Opiod conditioning/priming?

[S'wayne]

Just a question I thought I could get some good answers to here.

I often go through periods of a week or so of moderate daily opioid use, followed by a pretty manageable withdrawal for a few days, then a week or so of abstaining.

One thing that confuses me, upon my return to use (specifically hydrocodone), the very first couple of days I don't get the usual euphoria I'm seeking hardly at all. If it makes any difference, when I use it is once per day, usually 20-50 mgs, 50mg being after a week into it. The third day for some reason I finally get my "max" euphoria, the fourth day good as well, then from there it dwindles down even as the dose increases.

I am just wondering why on the first day the effects wouldn't be the strongest? Does something have to build up, or does your system need to change somehow to be more receptive to the drug? Do you need to be primed or slightly conditioned to really get anything good out of it?

This time, I have had about 10 days with nothing, and first day back took 30 mgs, with little euphoria, a strange buzz that really isn't the greatest. Day two, grapefruit juice and 30 mgs, minimal euphoria. Tomorrow, I am quite certain from experience that I could likely go 20 mg, and get more euphoria the third day in with less than I took the last couple days.

Does anyone else experience something similar, and does anyone know why this might be?

Thanks folks...

 

[sekio]

Probably dose sensitization, it happens in mice. But it's hard to tell because euphoria is rather hard to quantitate.

A 50mg hydrocodone dose should be mostly eliminated after 24h, so I don't think the drug is building up in your system or anything.

 

[max_]

I have had the same happen to me when I used in a similar fashion to yours. I think this is because of a little tolerance building up. Once you get past the sleepy phase is when you start to actually enjoying them.

 

[pofacedhoe]

the euphoria from opiates goes very quickly, after a few days you are under the influence but its not euphoric any more. for me this happens very quickly. i also find the withdrawls from poppy tea when tappered not really that bad at all apart from the overactive bowels

 

[sekio]

Add -> od

 

[DonStatus]

Yeah tolerance tolerance tolerance.

I remember one of my first good highs off Oxycodone orally, and boy talk about Euphoria. I was literally in my bed playing xbox moaning of the endorphin release, felt almost like really really really good MDMA. That time was def enough to get it's evil hooks into me, that high was just so incredible.

I can only imagine that first IV high, but I've never and never will touch a needle in my life.

Good thing too

 

[DaftPunkFan]

Yeah I was wondering the same thing. If I take a couple week break, I'll take 20-25mg and feel alright, but not amazing. Then if I take the same dose a few days later, I feel pretty amazing...

Sorry I don't have an answer for you lol, I'm curious too. Same thing happens to me. You'd think after a week break or so you'd be flying off a lower dose, but that never seems to happen

 

[mindtools]

I don't know the exact pharmacology of the effect described, but have you tried splitting your dose in, eg. 15mg and 2h later 25mg?

I once made myself some opium and after ingesting it (orally) I felt alright. Then (like 3h later) I did some more, and after that I was nodding hardcore

 

[S'wayne]

I don't know the exact pharmacology of the effect described, but have you tried splitting your dose in, eg. 15mg and 2h later 25mg?

I once made myself some opium and after ingesting it (orally) I felt alright. Then (like 3h later) I did some more, and after that I was nodding hardcore

I usually dose all at once, the few times I have tried taking more later seemed to have been a waste, though I should give it another shot with no bias.

Still my question remains, why would someone have to develop an initial tolerance before really feeling the effects of the drug more fully? Seems strange...

 

[DooMMooD]

Only thing I can think of is relating to becoming accustomed to it.

Like....in addition to pharmacological tolerance, there is a mental one as well. Example: after those first times smoking pot, the high is different. Even if you take a decade off from smoking, it will never go back to the same as those first few times. Why? Because youre mentally prepared for it. You know what to expect, what its like, etc etc.

