Covid-19 Outbreak of new SARS-like coronavirus (Covid-19)

[Xorkoth]

Well yes I suppose it's a variety of assumptions, really. Some of my opinions are based on what I see. A lot of people have lost their jobs in America. For a while they got government aid and it was fine. Now they don't anymore, and are no longer protected from being evicted. This is highly damaging to many lives. Of course, so is dying from covid. I think there is an unclear line to walk to prevent the most harm. More severe lockdowns may be preferable in countries that value social safety nets and will support the population for the extent of the lockdown. Sadly this is not the case in America. Lack of ability to pay bills or buy food, and homelessness, are serious problems.

 

[novaveritas]

Is this an assumption?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to see the data to support it.

High death rates also have an impact on mental health. You say you know three people that died. I don't know anybody that died. I'd rather my friends and family not get sick and not die. I imagine people dying around me would be worse for my mental health than spending a couple of months in hard lock-down.

I would say the burden of proof is on the lockdown advocates to say that temporary delaying of transmission is worth the cost, because the virus will start transmitting again as soon as the restrictions are lifted. Have no illusion lockdown cannot solve the problem it is a can kicking excercise and a denial of the reality.
Like it or not the buying of a small amount of time has unfairly cost other people their lives.

Suicide rates have increased in several countries and the profile of those suicides has changed markedly

Male suicide rate hits two-decade high in England and Wales

Rate of 16.9 deaths per 100,000 in 2019 was highest since 2000, ONS data shows

www.theguardian.com

cancer diagnosis rates have fallen 40% in scotland and even more in other places

Fears of 'unnecessary deaths' as cancer diagnoses in Scotland fall 40% in lockdown

A 40 per cent plunge in the number of people diagnosed with cancer following the introduction of the initial coronavirus lockdown restrictions is "extremely worrying", charities have said.

www.scotsman.com

75k more Americans will die this year from diseases of dispair, 265 million more people globally will be thrown into poverty as a result of the lockdowns. If you want to listen to Robert Redfield of the CDC, he is not some rabid right wing loon but instead is a pragmatist.

“We’re seeing, sadly, far greater suicides now than we are deaths from Covid. We’re seeing far greater deaths from drug overdose, that are above excess, than we had as background, than we are seeing deaths from Covid.”

ttps://www.buckinstitute.org/covid-webinar-series-transcript-robert-redfield-md/

that is the balance that needs to be struck, the virus is not going anywhere it is easy for NZ or Aus to shut themselves away from the world and rock backward and forwards but how long is NZ planning to isolate itself? Not that the rest of the world are really missing either Aus or NZ, but many people are curious to see how long the Aus and NZ economy will stand for without the constant juice of foreign direct investment.

even the imbeciles at the WHO do not advocate hard lockdowns as a primary control measure, they are clearly far too destructive in every way.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

The England and Wales male suicide rate of 16.9 deaths per 100,000 was the highest since 2000 but remained in the line with the 2018 rate. The rate for women was 5.3 deaths per 100,000, the highest since 2004.

You need to examine fluctuations in suicide rates to determine if the suicide rate has risen significantly and whether or not the rise is in any way comparable to the number of people who are dying from COVID. I never said the suicide rate hasn't changed. I said I don't think it has changed dramatically. Furthermore, the UK is not a good example because they didn't do a hard lock-down. How many of the extra suicides resulted from the lack of lock-down relative to countries like Australia that contained the virus and have seen no increase in suicides? But, ignoring that let's have a look at suicide in the UK.

The link you posted was about 2019, not 2020. The female suicide rate in 2019 (5.3/100,000) is consistent with the female suicide rate for the past decade. It has hardly fluctuated. Whereas, the rate of male suicides has fluctuated significantly.

The male suicide rate in 2017 in the UK was 0.11/million.
The male suicide rate in 2018 was 1.12/million.
The male suicide rate in 2019 was 1.69/million.

So the male suicide rate in the UK has been rising steadily over the past four years. You need to take this into account when analyzing the 2020 suicide rate.

that is the balance that needs to be struck, the virus is not going anywhere it is easy for NZ or Aus to shut themselves away from the world and rock backward and forwards but how long is NZ planning to isolate itself? Not that the rest of the world are really missing either Aus or NZ, but many people are curious to see how long the Aus and NZ economy will stand for without the constant juice of foreign direct investment.

