. (S) pagoclone?



Pubchem returns the racemate and the pure (S).

For people unfamiliar with the many tricks pharmaceutical companies employ, one is to gain a market licence for the racemate and JUST before their patent runs out, release studies showing that the chical compound is better... and get a NEW patent.

Citalopram, methylphenidate, sambutamol and a host of others pulled this trick.

Now researchers are replacing H with D at certain spots to increase duration of action (in the one case I know got an ML) but their was a lot of pushback because I don't think many had previously excluded D so a tiny fraction of the drug would have a D in the right spot anyway, In short, the people issuing patents declared that without strong evidence of an advantage, swapping a H for a D wouldn't get you a new patent.
 
I mean, one layer is the alcohol, and the other is the Pagoclone :ROFLMAO: it literally doesn't dissolve at all. But stays mixed for a decent duration when shaken hard. It's not properly dissolved, so no matter how shaken it won't be homogenous however it's my best bet with this solution, right?
Lol I thought otherwise. If so I would add something else in which pagoclone should be soluble as sometimes mixing more solvents results in a mixture that dissolves something better than each alone.
 
Adding Pagaclone to a cocktail could have very pro synergies

Like adding a low to moderate dose of Pagaclone a2/a3 subunit Anxiolytic to…..

Pagaclone
Pregabalin 150mg
Baclofen 10-30mg
Phenibut 1,000mg (3h onset)
Diazepam 10mg
Alprazolam 0.5mg
Cannabis Indica 2.5-5mg jel caps (very mild dose) like one deep haul off an L and held in long
 
Fascinating insights. Pagoclone has a chiral centre and I noted that it's (+) pagoclone (I guess they used X-ray crystallography) that is the active anxiolytic. So MAYBE some of the unexpected effects are mediated by (-) i.e. (S) pagoclone?



Pubchem returns the racemate and the pure (S).

For people unfamiliar with the many tricks pharmaceutical companies employ, one is to gain a market licence for the racemate and JUST before their patent runs out, release studies showing that the chical compound is better... and get a NEW patent.

Citalopram, methylphenidate, sambutamol and a host of others pulled this trick.

Now researchers are replacing H with D at certain spots to increase duration of action (in the one case I know got an ML) but their was a lot of pushback because I don't think many had previously excluded D so a tiny fraction of the drug would have a D in the right spot anyway, In short, the people issuing patents declared that without strong evidence of an advantage, swapping a H for a D wouldn't get you a new patent.

Reckit Beckinser certainly tried a similar trick with there 'only strips, 7 more yrs' campaign. Luckily they failed and if you had to pay for those out of pocket (in the US at least) there is or was a class action lawsuit ver it.

Citolapram tried that hey? otta keep that Celexa money.....it is messed up how hard these very very rich pharm companies fight very hard to screw their users/patients idk out of a ton of money.

not big on pyrazolam so I figure I wouldnt be on this either? Would it hold off benzo w/d?
 

Pagoclone Dosage (2-(7-chloro-1,8-naphthyridin-2-yl)-3-(5-methyl-2-oxohexyl)isoindolin-1-one):

Threshold Dosage: <150ug
Normal Dosage: 150ug - 600ug
Onset: Biphasic, first phase 30 minutes, second phase 120 minutes
Duration: 8 hours?
After Effects: 10 hours?

Be careful. pagoclone is not practical to deal with. Pagoclone does not readily dissolve in oil, water, or alcohol. Attempting to volumetrically dose with oil, water, or alcohol could result in highly inaccurate dosing. Volumetric dosing is possible with DMSO.

The effects are biphasic with significant differences from most benzodiazapines. Within a half hour I was in a kind of drunk place that was neither euphoric or dysphoric. Sleep was not easy within the first few hours. After a couple of hours then the experience became calmer and more reminiscent of benzodiazapines.

I agree with some of the research that there are more negative (or neutral) emotional effects than most benzodiazapines. Also worth noting, while higher doses have been researched and proven survivable (up to 4.8mg), I do not expect that such an overdose would be particularly pleasant and might involve a drunk fugeish meandering a few hours before calming down.
 
Hey that doesn t count up Pagoclone ime was or a waste or the vendor sold a bogus product. They go in 10 mg. pellets, 20 40 [mg] did nada. Are you sure you have Pagoclone [treshold 150 mcg ?] get it tested. my advise , your in NL right, free of charge.

Pyrazolam at least has barely noticeable benzo effects almost as good as Clobazam in mimicking.
and would hold of WD s, wouldn t count on Pagoclone for that seek medical help or buy something proven useful at least.

