On the Demonisation of Methamphetamine on Bluelight

[simstim]

I don't get it, @Perforated. Are you covering for him or something? He's not that old; I've talked to him before about our mutual appreciation for the band Primus, from whom he takes his username. This joker is a middle-aged troll; don't cover for him. There's no “old, confused man” here. Do you think I'm that dumb? And he definitely understands what he's saying, and so do I. Why do you think you got two laughing responses from people who've been talking shit to me earlier in the post?

It's just whatever. I could give a fuck. But I think it's hypocritical everyone comes down on me for saying things they deem insensitive, yet others get away with what's essentially hate speech, not just scott-free, but protected by OP who is also a moderator who has come down on me in the past and who acts ignorant to this aforementioned hate speech, even when it's plainly obvious.

For you youngsters, this is the Primus reference:

I got the primus references right off the bat too

 

[Jabberwocky]

I don't get it, @Perforated. Are you covering for him or something?

Nope. Just trying to give everybody an out with some light humour and ribbing so we can get back on topic.

The mods of this forum have twice threatened to shut this thread. If 1:1 slagging of people continues or if it remains predominantly the @unodelacosa personal self-justification thread I’m sure it will be closed and then I will be the butt-hurt mod getting cranky with people.

I know @Mr. Krinkle and his warped sense of humour very well from my continual battle to stop him de-railing threads in Sex, Love, and Relationships where he is definitely an equal-opportunity troller and not particularly a homophobe.

I think the point has been reached where you report anything you are still offended by rather than going into battle with possible homophobic trolls and possible user-shaming drug-bigots.

Reports get seen by all the mods and the many gay ones and the many active using ones are highly sensitive to homophobia and user-shaming. That does not mean your own judgement of a what is a homophobic or user-shaming post will necessarily be concurred with.

Then you should just eat it and move on making the thoughtful and constructive posts we know and love you for.

 

[simstim]

Your account implies you're somewhat new to the site, like mine does for me. However, @Mr. Krinkle has been here for 16 years.

Just so you know I joined in 2007 with another account name (simstimstar) and was a visitor for at least 5 years prior to that. I'm far more involved here now than I used to be, though. I think my old account has a post count of 300 something over the course of several years and now I'm pushing 1500 in just a few months. I've had so many drug experiences to post about since my original account, lol.

 

[unodelacosa]

remains predominantly the @unodelacosa personal self-justification thread

Hey I feel like that's not really fair, but I'd be foolish not to take some meaning from your point here, or to consider that—despite it not being my intention or desire—this could be true in the net aggregate sense, in which case I feel badly. I've attempted to point out how a prime example of the titular demonisation of meth has applied right here in this very thread as I've attempted to defend meth as having both merits and demerits and not just being the subject of a reductive blanket statement like "there is nothing safe about meth". Honestly, I thought it was on-topic, and my last post before this one discussed the demonisation topic directly. Sorry if I derailed things, then, and either way, I'm definitely sorry if I came across so self-absorbed to you. I guess my head was up my ass.

Then you should just eat it and move on

Not much other choice ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

making the thoughtful and constructive posts we know and love you for.

Awww shucks…

 

[Joey]

Oh another topic. I like Primus quite a bit.

Meth. I don’t know man. I get it. Obviously. I do it, addictively. I wish I didn’t. I make the choice anyway. I don’t feel like I have one sometimes. Shit cycle.

I’ll never say any substance is inherently evil or the root of or anything but meth is the only one I think can actually cause people to really act beyond delusional and with the gusto adolf hitler had. I know I just went radical here, but dude he was recorded as and was an obvious tweaker to the extreme. You think radical politicians become proponents of races they don’t even exist in because their lifestyle is healthy? I get, if hitter took no or far less meth, ww2 would not be what is was. Across the board actually all the armies of the day were fueled by methamphetamine and only for the craziest shit like kamikaze pilots or wicked experimentation or whatever. It’s sick.

That’s also people using something to their will and not necessarily the other way, but I really wonder. If there wasn’t a tweaker German politician who was convinced of his delusions in the 20s-40s would the world be the same?