So I am postulating something similar in reverse. Opiate/benzo highs, for people who it is NOT their Drug of Choice (DOC), the highs are more subtle, not as pronounced. its not like taking a few hits of acid, which even a person who has never done drugs before will notice. The feeling is more subtle, not 'in your face', and you have to look for it. SO! Maybe that first time you don't notice it as much because your body is "searching for a comparison" so to speak.

That is, the first time you get high again, your brain is searching for a reference point, to determine "what this should be like", so to speak. By time #2 and 3, especially with increased dose (although by no means a requirement in regards to these ideas), your brain has more than enough 'reference points'. By that 3rd time or whatever, even with LESS of a dose, your brain can recognize the high more immediately and more distinctly; in short, you have prepared yourself mentally.

This is all just theory, albeit grounded in personal experience as well as fact, but theory nonetheless. Take from it what you will

 

[mindtools]

^Maybe, but see that OP and other who feel this way have had at least some experience with opiates before. They did it number of times and (as I understand) the phenomenon repeats itself.
I'd rather believe that it's physiological than psychological explanation, but of course I'm not sure.

PS. With Tramadol I have the other way around - first day I can take 200mg and it is better than 500mg 3 days after.
PS. 2 I started with opiates by taking codeine. I didn't feel too much the first 15 or 20 times (I know this figure isn't usual). Then it hit me

 

[DooMMooD]

I'm just curious as to why you would rather believe that?

To me it implies the exact opposite. While he had experience before, he took massive breaks in between, meaning his tolerance should be ~0

 

[mindtools]

Just a question I thought I could get some good answers to here.
I often go through periods of a week or so of moderate daily opioid use, followed by a pretty manageable withdrawal for a few days, then a week or so of abstaining.

That's no way for the tolerance to go to ~~0. I'm not even sure if after a year you could say that opiate tolerance vanishes.
Why do I think it's rather physiological: the difference in the states he describes (eg. between the 1st and 3rd day of using) seem too high. His brain should "remember" how the high feels like.

I'd also like to remind that I'm not defending scientific facts, just loose assumptions

 

[S'wayne]

That's no way for the tolerance to go to ~~0. I'm not even sure if after a year you could say that opiate tolerance vanishes.
Why do I think it's rather physiological: the difference in the states he describes (eg. between the 1st and 3rd day of using) seem too high. His brain should "remember" how the high feels like.

I'd also like to remind that I'm not defending scientific facts, just loose assumptions

I'm preferring to think it's not pyschological also, I know the mind is a powerful thing but this is something I have experienced as long as I can remember, and this level of opioid use has been like this for years for me, when I do abstain it's because I run out. I only notice physical symptoms such as yawning, body aches, tiredness, for about 3-4 days, then it's mostly gone and that is where I assume tolerance starts to go back towards zero.

I don't understand all of the mechanisms behind tolerance, but I find it hard to believe it would take a year for tolerance to go back to zero. I don't think a heroin addict after a 6 month break should consider having any tolerance at all, I imagine if they went anywhere near a former heavy usage dose it would be over for them.

However I imagine there may be changes in the brain that may take a long long time to fully get back to normal, I wonder if the brain would ever fully go back as it was before opioids, not that the change is damage, but it still could be a negative thing.

Anyway back to the original issue. What if any could be the mechanism that might cause an off-and-on but regular opioid user to not quite get the signature effect sought the first 2-3 doses back into regular use? Is it possible some initial tolerance is needed to really get the full effect? And as a side issue is it possible that when this euphoria is surfacing more a couple days in, that this is when the physical addiction is first beginning to establishing itself?

 

[DooMMooD]

^ would be a good theory except 1 small fact:

You pick up right where you left off. Any addict will tell you that. After a year, 2 years, 10 years, it doesn't matter, once you've used again for a few days, your tolerance is RIGHT BACK WHERE IT WAS BEFORE YOU QUIT.

Meaning there is obviously something more than physical aspects at play. A large psychological aspect is inherent with these scenarios. And I will attest to that first hand. After my last LONG BREAK (sober), I used opiates again and within 3-5 days i was using the exact same amounts that I was before I quit. Meaning it was way more than just the physical tolerance; obviously a large mental component is at play as well.

