Opioids Opiate/opioid WD's - which are worst?

[bwanajzj]

Based on a 1-5 scale, which opiate/opioid produces the worst wd's using the following criteria:
Duration (Acute/PAWS) - ?/?
Physical discomfort - ?
Psychological cravings/discomfort - ?

Add your own criteria too... this is just to get a discussion started.

 

[bwanajzj]

Personally I am trying to kick methadone (and evt. clonazepam) atm. I jumped off methadone a couple of times, and it produces the worst wd's imaginable, in my oppinion - especially coupled with benzo wd's. Worse than buprenorphine, diamorphine, morphine, codeine, dihydrocodeine, etc. etc. etc. I would choose heroin wd's anyday. So why are so many clinics still allowed to dispense it? Why can't we get a less harmful substance such as morphine or diacetylmorphine just as easy? And although buprenorphine looks promising, and has helped many, we can't foresee the long-term side-effects of it. Neither with methadone - which btw was created in Germany under Nazi rule due to a shortage of other, some aforementioned, preferred opiates, such as morphine; these pain-killers were needed in the warfield and hospitals. Along with other drugs, like methamphetamine - haha... and all this is not to incur any negative notion towards Germans or present-day citizens of the country, merely to prove a point that methadone is not a miracle, but a much too strong coincidental alternative to the more desired, and less harmful opiates from the poppy.

 

[Phat5o]

worst in all catagories for me was oxycodone. the paws were incredilbly cruel to me after an 8 year binge without break. i don't think i've actually detoxed from a specific opioiod besides oxy, hydrocodone and tramadol. i've been on buprenorphine for prolonged periods of time but before quitting i'd always be on a harder opioid for a couple of months.

 

[Jabberwocky]

oxy. for sure. it fucks with me every time. i'm trying to beat it now with absolutely no luck. if i didnt have a load of lopermide i'd be shitting constantly and im so fucking angry i could punch a wall in - but i won't because i'm civilised. god almighty who would have thought those tiny pills could cause such misery when you stop taking them!?

in all honesty though from friends experience with methadone - even taking it once threw them into withdrawal for about a week, and it was one of the most unpleasant parts of their life to date. one was a pretty small girl, she was in bed all week, sweating constantly and only getting out of bed to shit and take a shower. thats after one frickin dose. i don't see how anyone could come off that stuff. nazi's definately made it for people to get hooked on- BASTARDS!

 

[OntarioGuy]

Personally I am trying to kick methadone (and evt. clonazepam) atm. I jumped off methadone a couple of times, and it produces the worst wd's imaginable, in my oppinion - especially coupled with benzo wd's. Worse than buprenorphine, diamorphine, morphine, codeine, dihydrocodeine, etc. etc. etc. I would choose heroin wd's anyday. So why are so many clinics still allowed to dispense it? Why can't we get a less harmful substance such as morphine or diacetylmorphine just as easy? And although buprenorphine looks promising, and has helped many, we can't foresee the long-term side-effects of it. Neither with methadone - which btw was created in Germany under Nazi rule due to a shortage of other, some aforementioned, preferred opiates, such as morphine; these pain-killers were needed in the warfield and hospitals. Along with other drugs, like methamphetamine - haha... and all this is not to incur any negative notion towards Germans or present-day citizens of the country, merely to prove a point that methadone is not a miracle, but a much too strong coincidental alternative to the more desired, and less harmful opiates from the poppy.

SO I hear this all the time...

I myself was maintained on Oxycodone,Morphine and Dilaudid in the past (all at different times).I've also been on methadone 4 times.

In my experience,being maintained on more "abusable" opioids, like ones that you IV,is not as good as methadone.When I was maintaining on a daily dispense of morphine that I was shooting,all I cared about was waiting for the pharmacy to open again the next day.

I was also shooting speed and coke, anything really.

I was unproductive,not interested in work or personal hygiene.Since I've been on a stable methadone dose, I got a job and have motivation.I've given up IV drug use for 2 years now.

I also think that if tapered properly under medical supervision,methadone withdrawal shouldn't be that bad.I would personally taper down to 1 mg or less before the jump.

I have also suffered full on methadone w/d and personally didn't find it near as bad as the w/d of mainling 600 mg's of morphine per day.

 

[thelastclubkid]

SO I hear this all the time...

I myself was maintained on Oxycodone,Morphine and Dilaudid in the past (all at different times).I've also been on methadone 4 times.