 

[acklac7]

If there wasn’t a tweaker German politician who was convinced of his delusions in the 20s-40s would the world be the same?

What if he wasn't delusional...

 

[acklac7]

What if he saw the potential. What if all this talk about the benefits of Low-Dosing Meth Caused World War 2.

I mean, Meth has been around since the late 1800's. You don't think they've studied it to oblivion and beyond? What if Hitler was onto something? What if Hitler and the Nazi's where Low-Dosing?

 

[unodelacosa]

Just so you know I joined in 2007 with another account name (simstimstar) and was a visitor for at least 5 years prior to that. I'm far more involved here now than I used to be, though. I think my old account has a post count of 300 something over the course of several years and now I'm pushing 1500 in just a few months. I've had so many drug experiences to post about since my original account, lol.

That's awesome! And I had a feeling that might be the case which is why I stated it as "your account implies" and also mentioned that my own account did the same thing. I wasn't pointing out that you were missing something as much as I was showing that the aforementioned party clearly had 16 years experience on the site. Evidently you and a site mod here were attempting to persuade me into believing he didn't know what he was saying, when in fact of course he knew what he was saying. It's a strange experience for me, as it's at once insulting, and I'm also embarrassed that I've evoked this response through my own behavior and responses. It's humbling. I'm not mad at anyone, and I remind myself that it's "not all about me" every day, this just being one more opportunity.

Which drug experiences do you tend toward, and do you think meth's been demonized or it fully deserves its bad reputation?

 

[acklac7]

What if he wasn't delusional...

I mean, what if he saw the power it beheld. He obviously used it for the wrong reasons, but what if he saw the power low-dosing held.

It can be used for good, in the right mindset.

Hitler ruined Meth, but I think Meth was Top-Secret long before Hitler.

 

[acklac7]

You have to ask yourselves: How far back does Methamphetamine go?

Methamphetamine is derived from the Ephedrine plant via an Iodine / red phosphorus reduction. We could have made Meth a long time ago everyone. A long, long time ago...

 

[acklac7]

Methamphetamine is Organic. Who Knew?

 

[simstim]

Nazi-ism is pretty messed up. I don't think it can all attributed to meth though. They didn't invent the term holocaust either.

I have a Catholic bible and the word holocaust is used for all animal sacrifices. Every time.

What were they thinking??? Maybe it was the meth. I have some pretty messed up theories on the topic actually that have to do with some of my own psychosis experiences. Long story short I believe in the seen and the unseen. I think the holocaust was more about soul stealing than anything.

 

[simstim]

Methamphetamine is Organic. Who Knew?

In chemistry "organic" is defined as any molecule that contains carbon so in that sense most chemicals are "organic". Inorganic chemicals exist but they're usually salts and minerals.

 

[unodelacosa]

Oh another topic. I like Primus quite a bit.

Primus sucks! Love those guys; seen them seven or eight times over the years, well, a few times it was a Claypool side project – Les Claypool and The Holy Mackerel, Colonel Claypool's Bucket of Bernie Brains, and of course Colonel Les Claypool's Fearless Flying Frog Brigade… Good times had by all.

Meth. I don’t know man. I get it. Obviously. I do it, addictively.

Well, "addictively" can be good or bad. I mean, I know lots of people who I would classify as functional caffeine/coffee addicts, but it's not really a big deal. They maintain pretty easily and even taper sometimes if they have the chance and need to change their habits. Granted it's on the low-end of the speed spectrum, as George Carlin once put it, but still…

I wish I didn’t.

Why? What's the trouble? You're not confining your drug use to just this one drug, are you? That's almost invariably a pitfall for most people. Think about it, not always, but usually when people die from drug use it's because their obsession with one drug ran away with them. Personally, I switch things up all the time whilst avoiding any serious tolerance—and thus also: dependency—issues from arising. It's always worked for me and I've done it for over two decades now, but of course that doesn't mean it's universally going to work for everyone. Just sharing what I know and do.

I make the choice anyway. I don’t feel like I have one sometimes. Shit cycle.