 

[Mercc96]

Opiate euphoria is interesting for me because I find 'returning' to opiates far more euphoric then simply using them. Although I have a chronic pain condition that seems to be getting worse- which of course creates more of a reward and incentive anyway. I find that not using opiates for a while ( and feeling like total shit the entire duration) than returning back to my much beloved opiates to be so very rewarding. Whilst the rewards are somewhat diminishing overtime I definetly cannot see myself ever completely off opiates.

 

[opiejim]

YOU SHOULD READ ALL OF THIS SUPER LONG POST
A lot of the replies to this thread hold some solid points that I agree with but as always there are a few poorly informed responses. With that said I will not be quoting anyone to avoid any possible issues. I have been surfing bluelight for several years and when I read this post I decided I should just make an account so that I can begin to share my knowledge and perspective on forum topics. As some of you will probably observe this is my first post on here. Don't. Be too hard on me I'm not used to posting here. If I am making any mistakes than please do not hesitate to say something. (I did actually read forum rules tho)

I would like to start out by saying that I am only 19 years old but i am very knowledgable especially when it comes to opiates. I have repeatedly been through the cycle of being an opiate addict and I am one hundred percent certain that I have experienced the same thing that the OP is talking about. However I usually attribute a lame opiate experience to one or more of many variables. Something that I was very suprised by was that no one took several important things into consideration.


The first thing. The amound of food in the persons stomach definately makes a significant difference if the opiate is being taken orally. Based on my experience with opiates I would defiantely say that someone who hasn't eaten in 5+ hours is going to absorb that opiate much faster and the experience will be more intense than if they were to ingest the opiate on a full stomach. The more intense experience would also not last as long. This is a very similar comparison to snorting opies compared to taking them orally. I have found that the effects of the opiate can begin in around 17-25 minutes on an empty stomach. I always say that oral consumption on a VERY empty stomach is like a middle ground of snorting and normal ingestion.(alright maybe its still closer to taking it than snorting but it makes a large difference). I have another theory that more or less relates to stomach contents and that is blood sugar. I am not very educated on blood sugar levels and the effect on the body but I do know that having low blood sugar levels can alter a mary jane high so I just thought this could make a difference as well. Blood ph and ph of the stomach/intestinal fluids could also change the absorbtion/experience I suppose.

Second thing: possible drug interactions. Regardless of whether the person was intentionally causing drug interactions (such as taking potentiators like benadryl, milk thistle, etc...) or unknowingly experiencing drug ineractions (such as taking a different prescribed medication) this could definately have an effect on the experience.

My third reason is the psycological aspect of doing opiates and the potential effects of a persons mindset. Stress/anxiety levels could effect the experience perhaps making some feel more euphoria because of the contrast of going from being stressed as hell to peacefully numbed. With that said, a stress/anxiety free person would more than likely feel slightly less euphoric because of that lack of contrast. OP is it possible that you are more stressed on those days of the week when you end up feeling more euphoric?
There is a second side to the mental aspect of this issue and that is what you can handle. I will explain it like this: the first time I ever took 30mg oxy with no tolerance I was wayyyy too messed up. I'm talking about walking around at a party with my close friends saying I look dead and constantly asking if I need help. Now a days I can handle 40-45 mg with absolutely zero tolerance no problem. I am just able to handle more now that I have done much higher doses. Oh and OP I'm certain that you are slowly but surely increasing your tolerance if you are dosing yourself like that. You should really wait longer between opiate binges especially if your tolerance is high enough that you are experiencing w/d. Might I suggest using potentiators to decrease your opiate dose?