In my experience,being maintained on more "abusable" opioids, like ones that you IV,is not as good as methadone.When I was maintaining on a daily dispense of morphine that I was shooting,all I cared about was waiting for the pharmacy to open again the next day.

I was also shooting speed and coke, anything really.

I was unproductive,not interested in work or personal hygiene.Since I've been on a stable methadone dose, I got a job and have motivation.I've given up IV drug use for 2 years now.

I also think that if tapered properly under medical supervision,methadone withdrawal shouldn't be that bad.I would personally taper down to 1 mg or less before the jump.

I have also suffered full on methadone w/d and personally didn't find it near as bad as the w/d of mainling 600 mg's of morphine per day.

this^^^

methadone gets a real bad rap but from a maintainance aspect it is probably the *best* choice... the hal life of blood plasma levels is a well known indicator of how addictive a drug will be as far as psychological effects on the bodies reward systems... opiates with short half live like morphine or heroin have people concerned every few hours with taking their dose... with methadone its a once a day thing and its stable... MMT *worked* for me.... taught me the responsibility to handle myself and take care of things... i never actually quit other drugs but i can control my use (granted it took 15 years...) and i havent touched illicit opiates since my 2nd year on methadone... after 13 years on methadone and no illicit opiates my brain has simply stopped caring about them in any way...

and yes the trick to detoxing off of methadone is to taper to as low a dose as possible... 1-2 mg... i had to jump at 2 because thats where the WD's started anyway half way through the day but at least it was a managable WD... (dont get me wrong it still sucked) but i could handle it... heroin WD's on the other hand had me going crazy 36 hours in because of the intensity...

 

[KillSurfCity]

oxy withdrawals are definitely the worst withdrawals i have ever experienced from any opiate (and i am a long time user of all opiates. some of my friends call me "the mother superior" like in trainspotting. hah). oxy has and will always be my favorite. on an 80 mg dose at this very moment. took it about 20 minutes ago. starting to feel pretty peachy. :D i was about to have to take a suboxone but my connect hit me up this morning literally as i was cutting a strip. oxy withdrawals usually only last about 4 days for me (the worst of them) and are over with by 7 days tops but they are AWFUL and usually include me being filled with rage, lot's of diarrhea, vomiting and dry heaving. the pain is absolutely absurd. feel like i have the worst flu ever. incredibly antsy, no use in even TRYING to sleep. suicidal thoughts. extreme depression. out of this world anxiety. inability to do anything but lay in bed or on the couch and watch movies. as for worst withdrawals i have ever experienced from any drug? benzos. i've been taking 2mg klonopin two to three times daily for four years now and i ran out five days early when i accidentally washed a pair of pants that my remaining pills were in. i searched all over the city for benzos and for some reason could not find ANY xanax or the like and could NOT get the lazy idiot receptionists at my doctor's office to refill it for me early (she was too lazy to give my doctor the memo. my mom came over to my house and when she saw me she decided to go into the office and tell them i was at home in bed screaming and talking to people who weren't there) apparently the bitch receptionist who spent most her time eating fruit pies and making snarky remarks has since been fired) did not understand that benzo withdrawals can KILL. so day 4 of no klonopin and i was an absolute wreck: i was knocking shit over, throwing up, my vision was altered in a very strange and uncomfortable manner...had no muscle coordination, was suffering maaaajor tachycardia (resting pulse 120-140 bpm), hot and cold sweats, EXTREME body aches, hallucinating (and i don't mean fun hallucinations like you may get from a few hits of blotter, i mean seeing fully materialized people with guns and knives in my room while i was curled up in bed. i tried to take a shower and when i pulled back the curtain, a slaughtered body was lying in the tub., i suffered 2 seizures (at least), and i was absolutely mental.
Oxy withdrawals suck ASS but they are NOTHING compared to benzo WD.

 

[laCster]

Basically your body can't differentiate between one mu agonist to another. What differs is the relative strength of the opiate to bind to receptors and duration of action.

Longer and stronger opiates produce more intense wd. Methadone being a prime example as it is arguably the worst opiate to withdrawal from due to its strong affinity, long duration, and multiple mechanisms of actions other than opiate action.

