Opiate addicts - do you consider your addiction the 'true' addiction?

[footscrazy]

I wanted to create a point of discussion about addiction, and whether people think some are 'worse', or more 'real' addictions that others. I've often experienced opiate addicts relay their addiction as being on a whole nother level from others, especially compared to more psychological addictions, in particular stimulants.

On BL especially I've come across a lot of 'eliteism' from opiate addicts who seem to think that theirs is the worst addiction ever, and implicate that a methamphetamine addiction for example, being predominantly psychological, is much softer, easier, or maintained just by a lack of willpower.

What do you think? Do you think that some addictions are more 'valid' than others? Does being addicted to one substance indicate a weaker mind than addiction to another substance?

I know that various addictions have their own quirks, they're not all the same. Physical addiction is very different from psycological addiction/dependence. However, I believe that addiction is addiction , and it's mainly a behaviour - a pattern of thinking that has resulted in neuronal changes in the brain, that leads to the behaviours we commonly define as addiction. (I know that 'addiction' may be correctly defined as the body physically needing the drug to operate properly, so the correct term is maybe dependence, but I'm using the term 'addiction' as the common user would define it).

I think the great majority of people stuck with a physical addiction maintain it for a psychological reason, and it does annoy me that some people use the physical aspect to justify their addiction as being much more difficult than others.

Opinions...?

 

[Divine Moments]

Good thread

An addiction's an addiction to the addictee, regardless of the substance. Sure, some may have more severe withdrawal effects, or be more expensive, or induce more intense cravings, but that doesn't make any addiction more or less valid than another. Especially to someone who has only been addicted to that one substance. It's one thing for an opiate addict to say that stopping drinking was far easier for them than stopping opiates, but that makes no difference to an alcoholic who has never touched opiates. I don't think it's the sort of thing that should be compared between different people, even though so many people do.

 

[Divine Moments]

Just for anyone curious, some criteria from the DSM-IV:

Criteria for Substance Dependence

A maladaptive pattern of substance use, leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three (or more) of the following, occurring at any time in the same 12-month period:
1. tolerance, as defined by either of the following:

• a need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve intoxication or desired effect
• markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of the substance

2. withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:

• the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance (refer to Criteria A and B of the criteria sets for Withdrawal from the specific substances)
• the same (or a closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms

3. the substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended
4. there is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use
5. a great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain the substance (e.g., visiting multiple doctors or driving long distances), use the substance (e.g., chain-smoking), or recover from its effects
6. important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of substance use
7. the substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance (e.g., current cocaine use despite recognition of cocaine-induced depression, or continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption)

Specify if:

With Physiological Dependence: evidence of tolerance or withdrawal (i.e., either Item 1 or 2 is present)
Without Physiological Dependence: no evidence of tolerance or withdrawal (i.e., neither Item 1 nor 2 is present)

Criteria for Substance Abuse

A. A maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by one (or more) of the following, occurring within a 12-month period:

• recurrent substance use resulting in a failure to fulfill major role obligations at work, school, or home (e.g., repeated absences or poor work performance related to substance use; substance-related absences, suspensions, or expulsions from school; neglect of children or household)
• recurrent substance use in situations in which it is physically hazardous (e.g., driving an automobile or operating a machine when impaired by substance use)
• recurrent substance-related legal problems (e.g., arrests for substance-related disorderly conduct)
• continued substance use despite having persistent or recurrent social or interpersonal problems caused or exacerbated by the effects of the substance (e.g., arguments with spouse about consequences of intoxication, physical fights)

B. The symptoms have never met the criteria for Substance Dependence for this class of substance.

Also, from What’s in a Word? Addiction Versus Dependence in DSM-V:

Addiction is a primary, chronic, neurobiological disease, with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. It is characterized by behaviors that include one or more of the following: impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving.