The New Zealand economy is suffering under the leadership of Jacinta Ardern more than it is suffering as a result of lock-down. Time will tell whether or not our economy suffers more than countries with high death rates, but I don't care. I'd rather my friends and family be alive and well.

As for how long we are planning to isolate, the vaccine should arrive in the next two months. Our economy will bounce back eventually. People (on the other hand) don't come back to life.

The Australian economy is doing pretty well, relative to the rest of the world. Sweden has taken a harder hit than Australia and the US has taken a much harder hit than NZ, Australia and Sweden combined.

75k more Americans will die this year from diseases of dispair,

75k < 265k (and counting)

265 million more people globally will be thrown into poverty as a result of the lockdowns.

As a result of the lock-downs, or as a result of COVID?

they are clearly far too destructive in every way.

It is not clear to me.

 

[sekio]

If some people don't experience first-hand the destruction and death that lockdowns are causing,

As opposed to the destruction and death the coronavirus is causing?
Yes, lockdowns are unpleasant, but the entire reason they are a thing is because they are a lesser evil than just letting a deadly virus run rampant in society.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Elderly people are going to die whether there's a lockdown or not

Besides, I'm from Vancouver, we're all antisocial homebodies here anyway.

 

[JessFR]

When I actually looked into it, I got the impression that rather than being a question of lockdowns and prioritizing health vs the economy, it was actually not one or the other but all or neither. That the places hurting worst economically were also the ones who did the least about covid and vice versa.

This was a while ago though so don't take this as gospel.

 

[AutoTripper]

CFC (an admin here in case you didn't know) got it, and was sick for months and still can't taste or smell properly, and has neurological problems (both are common among long-term side effects reported), involving difficulty with word recall and maybe more, I wouldn't as I'm not him, but that's what he's reported. And he's about 40 years old. Of course this doesn't say it's common for younger people to have long-term side effects, but it's a good example of it not just being the elderly and infirm.

That is indeed very unfortunate, and again sorry for your own personal losses.

As I told you before, I had covid myself. My mum did too. We both recovered from it fairly quickly with no lasting harm done, while my other coxsackie viruses took a lot lot more treatment and caused significantly more all round problems, inc.uding respiratory, and especially stomach, bowel and digestive related.

However, I did use my home electromedicine treatments to knock the Covid down, thereby keeping pneumonia at bay and more vivacious overall and specific side effects.

The electromedicine is a godsend to myself with virtually no immune system, and multiple frequent new respiratory infections. I really would not be living without it, it is no quackery I swear on my life a thousand times.

But the Covid responded quite quickly and easily to the electricity treatments.

The Neurological coxsackie viruses, have been a much harder task to combat, taking regular treatments for months to keep from raging into pneumonia and at a low level, until I was fortunately, finally able to get some effective all round treatment prescribed 5 weeks ago, (in-between Lockdowns, and only just, thank god because it honestly saved my life.)

I was due the medicine and testing in June. I also very badly needed a chirprocator from April, and accupuncture.

It was the direct result of being denied access to these treatments as a result of the UK lockdowns this year, which took me to literally an inch of losing my life.

Not making a point there. But Covid hit me, I was able to overcome it swiftly with my home treatments, which I wish so badly would be developed and employed by the mainstream for safely treating infection, especially respiratory- I also cured a heart viral infection, on two occasions, with a few short electricity treatments.

Both times saving my life AND preventing any lasting harm being done.

 

[novaveritas]

You need to examine fluctuations in suicide rates to determine if the suicide rate has risen significantly and whether or not the rise is in any way comparable to the number of people who are dying from COVID. I never said the suicide rate hasn't changed. I said I don't think it has changed dramatically. Furthermore, the UK is not a good example because they didn't do a hard lock-down. How many of the extra suicides resulted from the lack of lock-down relative to countries like Australia that contained the virus and have seen no increase in suicides? But, ignoring that let's have a look at suicide in the UK.

The link you posted was about 2019, not 2020. The female suicide rate in 2019 (5.3/100,000) is consistent with the female suicide rate for the past decade. It has hardly fluctuated. Whereas, the rate of male suicides has fluctuated significantly.

The male suicide rate in 2017 in the UK was 0.11/million.
The male suicide rate in 2018 was 1.12/million.
The male suicide rate in 2019 was 1.69/million.

So the male suicide rate in the UK has been rising steadily over the past four years. You need to take this into account when analyzing the 2020 suicide rate.

not only the rate but the profile of suicides has changed and that is what everyone noticed. The UK did a hard lock down for longer than most countries. and the spike in unusual suicides coincided with the lockdown.