 

[hefe1313]

It's all in the person's perception, but I would say
Oxycodone. the withdraws are hell on earth

 

[Phat5o]

this^^^

methadone gets a real bad rap but from a maintainance aspect it is probably the *best* choice... the hal life of blood plasma levels is a well known indicator of how addictive a drug will be as far as psychological effects on the bodies reward systems... opiates with short half live like morphine or heroin have people concerned every few hours with taking their dose... with methadone its a once a day thing and its stable... MMT *worked* for me.... taught me the responsibility to handle myself and take care of things... i never actually quit other drugs but i can control my use (granted it took 15 years...) and i havent touched illicit opiates since my 2nd year on methadone... after 13 years on methadone and no illicit opiates my brain has simply stopped caring about them in any way...

and yes the trick to detoxing off of methadone is to taper to as low a dose as possible... 1-2 mg... i had to jump at 2 because thats where the WD's started anyway half way through the day but at least it was a managable WD... (dont get me wrong it still sucked) but i could handle it... heroin WD's on the other hand had me going crazy 36 hours in because of the intensity...

for maintenance, do you really believe methadone is a better choice than buprenorphine? and if you do, for what reasons? just curious

oxy withdrawals are definitely the worst withdrawals i have ever experienced from any opiate (and i am a long time user of all opiates. some of my friends call me "the mother superior" like in trainspotting. hah). oxy has and will always be my favorite. on an 80 mg dose at this very moment. took it about 20 minutes ago. starting to feel pretty peachy. :D i was about to have to take a suboxone but my connect hit me up this morning literally as i was cutting a strip. oxy withdrawals usually only last about 4 days for me (the worst of them) and are over with by 7 days tops but they are AWFUL and usually include me being filled with rage, lot's of diarrhea, vomiting and dry heaving. the pain is absolutely absurd. feel like i have the worst flu ever. incredibly antsy, no use in even TRYING to sleep. suicidal thoughts. extreme depression. out of this world anxiety. inability to do anything but lay in bed or on the couch and watch movies. as for worst withdrawals i have ever experienced from any drug? benzos. i've been taking 2mg klonopin two to three times daily for four years now and i ran out five days early when i accidentally washed a pair of pants that my remaining pills were in. i searched all over the city for benzos and for some reason could not find ANY xanax or the like and could NOT get the lazy idiot receptionists at my doctor's office to refill it for me early (she was too lazy to give my doctor the memo. my mom came over to my house and when she saw me she decided to go into the office and tell them i was at home in bed screaming and talking to people who weren't there) apparently the bitch receptionist who spent most her time eating fruit pies and making snarky remarks has since been fired) she did not understand that benzo withdrawals can KILL. so day 4 of no klonopin and i was an absolute wreck: i was knocking shit over, throwing up, my vision was altered in a very strange and uncomfortable manner...had no muscle coordination, was suffering maaaajor tachycardia (resting pulse 120-140 bpm), hot and cold sweats, EXTREME body aches, hallucinating (and i don't mean fun hallucinations like you may get from a few hits of blotter, i mean seeing fully materialized people with guns and knives in my room while i was curled up in bed. i tried to take a shower and when i pulled back the curtain, a slaughtered body was lying in the tub., i suffered 2 seizures (at least), and i was absolutely mental.
Oxy withdrawals suck ASS but they are NOTHING compared to benzo WD.

when i hear stories like that about benzo withdrawal it makes me glad that it never got there with me. it easily could've but for whatever miracle reason i decided to stop early enough to only go thru minor symptoms after binging on them. even at 6 months, 1 - 2 mg xanax per night, i did not experience anything too dramatic at all... nothing some extra opiates couldn't take care of.
i have the same experience with oxy withdrawal as well, exactly 4 days of misery every time.

 

[bwanajzj]

laCster made a valid point in the discussion... And so did all others. For maintainance, methadone is perhaps a good choice, likewise buprenorphine, but that is assuming that the people in MMT don't experience the full-on wd's as they are almost constantly medicated, until of course they say fuck it or are tapered off for other reasons etc.

From responses so far, seems oxy users will say oxy is the worst, done users will say that their wd's are worst.... heroin users obviously hate having wd's too...
So, maybe a relative comparison as to what makes oxy wd's worse would help, because I still believe that that the mere strength and duration of methadone leads to some of the worst wd's. I have not tried full-blown buprenorphine wd's, but when I did try 6 days of it, and it was bad.

I agree with many of the above posts, but I think responses need to be more comparative. For example in methadone wd's, I am useless for 3 weeks at least, lethargy lasting for months and the PAWS is a long-drawn affair. With heroin, I am out bathing in cold oceans, doing stuff and attempting to get back at a real life within a week. Sleep starts to return to normal after a couple of months after last dose of methadone, whereas it takes about two weeks off heroin to reach same level of sleep. There is also the issue of duration of use, many say that the longer a user has been taking a drug, the worse the wd's tend to get, even if the drug was taken on an on-off basis.