Physical dependence is a state of adaptation that is manifested by a drug-class specific withdrawal syndrome that can be produced by abrupt cessation, rapid dose reduction, decreasing blood level of the drug, and/or administration of an antagonist

 

[Mr Blonde]

Good thread idea. I've noticed that as well on BL, that certain drug users like to talk up their addiction over others, romanticize it, etc... I'd like to see people's opinions on it.

Myself, I feel that an addiction is an addiction no matter what it is to. Some may have more severe withdrawals then others, but the same process is driving it whether it's gambling or opioids or cigarettes.

 

[ritewing]

Ciggarettes are by far more addictive than heroin!! Heroin withdrawls differ from person to person as well. Heroin is by far more addictive than meth or any of that upper crap... but yes people "addicted" to ice just lack will power...

 

[Jabberwocky]

^some sage advice there from a wise alt ego8)

this is a serious discussion so let's keep it intelligent without all the filler for once

 

[MrIbis]

'ritewing' please go and die now.

'leftwing' - full of win

You're not wrong footscrazy when you say generally people who've been through heroin addiction rate it as much worse than stimulants, because it is.

It only takes having actually been there, to full blown withdrawal after using opioid replacement therapies do you actually understand what rock-bottom is. Meth addiction isn't a cakewalk, but generally in individuals i've known who were meth addicts - a distinct lack of willpower to get away from meth is seen, and they keep following the same sleepless loop day in, day out, until they hit psychosis.

Heroin/opiate addiction is very gradual and creeps up on you. Soon you notice you can't eat, you can't sleep, you're sweating, you're in pain, you look like death.

Meth addiction includes a lot of these factors - but one key fact remains - meth has all these little 'bonuses' included in the price, heroin doesn't - but you know it's coming.

 

[footscrazy]

^ I'll write a proper reply later because I don't have the time right now, but I think that if I tried to argue about how heroin addiction really is, you'd say I haven't been there, and in the same way, I'd say you haven't really been there when it comes to meth addiction. I've used heroin for 5 years now, and opiates daily for the past few months, but I'm sure you'd say (and I'd agree) that that's not the same as having a full blown heroin addiction. In the same way, while I know you've abused meth in the past, I don't think you can put yourself in the shoes of someone who is addicted to it. Even if you had experienced both equally, you can't equate your personal experience as being indicative of the whole human population's experience. I think the substance you're addicted to is an arbitrary factor, caused more by quirks of brain chemistry, than the more general state of 'addiction'.

Everyone considers their addiction the worse ever. It's a fact of human psychology that what is personally experienced is always rated as more real, or worse, than anything anyone else goes through.

For those that think opiate addiction is worse than meth addiction, how do you rate it in comparison to to other addictions, such as those to benzos or alcohol?

 

[Jakeperson]

I know some one that a few months off meth saw globes and pipes every time he closed his eyes or went to sleep. That seems pretty impossible to beat to me. If I got to that stage, I wouldn't be able to help myself from using.

I wouldn't compare any addiction. It's too different for each individual. Pot addiction isn't meant to be physical and yet when I quit smoking I suffered severe physical symptoms. It was mostly the same as phenibut withdrawal but without the 2 weeks of vomiting.

Have been in a group therapy session with a fair few alcoholics and they all reacted very differently to stopping drinking with very similar drinking patterns. Some could just quit cold turkey, some had seizures, some got cravings whilst others didn't get any once they stopped.
So I don't think you can compare any addiction because the withdrawal is going to be very specific to how you're body and brain deals with it.

 

[ritewing]

I know some one that a few months off meth saw globes and pipes every time he closed his eyes or went to sleep. That seems pretty impossible to beat to me. If I got to that stage, I wouldn't be able to help myself from using.

I wouldn't compare any addiction. It's too different for each individual. Pot addiction isn't meant to be physical and yet when I quit smoking I suffered severe physical symptoms. It was mostly the same as phenibut withdrawal but without the 2 weeks of vomiting.