How exactly is there a causal link between supposedly not doing a hard lock down and suicides? do people kill themselves because they really really wanted to be placed under house arrest or be prevented from seeing their loved ones? That speculation in any case falls down because the UK did a highly destructive pointless lockdown. non sequitur, NZ suicide rate did not change due to lockdown because the New Zealanders are already dead inside and didn't notice the theft of all their rights and the loss of their future freedom. After all a country that elects a Blairite non entity like Ardern are already zombies. Are you going to address how coronavirus cures cancer whilst you are at it?

The New Zealand economy is suffering under the leadership of Jacinta Ardern more than it is suffering as a result of lock-down. Time will tell whether or not our economy suffers more than countries with high death rates, but I don't care. I'd rather my friends and family be alive and well.

As for how long we are planning to isolate, the vaccine should arrive in the next two months. Our economy will bounce back eventually. People (on the other hand) don't come back to life.

They don't come back when they died of cardio or cancer either. Not every country has the luxury of being 6 people and some sheep on an island far far way. NZ is not a model for any advanced country that is globally interconnected and networked. You isolate and can rejoin the world when you stop shaking and get out from under the couch. Other countries do not have that option. it comes at a high price, NZ did not meet norms of behaviour when they blocked safe harbor and medical provision for the cruise ships and that will always be a disgrace clearly showing what NZ really is about.

75k < 265k (and counting)

but you know 265K is dead with coronavirus and not dead of covid right? and in terms of QALY the inpact of the 75k is much much greater than 265k even if that 265k was correct. That is the math you need to be doing. Simplistic spouting of stats without nuance really doesn't cut it. Right now people are turning up in hospital with far more advanced cardiovascular problems, advanced cancers which should have been dealt with 6 months ago. That is the reality I see. many of those people will suffer and die needlessly and that suffering and death can be laid at the door of stupidty. In the future we will be able to calculate the exact numbers but right now this is a real thing for what? to delay deaths to make it look like politicians and their laws can stop a force of nature. The virus doesn't care. The reaper doesn't care either.

As a result of the lock-downs, or as a result of COVID?



It is not clear to me.

Well it is not the virus that is destroying peoples jobs, destroying whole sectors of the economy, preventing them from earning and feeding their children is it?
No, it is the clumsy response by governments. As I said a long time ago the problem is not the virus, the problem is governments doing stupid shit trying to defeat a virus which turned out as expected to be the same order of magnitude of threat as good ol influenza.

The fear that has been whipped up is clouding peoples rational judgement, the press and the politicians have used that fear to advance some very dark schemes. You can move people by fear or trust, the establishment institutions had already burned what little trust and credibiltity that remained so that leaves only fear.

The burden of proof is on those advocating doing lockdowns to show that they are proportionate justified and effective, something that those same advocates cannot do or have chosen not to. The evidence points towards them not being effective in normal societies, even China was very careful with lockdowns after the initial response which was extreme. The WHO is not in favor of hard lockdowns. Eventually the sack cloth and ashes lockdown advocates will also drift to the same conclusion, Donald Henderson who knew a thing about disease control was right long before the current outbreak of stupidity. We narrowly avoided a similar level of stupidity with H1N1, but unfortunately this time the politicians didn't listen to the voices of experience but listened to the shrill screeching media.

 

[JGrimez]

This is what some people have trouble differentiating - the effects of the virus and the effects of the government rules (people falsely attribute the negative results of lockdowns to the VIRUS instead of the GOVERNMENT).

The average age of death from COVID-19 is higher than the average age of death. The average age of death from COVID-19 is higher than the average age of death. The average age of death from COVID-19 is higher than the average age of death.
People who are above the average age of death have a higher risk of dying from things that are the cause of death for people above the average age of death.

 

[JGrimez]

Kansas issued a statewide mask mandate on July 2nd, although most small counties didn’t adopt it, while the major cities did.
Missouri and Oklahoma have no statewide mandate, but some or most major cities adopted masks.
See what a huge difference it all makes?

One example of how, in the early days, populations were recklessly hystericized by governments who, it can be reasonably assumed, did so for motives that did not involve public health.
Read the headline and then the bullet points and consider that:
Ireland has had 2,000 "covid deaths" over 9 months. That's 7 people per day.
There are 1,600 deaths, on average, every day from all causes in the country).
Social distancing, masks and lockdowns have been proven to have little or no impact on viral spread.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@novaveritas

You could be right, but at this point in time no data is available to support your argument that more people are going to die as a result of lock-downs than coronavirus. Prove me wrong. Provide the data and we can discuss it. Everything else is just speculation.

