On Extraction and Synthetic Drugs

[solistus]

Aaaaaaaand Teotzlcoatl goes on the ignore list.

Wow, that's a load off. So, anyone got a reason this thread should stay open?

 

[Visitor Q]

Please... just close the dreadful thread.

It's exhausting.

 

[Propyl Power]

Please... just close the dreadful thread.

It's exhausting.

Yes please.

Please.

Teo is a headache and a stain on the reputation of tolerant plant-lovers everywhere...

 

[polidelaiko]

Please don´t feed the saicotroll with synthetics.

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

Yeah, like tobacco! No one uses that stuff!

I mean if you grow it and prepare it yourself.

O come on, keep it open!

In America alone, people spend many billions of dollars every year purchasing pharmaceutical drugs: all of which are synthetic. The degree to which synthetic drugs are tolerated by mainstream society is many orders of magnitude greater than that afforded to ethnobotanicals and plant psychoactives.

Now that is a good point.

How do we get people to realize pharms are just as bad as many street drugs?

 

[Delta-9-THC]

Good post Roger.

Just because some people agree with you doesn't make you right. True, to the layman the argument that plants should be legal might be easier to digest then saying all drugs should be legal but even this argument I'm not sure is correct. Even if it has some truth it doesn't mean we shouldn't still argue for the legalization of ALL psychedelics.

You entire argument throughout this thread is incredibly rambling and even incoherent at times. You contradict your self and change your argument all the time.

This thread was started out as an attempt to demonize synthetic drugs and now your trying to argue about what is most likely to accepted by "normal" people. You truly seem to believe that all synthetic drugs should be illegal and that anyone who uses them are "vile".

Pick a fucking argument and stick with it and refrain from insulting those who don't agree with you. You really come off as a COMPLETE asshole. I think you should really work on that and I really hope you do, for your own sake. It's not the fact that people don't agree with you that is getting them riled up, it is your incredibly inflated ago and condescending and downright insulting tone. You seem to have a complete and utter lack of understanding of what makes a good human being.

If you could work on this even just a little bit it would be a huge improvement in the quality of your posts but something tells me your not capable of that.

That said, I am officially checking out of this thread. I hope it dies a swift death.

 

[Delta-9-THC]

Aaaaaaaand Teotzlcoatl goes on the ignore list.

Wow, that's a load off. So, anyone got a reason this thread should stay open?

Wow. The ignore button. I've never thought of using it before but I'm seriously tempted.

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

Y'all go over to the Wormwood society forum and talk to them.

They actually have something that was made legal, which only 20 years ago was completely illegal.

Talk to them, look at their stragerty and their attitude and maybe you will better understand my perspective.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't still argue for the legalization of ALL psychedelics.

And I just don't think people will go for it anytime in the next 50 years, sorry.

Maybe argue for that in 50 years but right NOW is the time to push for the legalization of plants!

Wow. The ignore button. I've never thought of using it before but I'm seriously tempted.

if you dont like my posts then dont read them, nobody is holding a gun to your head

That said, I am officially checking out of this thread.

ok see ya around.

 

[daysonatrain]

though i said i was done with this thread im lured back in as you never responded to my last comment...

"Look the plant-drugs I'm talking about... Ayahuasca, Peyote, etc. can't kill you NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO!" -teo

just one of your very misguided statements im going to point out here. Ayahuasca is a combination of two chemicals (NO MATTER WHAT PLANTS IT COMES FROM ITS THESE TWO CHEMICALS THAT COUNT), dmt and maios. Maios have a long list of contraindicators, which if combined in sufficient quantities can easily kill someone (ever heard of seratonin syndrome?). this is one of the reasons traditional cultures had long fasts (and restricted diets) before partaking in a ceremony.

whats your response to this?? just because its a plant with a long history of use doesnt mean is totally safe...

you, teo, are the hardest type to debate with because you passive aggressive (like certain others in the P and S forum... some may know who im talking about...) . im all for the idea that its ridiculous that any plant could be made illegal, but your argument is so convoluted as to make it uninteligable. you think plants should be legal but not legal to sell? so because you deem ayahuasca and peyote important and opium poppies not "important" should be regulated (but legal??).

i like 50 percent of your ideas but the other half are pure bullshit, which you dont even seem to have researched at all and you keep saying go to this forum, go to that forum.... cmon

i, no doubt, know you will pick this post apart as you have done with so many others, so.... i just wonder if you are taking anything from the many many people who have debated you convoluted theories

 

[FrenchMachine]

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

just one of your very misguided statements im going to point out here. Ayahuasca is a combination of two chemicals (NO MATTER WHAT PLANTS IT COMES FROM ITS THESE TWO CHEMICALS THAT COUNT), dmt and maios. Maios have a long list of contraindicators, which if combined in sufficient quantities can easily kill someone (ever heard of seratonin syndrome?). this is one of the reasons traditional cultures had long fasts (and restricted diets) before partaking in a ceremony.