I think it is necessary to look aside from the fact that short-acting drugs have the user chasing the high more often, although there might be a correlation between duration of action and duration of wd's. Would be cool if somebody would take a couple of years to do self-testing with friends, family and pets, and devise such a plot, so that we could see how long-drawn and intense wd's are vs. strength in binding affinity and duration of action of different opiates/opioids.

 

[RedRum OG]

Black tar. It was such a powerful rush and high compared to anything else, for a year afterwards my life just seemed terrifying and sad. It was almost like a ultra-speedball compared to regular dope. (All my opiate use is always IV. Obv codeine, hydrocodone excluded)

So much worse than regular dope. Much much more intense and longer lasting, with very depressing PAWS. In terms of sheer intensity, Now that I think about it, oxymorphone was incredibly hard hitting and intense but cleared pretty quickly, otherwise that'd for sure take the cake. That shit had me stumbling to the toilet to puke/diarrhea, would do my business and pass out from the pain trying to get back to bed, wake up crying 15 minutes later with tremors so bad I couldn't get back to toilet. At that point in my life i was back livving with parents, Never had a good relationship. but anyways i was basically paralyzed by pain and shakes halfway between bathroom and bedroom and literally started crying out for my mom at 19 years old..... Very desperate, pathetic feeling. Honestly it really traumatized me, like mentally, even after I got some dope and got well I felt very scared and for a few weeks I was like mentally scarred.

Oxy, hydromorphone, Vicodin, morphine, all sucked but not that horrible. But that tar man, it just never left my mind even after long term sobriety. I constantly had cravings, seeing that thick brown soup suck down the rig into my vein. It was just such a mind blowing rush, like going down a huge roller coaster as a kid, while loosing virginity as a teen, at the same time as the first time shooting coke. You just can't forget that feeling.

However never done the methadone thing and I'm guessing if I had that'd win

 

[thelastclubkid]

for maintenance, do you really believe methadone is a better choice than buprenorphine? and if you do, for what reasons? just curious

.

dont get me wrong... both methadone and buprenorphine are excellent choices for maintainance... but there are differences between them that will make one a better choice depending on the circumstances... e.g. a perfect example is that buprenorphine is still patent protected whereas methadone is not... this is why subs are so expensive... that makes it a less ideal choice for maintainance considering most ex-addicts do nto have insurance and cannot afford the higher cost of the medication. the other thing about buprenorphine/subs is that it as a relatively new drug as far as approved use which means it has not been studied long term... alot of you guys probably do not remember LAAM... LAAM was the the big hyped maintainance drug back in the late 90's because it had similar properties as subs; high binding affinity and long duration of action.... it also turned out it caused cardiac disarythmia with sometimes fatal consequences... the minute LAAM was pulled they started lobbying to get subs approved for maintainance use...

the point is that as bad a rap as methadone gets it has probably been one of the *most* studied opiates, particularly from a maintainance aspect... theres over 50 years of research into the drug... i will concede its not perfect but overall its the best solution available right now...

 

[Morphling]

Oxymorphone wd's make every other opiate I've taken look like child's play, with acknowledgment to the fact that I have not had to go through those vaunted methadone wd's.

 

[snagglepuss]

..Getting on methadone a few years back for my 140mg a day oxy habit,was in my own case a big mistake..I thought the oxy withdrawls were hard ...sheeet .I got so tired of fucking going to the clinic .It was about 1 yr,from start to finish..
Just stepping down 5 mg a week from 90mg methadone...I think i jumped off at 2.5-4mg ...Never Again!! Ill take my oxy
punishment if needed...

 

[sickgirl72]

It's methadone, hands down. I've kicked dope a hundred times, and oxys several times over as well...am currently in my 8th day of suboxone detox (second time I've detoxed off it), and in my opinion methadone is the WORST. I didn't sleep for fourteen days no matter what I took, I was nearly immune to benzos for the first few weeks of it, I hallucinated...the one thing I can say about walking off methadone is that it was so bad that I had 5 years opiate free after the experience because I was so terrified of ever having to face anything like it again. After 5 years I had to do chemotherapy and relapsed then (and have been floundering for the 5 years since). Methadone was long, violent...horrible. The hair on my arms is standing up just having to think about how bad it was. Oh man it was baaaaaaaaad

 

[oxyaddict05]