I would appreciate it if you stop making racist comments about New Zealand.

I've been a member of this forum for less than month and already people have said NZ is an irrelevant island full of idiots and zombies who are dead inside and we're too ignorant to have an opinion on international politics. Would you say this to me if I was from Samoa? Do you make racist comments about African Americans?

I'd appreciate it if you treat us with a little respect.

Thanks.

 

[novaveritas]

@novaveritas

You could be right, but at this point in time no data is available to support your argument that more people are going to die as a result of lock-downs than coronavirus. Prove me wrong. Provide the data and we can discuss it. Everything else is just speculation.

I would appreciate it if you stop making racist comments about New Zealand.

I've been a member of this forum for less than month and already people have said NZ is an irrelevant island full of idiots and zombies who are dead inside and we're too ignorant to have an opinion on international politics. Would you say this to me if I was from Samoa? Do you make racist comments about African Americans?

I'd appreciate it if you treat us with a little respect.

Thanks.

you know what a non sequitur is right?
look it up and feel free to revert.

respect is earned.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

The average age of death from COVID-19 is higher than the average age of death. The average age of death from COVID-19 is higher than the average age of death. The average age of death from COVID-19 is higher than the average age of death.

The life expectancy rises as people get older. The life expectancy of someone who is older than the national life expectancy is not negative.

People who are above the average age of death have a higher risk of dying from things that are the cause of death for people above the average age of death.

What you're saying is nonsensical.

Look at Missouri and Oklahoma. Look at Ireland. Don't look at all the other places in the world that don't support what I'm saying. Just focus on these places.

*I paraphrased.

Ireland has 410/million deaths.
New Zealand has 5/million.
Australia has 35/million.

Social distancing, masks and lockdowns have been proven to have little or no impact on viral spread.

That is the most ridiculous thing you've said so far.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

respect is earned.

I try to always treat people with respect, but I'm not perfect.
Ideally, respect is my default setting.
It was a polite request.
To each their own.

Still waiting on that suicide/cancer data.

 

[JGrimez]

You blatantly and gratuitously cherry-pick and then tell others to stop doing the same thing.

I'm not surprised that someone who still supports lockdowns has trouble assessing information in totality, in context and without government propaganda influencing their thinking.

Seriously imagine STILL supporting lockdowns???

At this point I must assume it's a lot of people who are doubling down, afraid to admit that they were wrong, that the governments were wrong, and that they have been tacitly supporting state-sanctioned murder and the concerted destruction of their own societies.

Time will show these people the error of their ways.

 

[novaveritas]

burden of proof is on the lockdown advocates, prove that these measures are justified, proportionate and don't cause more harm than good. Lockdown infringes fundemental liberties and human rights and restricts the rights of healthy people. The default position therefore is for you advocates to prove that lockdowns work and do not cause more harm than the harm they supposedly avoid

You can't.
Primum non nocere

 

[Hylight]

oh yeah. and who remembers when they all thought 9eleven wasn't an inside job.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I'm not cherry picking. You are.
You're also making absurd claims.

Arguing that lock-downs might kill more people via suicide or cancer (like @novaveritas) is not absurd. He/she could well be right. Arguing that the impact on the economy is worse in the long run than reducing the death rate (short term) is also possibly true.

Social distancing, masks and lockdowns have been proven to have little or no impact on viral spread.

With all due respect, this statement is insane.

 

[Hylight]

too much government mixed in with true facts. ♡

 

[birdup.snaildown]

burden of proof is on the lockdown advocates, prove that these measures are justified, proportionate and don't cause more harm than good.

Nobody can prove what will happen in the future. As I said, you might be right. The current data doesn't show that you are, but that might be because the current data can't tell us what is going to happen long term. You are insisting that you are correct. I am saying, you might be correct but we will have to wait and see. I can prove that it helps short term. You can't prove that it does more harm long term, yet. Time will tell.

Lockdown infringes fundemental liberties and human rights and restricts the rights of healthy people.

Yes, it does.

The default position therefore is for you advocates to prove that lockdowns work and do not cause more harm than the harm they supposedly avoid

What you are requesting is impossible. See above.

 

[Hylight]

the higher quality of the mask equals better prophylactic.