I think it's fair to say you're conflicted over it. For me, I find that using psychedelics and dissociatives between meth redoses tends to extend out the period of time before I redose and/or sometimes precludes the redosing altogether. By the time I come back around to hitting some tina again, I find no significant tolerance has built, and I still get high AF on a moderate amount. You know, chasing a high—most times—is not worth it. It's kinda like: get high or get on with something different, lol.

I’ll never say any substance is inherently evil or the root of or anything but meth is the only one I think can actually cause people to really act beyond delusional and with the gusto adolf hitler had.

Nah, I mean really, just about any CNS stimulant can do this, and a few dissos and even some of the GABA-ergics, though stimulant-induced psychosis is both more common and less obvious at first. MDMA and MDA are capable of doing this, and I've witnessed it happen to others first-hand. Really potent cocaine, smoked/vaped, insufflated and/or especially if IV'd, can induce a delusional psychosis. Ever hear of the coke critters and the meth mites? Those are real phenomena, and there seems to be a correlation between these temporarily-induced states featuring delusions of persecution and hallucinations, and those who have dopamine disorders that are just on the border of being clearly evident even when the person isn't on drugs. It can also wreak havoc on someone with schizotypal personality disorder who isn't quite fullblown schizophrenic but is sent over the edge by dopaminergic drugs and any appreciable amount of CNS stimulation, including even caffeine. MDPV, α-PVP, and related cathinones and pyrovalerone compounds similarly can cause delusional states, especially in the predisposed.

I know I just went radical here, but dude he was recorded as and was an obvious tweaker to the extreme.

I read a book about it translated from German called Blitzed: Drugs in The Third Reich. The German Military during WWII and under NSDAP-control were largely issued prescription Pervitin, which were 4 mg methamphetamine.hydrochloride tablets then-made by a German pharmaceutical. Initially this was useful during Blitzkrieg, but toward war's end this was cut back massively both due to declining war budget and because the side-effects of meth abuse became evident over the preceding five or six years.

Hitler's personal physician evidently gave him daily injections of drug cocktails, notably methamphetamine shots in the morning and opiate-class drugs IV'd at night… also something for the constipation this gave Hitler, and following that, something else for the subsequent gas the former constipation remedy caused. It's really odd, but Dr. Morrell (I think that was his name) kept fantastically detailed notes regarding what he gave Hitler, probably out of understandable paranoia regarding the Gestapo and other in-faction spies, secret police, and paramilitary factions of the National Socialist German Workers Party. But yeah Hitler wasn't sober one day from 1941 until his death in 1996, it would seem (just kidding; he died in 1945, unless you're speaking within the reality of Mike Mignola's Hellboy comics).

You think radical politicians become proponents of races they don’t even exist in because their lifestyle is healthy?

They were proponents of eugenics, and believed in what they saw as the genetic superiority of the "nordic race", but this sentiment wasn't exactly uncommon among WASPs at the time, regardless of nationality. The strongly anti-semitic rhetoric was largely seen as being only radical talk intended to draw in votes and support, not something that would culminate so quickly into a clear, deliberate, and earnest attempt at mass-homicide/genocide. There were even ashkenazi Jews living in Germany who actually voted for Hitler believing the anti-semitic bits were all talk while agreeing with his political take on the Treaty of Versailles and its implications on the German economy under the Weimar Republic.

I get, if hitter took no or far less meth, ww2 would not be what is was. Across the board actually all the armies of the day were fueled by methamphetamine and only for the craziest shit like kamikaze pilots or wicked experimentation or whatever. It’s sick.

I think it's interesting the Allies mostly took amphetamine sulphate, while the Axis powers mostly took methamphetamine hydrochloride. It's as if WWII were fought between Team Adderall (or Team Speed if you prefer) and Team Meth, and ultimately Team Addy won while Team Meth just wound up killing lots of people, lol. No but these are oversimplifying some very complex matters that easily transcend explanations hinged solely on the effects of stimulants.

That’s also people using something to their will and not necessarily the other way, but I really wonder. If there wasn’t a tweaker German politician who was convinced of his delusions in the 20s-40s would the world be the same?