I can only compare what I know, and at the doses I have used. So I'll put the worst of what I have experienced at 5 as a benchmark. I don't know methadone so I can't speak on that...but I would imagine that is the worst and would be a true 5 in most categories.... Also, each withdrawal was different for me, even for the same drug. I have had worse withdrawal from the same drug at lower doses, possible due to be getting slightly better at dealing with the withdrawal and/or other factors that affected the overall experience. Even with cold turkey, a lower dose detox will be worse in jail than at home, since I don't have the comforts of home to help (and I can't smoke!), for example. Anyways:

Oxycodone @ 240mg/day
Acute overall:5 Acute physical:4 Acute mental: 5
PAWS intensity:5 PAWS duration:2 PAWS Physical:4 PAWS Mental discomfort:5
Craving intensity:4 Craving duration:3

Heroin @ 1-2 grams/ day
Acute overall:4 Acute physical:5 Acute mental: 4
PAWS intensity:3 PAWS duration:1 PAWS Physical:2 PAWS Mental discomfort:3
Craving intensity:5 Craving duration:2

Buprenorphine @ 2mg (weaned down from 26-28mg over a year, got off at 2mg)
Acute overall:2 Acute physical:2 Acute mental: 3
PAWS intensity:3 PAWS duration:5+ PAWS Physical:4 PAWS Mental discomfort:4
Craving intensity:1 Craving duration:3

Tramadol @ 200-250mg/day
Acute overall:2 Acute physical:1 Acute mental: 4
PAWS intensity:n/a PAWS duration:n/a PAWS Physical:n/a PAWS Mental discomfort:n/a [All n/a since I switched to oxy lol]
Craving intensity:2 Craving duration:n/a

Kratom @ 15-20 grams/day (Enhanced Bali....whatever the fuck that mean lol)
Acute overall:3 Acute physical:2 Acute mental: 4
PAWS intensity:n/a PAWS duration:n/a PAWS Physical:n/a PAWS Mental discomfort:n/a [I have no idea since I started using heroin again shortly after I kicked it]
Craving intensity:2 Craving duration: n/a

Precipitated withdrawal (24mg suboxone shortly after a week of 600mg/day oxycodone) Only the acute applies, and I will go above the 5 rating scale proportionally:
Acute overall: 20 Acute physical: 30 Acute mental: 12 Duration: <1
These were the worst 4 hours of my life. I burned myself from taking a bath with only the hot water turned on. I felt like my core temp was 10 degrees Kelvin. I never cry during withdrawal, but I was bawling.

 

[down508]

methadone or precipitated w/d from taking naltrexone the day after suboxone. I was in detox from heroin, the detox used methadone. after a 4 or 5 day detox for 3 weeks I had dimed pupils and it felt like I was in benzo withdrawl. constant emotional anguish.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

People should be saying what opioids they have actually experienced withdrawals from. Of course everyone is just going to say what was the worst for them, if they have only ever experienced oxycodone WD they are going to say oxycodone.

And then of course there are so many factors like duration of use and dosage.

For me I am obviously going to say methadone, primarily for the sheer endless duration in comparison to all other opioid withdrawals. But I also think severity of certain symptoms is worse too (and there are some symptoms that don't usually occur with opioids). Methadone withdrawal can also be more dangerous.

Personally the only other opioids I have really experienced proper withdrawals from are heroin, morphine and hydromorphone though.

I also think that if tapered properly under medical supervision,methadone withdrawal shouldn't be that bad.I would personally taper down to 1 mg or less before the jump.

What makes you think that you wouldn't experience withdrawal while tapering? Going from 1mg to 0mg is not the hard part, it's getting below somewhere around 20mg/day. And tapering does not eliminate the PAWS. Not trying to scare you off ever trying to quit or anything, but I think it's a harmful myth that methadone doctors/clinic perpetuate that anyone can comfortably taper off methadone if they do it slowly enough, even after being on it for years.

I have also suffered full on methadone w/d and personally didn't find it near as bad as the w/d of mainling 600 mg's of morphine per day.

How many days did you go without methadone and how long had you been taking it at the time?

 

[Morphling]

Umm, I've withdrawn from:

Hydrocodone(oral)
Oxycodone(oral)
Oxymorphone(insufflated or IV, depending)
Hydromorphone(IV, up to 20 8mg pills a day)
Dihydrocodone(oral)
Fentanyl(buccal)
Heroin(IV duh)
Morphine(IV and oral)

I had a 2g a day black tar heroin habit, and oxymorphone withdrawl was still worse than anything else.