Have been in a group therapy session with a fair few alcoholics and they all reacted very differently to stopping drinking with very similar drinking patterns. Some could just quit cold turkey, some had seizures, some got cravings whilst others didn't get any once they stopped.
So I don't think you can compare any addiction because the withdrawal is going to be very specific to how you're body and brain deals with it.

LOL this man speaks the truth....

I remember when quitting ciggies (after 4-5 days) every dream is about smoking. Then you wake up and feel great that you didnt cave in and smoke another cig. The same goes for heroin ... !

 

[Crankinit]

I know some one that a few months off meth saw globes and pipes every time he closed his eyes or went to sleep. That seems pretty impossible to beat to me. If I got to that stage, I wouldn't be able to help myself from using.

I used to get meth dreams, and I was never addicted. Would generally happen in the week or two after a big run.

 

[Z Y G G Y]

Ciggarettes are by far more addictive than heroin!! Heroin withdrawls differ from person to person as well. Heroin is by far more addictive than meth or any of that upper crap... but yes people "addicted" to ice just lack will power...

Luckily for us thou cigarettes don't cause much of w/d, nothing more than really mild. I'm so glad I am a non-smoker these days. Also I totally don't agree that cigarettes are more addictive than heroin or methamphetamine. At most its just as addictive as anything else. The addiction, because w/d is mild, creeps up on you and doesn't cause great damage til much later. It's an ingenious trap, cigs.

If only opiates had such mild w/d then I'd be able to get rid of that also. But for me personally, w/d is what keeps me on methadone. There is no question about it. My leg pain is horrible forever and I can't handle it.

But there are other reasons that something like meth(amphetamine) is really addictive. Physical pain might make opiate w/d really hard and the relief you get is what keeps you coming back. But for meth the mental relief is what keeps you addicted.

I tried meth once and I know just how insanely addictive it is. For heroin you don't get w/d right away, but for meth you do (or I did). I used it, couldn't sleep for days and all I could think about was more of it. Then the horrible comedown (w/d) for days. Very very good in the beginning but horrible w/d. You have to have a strong body to be able to use this stuff regularly.

To me it doesn't matter what substance, be it cigs. If it is causing problems for you then its a true addiction.

How can someone think that meth is less addictive than heroin. Both are plagues. I can't wait for the day that I leave all that shit behind.

 

[Divine Moments]

lol I'm pretty sure ritewing is trolling

 

[Jakeperson]

Oh man, I hope you're kidding. People who are addicts usually have a reason to be that way. I have met many "addicts" , and not once have I seen one that had a wonderful, pain free life. Addiction is a way of self medicating, a way to kill some serious pain that one went through at some point in their lives. The word will power is used way too much in conversations about dependence. It's a lot more complicated than that. I never call out people like this, but man was your statement ignorant. Have some compassion.

Will power can get you through a lot of things but it won't stop a drug addiction, that takes some thing else. I dunno what because I really just rely on will power to keep me away from weed and when it's around me I have none.

 

[Jakeperson]

That's not just from my experience either, I know a lot of others who are the same. Strong will power will help avoiding use but it won't cure anything.

 

[Xtc <3]

Have never experienced physical withdrawel symptoms so dont have experience of which is worse (If any), however im struggling massively atm with marijuana of all things and im finding it a lot harder to kick than daily codeine use was for me in the past.

I say I have never experienced physical withdrawel symptoms but im not really sure tbh, i'm experiencing pretty bad anxiety these last few days not smoking pot, does that classify? With Mephedrone I would obviously feel fatigued, felt rotten for a week after stopping codeine, do these classify as physical or psychological? What are the real differences between the two?

 

[mcwally]

^marijuana was terribly addictive for me a few years ago too. Everyday waking to sleep perma stoned. I would be a nervous wreck if I couldn't hook up. I went from something like 25 cones a day to nothing when I went a bit mental and then that sudden change in brain chemistry sent me totally gaga for a few weeks.