Well no, but there's the whole butterfly effect thing to consider. I also believe in the multiverse theory or "many worlds" theory, so it's interesting to consider what-ifs and parallel universes. Speaking of which, Philip K. Dick's The Man In The High Tower is an excellent book about an alternative universe in which The Axis powers won the war. In this universe there is yet another alternate history book about "what if the allies won the war?" though in this version President Franklin Roosevelt is assassinated and the United Kingdom come out on top in the end as the dominant global superpower. I can't speak on the series that was on Amazon or Netflix or something recently, but the book is great, like most of Dick's writing. In related non-fiction I highly recommend Something Deeply Hidden by CalTech's Mathematics department's own Sean Carroll. He delves into multiverse quantum mechanics with aplomb and without getting too entrenched in the physics and mathematics that would give most of us glazed over blank staring eyes…

But back to Hitler… I don't think he was delusional at all. I think he was an angry man with a domineering personality who could strike an emotional note that resonated with German nationalists at the time, and I think he was an opportunist with just enough political strategy talent and an abundance of public speaking talent to bring to fruition a particularly ugly, racist, anti-Jewish sentiment that was fairly common in Western Europe, particularly among Anglo-Saxon countries with large Ashkenazi Jewish influxes and minority populations. I think if Hitler cared about German people so much, like he claimed, he would've surrendered the war rather than allowing Berlin to be captured and allowing countless German lives to be lost in the process.

Nazi-ism is pretty messed up. I don't think it can all attributed to meth though.

Meth does not cause concentration camps, generally speaking, no.

 

[unodelacosa]

What if he wasn't delusional...

He wasn't, although some Group Think and confirmation bias was likely quite active and present. Delusions are not necessary for genocide to occur, and in many ways attributing something like the Holocaust to the actions of a few delusional Germans who somehow tricked an entire nation into going along with their diabolical plan is disingenuous and ignores the more important sociological implications of the Jewish Holocaust in the 20th century and other events during WWII.

I mean, what if he saw the power it beheld. He obviously used it for the wrong reasons, but what if he saw the power low-dosing held.

It's unclear how aware Hitler was w/r/t his daily injections or to what extent he didn't bother himself with the details other than to tell his physician he wanted something stimulating in the morning and something pleasantly sedating at night (who doesn't?). I don't believe there was any real drug prohibition during both the Weimar Republic and the Third Reich, so it's worth noting that what he was doing was neither a secret nor a big deal in most people's minds, including potentially the mind of Adolf Hitler himself, but to an extent this is merely my conjecture.

There was this German-Jewish doctor from Manhattan they called Dr. Feelgood—possibly one Dr. Robert Freymann—who was notorious in the U.S. for injecting his wealthy celebrity patients with meth and other stimulants under the decoy of "Vitamin B-12". Purportedly this is who Kennedy called in for a boost during the Cuban Missile Crisis, which didn't end—ironically enough and as the story goes—until after JFK came down, got some sleep, and came to his senses. Who knows what dose he was given if this story is true? The Beatles also knew they guy, supposedly, and he's the subject of the song Dr. Robert.

It can be used for good, in the right mindset.

Like anything.

Hitler ruined Meth,

Who said meth was ruined? And anyway how is that Hitler's fault? Not standing up for the guy, but come on; most history books don't even mention any drug use, and I doubt most people know that The Third Reich was getting high much at all, with the possible exception of Hermann Göring who was infamously dependent on opiates/morphine derivatives for many years (much like Senator Joe McCarthy for that matter), so isn't it a little overboard saying Hitler ruined meth?

but I think Meth was Top-Secret long before Hitler.

It wasn't a secret. It was a prescription medication and you can even find advertisements for it. Try image-searching "Pervitin" and for that matter "Desoxyn" and "prescription methamphetamine.hcl ads"

There's nothing particularly special or worthy of reverence with methamphetamine, just like it's not particularly worthy of demonization either. Like virtually every other recreational drug out there, there are pros and cons to this substance. This assessment seems evident upon reflection, yet it's apparently not very evident, all the same, as many people have very deeply held opinions on the topic. I wish fewer people abused it, gave it a bad rap, and/or used it so poorly that it makes it difficult for people like me to go about their responsible use without taking heavy criticisms and warrantless judgments. But then oh well, if I had wheels I'd be a wagon. And if a frog had wings, etc.