Plenty of users of hallucinogenic drugs talk about set and setting. Now when tripping set and setting are far more important than when doing opies but that doesn't mean you can't apply the same rules. I already talked about the (mind)set part in my last paragraph so now I will discuss setting. I have consistently found in my experience that if you are on opiates while moving around(pretty much anything besides staying in tthe same spot) you are going to stop feeling as euphoric as you would if you were ummm let's say nodding out on a couch. Another factor relating to setting is the temperature or rather your ability to maintain an ideal body temperature. Opiates make it hard for your body to keep itself cool and I have ALWAYS found that the hotter I get when under the influence of opiates the less euphoria I feel. I even start feeling sick if I get too overheated and I have vomited on a multiple occasions from taking large opiate doses and not staying cool (well sometimes it has to do with the fact that I've been downing GFJ all night). Now I avoid heat like the plague

The last key variable that I have to point out is the fatigue factor. One of my greatest most memorable opiate experiences was from taking 3 oxy 5's (I've now taken single doses at least 12x larger than that dose). I had been awake for approximately 32hrs when I took that 15mg dose and the euphoria was minimum double the euphoria of a normal opiate experience for me. There have been plenty of times where being very tired increased the euphoria for me but that time is the most prominent.

I guess that's all... just some things to consider

 

[MartinFn]

To opiejim: well fuckin yeah, this is a really great first post..you're 19 years old, but you think (and write) like an experience and clever user..welcome to Bl and keep writing posts like this, i think these kind of posts have much to give. Once again welcome opiejim, hope you'll have a nice time..%)

MartinFn
PS:About the last thing you wrote, staying awake works as a very fuckin good potentiator for me too..

 

[S'wayne]

opiejim I liked the response, very thorough, keep posting!.

And I agree with about everything you said, though I must say I have considered most all of what you mentioned even if I had not posted it. For example as a rule I almost always dose on an empty stomach, I tend to eat one big meal at the end of the day with a rare small bite throughout. As for the psychological aspect, usually after a break I tend to be anxious before dosing simply because by that point I've been waiting and wanting. I find the one point you made very interesting, that the first time you did a 30mg oxy it slammed you, but now being experienced you could take no opies for a year and handle a 30 like nothing now. Must agree with the fatigue, being tired from work and school grind, doesn't take much to bring a nice nod

Still however, I feel like there is more at play here. The original post was written almost a year ago, and looking back I feel I can fortify and clarify this picture. My original post was probably my example at the time though not totally accurate (don't often go 7 days with 0 opioid), but I can better draw it up this way: My use is more comprehensive than originally stated, in other words periods of complete abstinence may occur 3 maybe 4 times a month, defined as 3 or more days off w/mild withdrawal then waking up and feeling "right" through the day. It is at that point that if I get a few, and say take a nice 50mg of hydro hoping to blast off with no tolerance, it's always seems a dud. But If I taper down to 10mg hydro a day, and take 50mg all at once I'm guaranteed great euphoria. Another poster mentioned that even a week off wouldn't equal 0 tolerance, I find that interesting and surely true in a certain way, as opiejim noticed himself, perhaps once you are not opioid naive, perhaps you always have some sort of tolerance. But relatively speaking, am I wrong to assume that once the acute withdrawal phase is over, tolerance is relatively back to zero in that you can experience the same consistent euphoria that you usually do from a given dose? That seems to be the pattern I see for me, despite the aberrant first day back in.

 

[edzeppelin]

This is an old thread, and maybe this would be better placed elsewhere, but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.

A year or two ago, there was a particularly good type of Kratom around called Red Kalimantan(sometimes with a 2% next to it). I started taking this when I got out of work, tired after a tough day, about ten grams. Well after 20 minutes or so I would fall asleep with the TV on, which is not unusual for me after work. But after taking the Kratom, I would wake up after 30 minutes or so, and just listen to the TV with my eyes still closed. On several oocasions, I started getting waves of euphoria rushing through my body. Totally amazing. Now I know what The Nod™ is and why it is so sought after. But it never would have happened if it weren't for being tired, dosing off, and waking and listening to the TV with my eyes closed. And yeah, I know my tolerance is low(nodding off Kratom?), but it wouldn't happen just sitting there watching TV. This is something special about opies, kind of like a k-hole with ketamine, which has similar requirements, and those that never experience it will never know.