For some if it is their drug of choice its addiction and effects shouldn't be underestimated

Meth I was hooked on in thailand I literally had to leave the country to stop otherwise I would still be there and probably in some thai jail by now. Terrible scene that too. More mentally destructive in a shorter time space than pot for sure, try meth paranoia and being in a drug nazi country like that on, not fun rofl

 

[headdah]

I used to get meth dreams, and I was never addicted. Would generally happen in the week or two after a big run.

a the beginning of my meth journey i used to get meth dreams all the freaken time. like it'd be a normal dream then all of a sudden i'm holding a crackpipe in my hand lol.

These days as I get on it more, I am getting less meth dreams if any. I wonder why is that ????

Maybe its cuz i'm doing long benders and when i do sleep, my body is over exhausted and therefore dont dream/dont remember the dreams.

i'd like to think i'm not addicted to meth, but i think the raw truth is that I am some what addicted to it.

 

[guy1234]

i currently use amphetamine sulphate daily, at peak usage i use probably up to an ounce a week. i steal regularly from friends and family to aquire money and recently took a break of a week with the aid of 13 grams of ketamine, but once the ketamine ran out i lasted three days, and those three days only because i was in too much of a wrecked mental and physical state to leave the house and pick up. i regularly stay up for periods ranging anywhere from 36 through 96 hours and regularly experiece severe psychosis episodes during these times. i hate the smell, the taste the sight and am generally repulsed by it.

there's an outline of my speed use. and i can admit to myself that i cant even force my brain to WANT to quit. people who say speedfreaks merely have no will power, yes but this stems FROM THE DRUG USE. speed steals your will power, it steals your personality, sanity and health. there is nothing left of you to fight with, and you give in to your fate because the speed is now actually in charge of the part of your brain that WOULD be the willpower centre. its like a country can repel an invasion from another if they have good leadership and basically jsut get over the fear and get shit together. then they can unite to get rid of the invasion even if its a long and bloody war. the difference from heroin addiction to when it comes to speed addiction is that on amphetamines the bloody government of the invaded country is actually already in control of the invaders, so even though the body (the rest of the country) protests, of course the government will just sit back and open the gates for them. amphetmines make you the traitor.

so although i am going to acknowledge that heroin addiction is obviously a monster physically and i think i personally would find it a harder problem to kick than speed addiction (even though speed appears very functional at first, its very difficult to sustain a habit which condemns food and sleep and half the time being in a state of clinical insanity whereas heroin i could imagine just going forever in comfort) i just want to make sure YOU acknowledge that the way amphets just fuck up your mind and your body whilst actually ON the high are something to be reckoned with. think if something in your computer breaks, the whole thing is useless. but if you've really fucked with the programing and REALLY corrupted all of the software to the extent where you can view nothing but a white screen, then your computer is just as useless to the user, yes you're right, its not as bad, the console is still on, the circuit is technically complete but so what? your monitor doesn't care about that if its got nothing to show for it.

for me though cigarettes are the addiction i'll find hardest to shake. like people make the mistake of thinking this means ''i find the actual period of stopping more unpleasant''. no i dont mean that, those are side effects of ceasing use and are a quitting deterrant but not actually relevant when trying to decide my hardest addiction to kick because i can compare withdrawals all day but these withdrawals indicate that i have quitted or tried to or that its a problem. but smoking fills a gap in our lives so crucial and yet never attempting to take them over. no other drug will ever be able to achieve becoming something that is so basic and essential you forget cigarettes exist except for when you do remember, have a nice fag and then forget again and carry on with shit. even coffee, or chewing gum, or any other contender that fills the same gap can come anywhere near being such a convenient little pleasure, strong enough to look forwards to immensely (unlike coffee) and different enough from any concievable actions you make throughout the rest of the day to be more than just a background boredom killer like gum. smoking is all about the act, the self provided illusion of stress release, the routine and structure it gives your day, the necessity of it rather than the desire for it, the satisfaction of it in your throat, the knowledge that you ARE set apart that you are part of a class smaller than just the one that defines you're human. you are human and you're a smoker and despite so many millions smoking, you still feel a strange connection with them all, like you are part of something that people share globally. not a cult or group, a movement or even common beliefs. there is nothing so organized or advanced about it, it is simply the dry recognition that is enough for you to ask a complete stranger for something of theirs and for it to be given or refused with the stranger thinking none the worse of you because their is the understanding. and it also gives us a feeling of being different, very slightly alter-average but not whacky.