Look at 69rons post on the nexus about the nature of the MAOI action of the compounds found in caapi. He'll argue that they are a certain type of MAOIs, something called RIMAs (I believe)

Just check it out

here is a link, but you may have to do some searching-

https://www.dmt-nexus.com/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=4669

Also... if it isn't caapi, psychotria/diplopterys then it isn't true Ayahuasca, and thats a fact.

And... there have never been any reported deaths surrounding traditional ayahuasca.

so because you deem ayahuasca and peyote important and opium poppies not "important" should be regulated

Huh? I said ALL PLANTS should be legal as living plants, seeds and unadulterated dried botanicals.

So that include opium poppy, peyote, ayahuasca, every naturally occurring plant!

 

[helium-4]

RIMA's are just reversable monoamine oxidase inhibitors of MAO-A, so they are still an MAOI. Tyramine can be ingested with less risk.

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

Thanks for clearing that up Cloudy!

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

I must say I am impressed that y'all actually let people voice their opinions here.

No matter how stupid you think they might be.

I truly apperciate that.

Some sites just ban me.

I got some good info, y'all just wait and see.

BTW, if I insulted anybody I apologize. That isn't in the spirit of good debate and I shouldn't have done that.

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

let me ask a question...

if i was going to start a church relating to psychoactives would it be in my best interest to start a church based on peyote or ayahuasca or one based on all drugs?

which one is more likely to work?

 

[FrenchMachine]

The Church Of Holy Crack Rock

 

[Visitor Q]

http://www.venganza.org/

 

[any major dude]

On Use of the Word Natural

let me ask a question...

if i was going to start a church relating to psychoactives would it be in my best interest to start a church based on peyote or ayahuasca or one based on all drugs?

which one is more likely to work?

I'm assuming you live in the U.S.? If so peyote is legal for native american tribes on their tribal land. If you could trace lineage back to a member of one of these tribes you might be able to have a go at the peyote thing. Also, you should look into starting a UDV or Santo Daime church. Though I imagine the latter two require some type of theology degree, seminary, training or somesuch... If you're looking to start a new religion, familiarize yourself with lengthy confusing tax forms, sneers & jeers, and probably DEA/SWAT raiding your place of residence & freezing your assets, or just having an old school Waco style barbecue. American society, at this juncture, is probably more averse to new or deviant (in that they deviate from the norm) religions than they are drugs they've never heard of. That would likely be a painful & counter-productive route. But if you must, sticking with an extant religion would be wisest, IMHO.

In as far as society being more accepting of plant based drugs... Its really a false dichotomy. Chemicals are chemicals regardless of their source.

Where do you draw the line? The most highly regarded research with "psychedelic" chemicals currently in the U.S. is MDMA for PTSD. Is MDMA synthetic? The doses they used in the experiments are produced in a lab, but its entirely possible it exists in peyote in very small amounts as a chemical intermediary.

Methamphetamine is regarded as horrible by most, but it exists in some species of acacia. 2c-e is "synthetic" but its structure was ultimately derived from mescaline, so being that it was inspired by nature, and created by a human (also natural) is it then natural?

Furthermore, many synthetic drugs (recreational and otherwise) are derived from natural sources. Morphine can be isolated from opium or produced synthetically, is the "natural" one better? The opioid receptors in the brain don't seem to care. Speaking of opioids, what about the various codone/morphone drugs, they are produced synthetically but derived ultimately from naturally existing chemicals, and are metabolites of natural chemicals in vivo IIRC... Quinine also comes from nature originally. Heroin & Cathinone also exist in nature, does this make them any better or worse?

Is the manifestation of human technology natural? It stems from the evolutionary processes that gave us the pre-frontal cortex, and there's nothing more natural than evolution. Would this not mean that anything that the human mind can conjure is in effect, Natural? If not, one could argue that a chimp using a stick to eat termites is in defiance of the natural order, and i doubt anyone here is prepared to make that argument.

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

If so peyote is legal for native american tribes on their tribal land. If you could trace lineage back to a member of one of these tribes you might be able to have a go at the peyote thing.

Um... no.

Have you never heard of Peyote Way?

ANYBODY white, black, blue or whatever can join peyote way and legally eat peyote.

Y'all need to keep up.

The doses they used in the experiments are produced in a lab, but its entirely possible it exists in peyote in very small amounts as a chemical intermediary.

MDMA is not in cacti, sorry. Perhaps some distantly related compounds...

Methamphetamine is regarded as horrible by most, but it exists in some species of acacia.

I know exactly what your talking about and no, that was proved to be a myth.

Look into it more and you'll see.

Is the manifestation of human technology natural?

No. It's easy to see the difference between a tree and a car.

Natural? If not, one could argue that a chimp using a stick to eat termites is in defiance of the natural order, and i doubt anyone here is prepared to make that argument.

The "natural order" and natural are two different things. Of course it's ok for chimps and humans to use tools, but that doesn't suddenly turn the tools into organic, natural things.

 

[Solipsis]

And they lived happily ever after...