Btw we allready had a few less harmful Ethanol replacements, GHB/ GBL and Temazepam. So Nutt is just trying to fll his sack through a legal loophole.
 
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Hey that doesn t count up Pagoclone ime was or a waste or the vendor sold a bogus product. They go in 10 mg. pellets, 20 40 [mg] did nada. Are you sure you have Pagoclone [treshold 150 mcg ?]

Yes, I am sure. Be careful and see my post from an earlier thread. The Netherlands has a serious problem they are doing nothing about with wildly dosed sedative hypnotic research chemicals. Trolls online are rushing and putting inaccurate information on DrugsForum.nl and ruining things. We have our faces covered in soot, do nothing, and don't care because of a few trolls putting inaccurate information online in Dutch only forums. The discrepancies between English forums (American, UK, ect) and Dutch only forums is catastrophic.

You may have had bunk pellets, yet some of the Dutch greymarket pellets are at least 60 light doses per pellet with no safety guidelines or safe way to dose until you dissolve the pellet in solvent and dose out one pellet into 100+ drops. Who is the wild idiot allowing this?


Here are peer reviewed articles for reference.

https://www.biospace.com/indevus-ph...ual-new-clinical-drug-evaluation-unit-meeting

"The Phase II study, known as the EXPRESS trial, was an 8-week, placebo controlled, double-blind, multi-center trial with an open label extension. There were a total of 132 patients randomized in the trial. Eighty-eight patients received escalating doses of pagoclone from 0.3 mg to 0.6 mg per day. Forty-four patients received placebo. Seventy-nine percent of the patient population was male, which is reflective of the gender distribution of this disorder. Although open label treatment is not blinded, patients and investigators remained blinded to the original treatment allocation during the 8-week double-blind phase."



https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11565630/

"Pagoclone is a cyclopyrrolone that is believed to act as a partial agonist at the gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA)-A/benzodiazepine (BDZ) receptor. In theory, such partial agonists should be anxiolytic but lack the adverse side-effects of sedation, tolerance and withdrawal associated with full GABA-A/BDZ agonists. The objective of the randomized double-blind crossover study was to assess whether pagoclone was an effective anti-panic agent and also to assess its side-effect profile. Patients recruited had a diagnosis of Panic Disorder (DSM-IV) with at least one panic attack per week. Following a 2-week screening period, patients entered a 6-week trial consisting of two 2-week treatment periods, each followed by a 1-week washout. Patients were randomly assigned to receive either pagoclone 0.1 mg t.d.s. or placebo on their first treatment period and the converse on their second. The primary measure was daily panic attack dairy. Fourteen patients completed the study, the mean number of panic attacks during screening was 5.8+/-0.8 (SEM), this fell to 3.6+/-0.5 during treatment with pagoclone (p = 0.05) and 4.3+/-0.8 with placebo (p = 0.14). There was no significant difference on direct comparison of pagoclone with placebo or in any of the secondary measures (including Rickels withdrawal scale) or the adverse event profiles. The study provides preliminary evidence that pagoclone has anxiolytic properties in the absence of typical BDZ side-effects. This is consistent with its theoretical mode of action as a partial agonist at the GABA(A)/BDZ receptor."


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2515892/

Pagoclone (CI-1043, IP456) is a novel cyclopyrrolone that pharmacologically is a non selective partial GABAA receptor agonist. A main feature of partial agonists is the limited degree to which they open the ion channel. In comparison, full agonists afford complete opening, allowing uninhibited influx of Ca+ ions while occupying a relative low (~5%) percentage of receptors. Preclinical and clinical studies suggest that pagoclone may have clinical utility as an anxiolytic agent in the dose range of 0.15 mg BID to 0.6 mg BID, as well as reduced incidence of side-effects when compared to other conventional anxiolytics, specifically diazepam.
 
No explanation then that or the form used was the wrong isomere/ mislabeling / a a sorta like compound or inactive.

Never had it proper tested so i assumed i had 100 mg total. totally ineffective. Trusted vendor, you know the one.
So this is actually a drug you should treat with respect, not overindulge. Not like Alcohol though, the dose is so small.
Did have quite a GABA resistance att. Might have played a role.

And with this bizar weird difference in effects on 40 mg noted by me nothing vs research and your experience noticing effects at 0.3 mg

⚠️

Just curious if you have the Trimbos result s of their analisy s, an if share em. 0.5/ 1 mg Alprazolam is pretty sedating to me ,
so if 10 equals 20 mg that obvious something is wrong.
Then 2 who came with that Pagoclone Alprazolam equivalence ? , not Nutt. [a link would help]
 
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