 

[simstim]

Hitler was a marginalized small man with a marginalized small man's pathological psychosis and a marginalized small man's desperate attempts to attain power and control. Napoleon syndrome, I think it's called. I've experienced people with this syndrome personally and think it could've been solved if someone had stood up and given him a proper ass kicking.

The fact that Hitler's shit was both occult and genocide is beyond messed up.

Somewhere in storage I've got a totenkopf. An SS panzer tank commander ring. It's a ring with swastikas and runes and a skull and crossbones on it. It has Himmler's signature inscribed on the inside. If it's real it's .995 pure silver (for sure it's silver because it tarnishes). I read a book once about totenkopfs and it doesn't have one of the commonly faked names inscribed so it's possible it's a real one (copies exist). I bought it on eBay from Poland years ago searching for skull rings. I thought of it like "we kicked their asses and now look at my souvenir", lol.

I didn't wear it though and gave it to my stepson. He read about it and tried to give it back to me but I told him to hang onto it so it wouldn't be in my possession. I think it's likely to be buried in my storage unit now.

An ss panzer tank commander ring, lol. Pure evil....

 

[polarthedog]

I mean, what if he saw the power it beheld. He obviously used it for the wrong reasons, but what if he saw the power low-dosing held.

It can be used for good, in the right mindset.

Hitler ruined Meth, but I think Meth was Top-Secret long before Hitler.

I think its worth saying that i haven't "tweaked off the walls" for years, and now, using 30 mg ish of maybe 50% meth yesterday, I have no hangover at all.

Maybe most of the hangover is actually damage to dopamine receptors?

Also i did alot of chores and spent time with my family, im usually too depressed to do much more than sit around playing video games/watching tv. I talk to my family usually, but i do it much more when im tweaked out. My girlfriend says she loves talking to me when i take meth.

I was prescribed add meds from age 6-16, and when i took them right, they really helped me to get stuff done.
oh and I haven't done any today, I don't really want it to be a daily thing, had to take double my gabapentin and prazocin and kratom to sleep last night.

 

[unodelacosa]

You have to ask yourselves: How far back does Methamphetamine go?

Amphetamine was discovered in the late 19th century while Methamphetamine was discovered in the early 20th century, as you know.

Methamphetamine is derived from a reduction of the Ephedrine plant via Iodine and red phosphorus.

That's one way it can be produced, and worthy of note is that ephedrine reductions are stereoselective for only the d-isomer of the drug. The racemate is synthesized from phenylacetone which itself can be produced from manipulation of an organic produced aldehyde which as that found in cinnamon oil (though it's a long work-up).

We could have made Meth a long time ago everyone. A long, long time ago...

Well hold on now, pump your brakes. First the discoveries of phosphorus and iodine needed to occur. The former happened in ~1669 by a German alchemist named Hennig Brand while distilling down urine in an attempt to produce “the philosopher's stone”. Instead he produced a white glowing mass that made light in the dark and was given to spontaneous combustion. It took until 1680 for it to reach Robert Boyle who backwards engineered it from scant hints said by Brand despite trying to keep it an intellectual property secret.

Meanwhile iodine wasn't identified separately until 1811 in France by chemist Bernard Courtois. In addition to the discovery of the elements, it also required knowledge that hydroiodic acid is formed from carefully reacting red phosphorus with iodine under a controlled environment and that HI acid would cleave ephedrine's hydroxyl bond by sending it two electrons (I'm simplifying but you get the point). So the fact that Nagai discovered it in the early 20th century is pretty acceptable and logical to me. How else should this have gone?

 

[acklac7]

How else should this have gone?

MMMM, this leaf good.

EWWW, this leaf bad.

Let's extract said good benefits from this good leaf, yeah?

I mean it's pretty easy? So easy Ape's could have done it...

 

[simstim]

I'm constantly amazed at how many plants have been smoked or otherwise ingested by our ancestors in the name of science. Ephedra is an amazing medicine.

Isn't God amazing creating so many things we need for us?

Do you realize how unlikely it is that men would evolve out of nothing, or that so many medicinal and psychoactive plants would evolve alongside him out of a vacuum??

Creation is reality.