this is why i find cigarettes more addictive than amphetamines, ketamine or mephedrone (other addiction experiences i've had) because they were always ''drugs'' and i was having to go out of my routine to get them and then doing them throughout the day if i pretend to go to the toilet or w/e. and then i might not sleep and that would create problems and eating would be a problem etc. whereas cigarettes synergise BEAUTIFULLY with the human lifestyle. they just become part of your identity like your gender or your ethnicity or whether you eat meat or who you vote for and to an extent like your religion because this indicates the feeling of ''ever so slightly set apart''. when buying cigarettes might BECOME the daily activity that you might have to sacrifice if you want to get drugs shows how they are as needed when you go out the door as your phone, keys and wallet ''a pocket essential''. this is why nothing can compete, these drugs make a big hard fucking effort to invade my country and i drive it away or endure foreign occupation for a while before i manage to kick the habit because having foreigners ruling over me was bad for me because they didnt know how to do things right and shit started to fall apart. but nicotine REALLY knows how to play the game, it just quietly comes along and you see the occasional foreign person in the street and then suddenly foreigners everywhere with many who have become citizens and hold places in government where they cause no issues because they've learned to harmonize with you rather than to try and occupy and fight for power over you. let heroin and crack grapple with your mind and body for dominion trying to make you their slave bitch and drastically changing you to fit their lifestyles ruining your health. but when all the wars are over and you are CLEAN and feel like you are finally done with heroin or whatever your choice of drug is after years and years of effort and pain. the moment you announce this, (without even noticing that one little addiction that didnt occur to you in this big cleanse) your mind will automatically bring out your pack of fags because knowing when its time for a cigarette is a sixth sense. your body remembers for you

sorry about the length, did i mention about the speed addiction?

guy1234

 

[guy1234]

oh the reason this is possible for cigarettes and nothing else is because they're such a reliable pleasure, they never turn on you like all other drugs can, like whilst speed is stabbing you in the back and heroin kicks you when you've fallen off the knife you can still have a fag whilst you're down there and it will be suddenly not so bad in the sense that you will be stabbed and kicked but will also have had a fag which is always better than not. you can think ''oo maybe i shouldn't have that last line tonight'' or ''maybe enough shots today'' but having a cigarette is ALWAYS preferrable to not. and by the time cigarettes DO turn on, they've been so successful for so long that they've spent years cooking up something BIG behind your back. like cancer, and by that point, you just think there's no way of stopping their plans now ''kudos to you'' kind of thing and hand over the keys, and if you're going to be terminal, you STILL CONTINUE to smoke, because whats the point of denying yourself that simple pleasure now at this stage?

so to sum up all my sleepless ramblings (which i hope make some kind of sense, i was quite proud of the ''body as a country'' analogy) although i'm sure i will find it hard to stop my speed addiction, and i would find it VERY hard to knock a heroin habit on its head and i'm sure i'd find them much harder to actually stop and get over than i would nicotine, its always very likely i'll stop speed when it becomes a problem and get through it, or i'd finally realise heroin use was out of control and suffer the withdrawals a couple of times before i could come clean, but at the end of the day i am just..... not likely to stop smoking. like i would probably find giving up meat alot easier than getting rid of heroin, but i'm just very unlikely to give up meat, and if i did it'd be very likely i'd fail every time, because, youknow, its meat