Opioids OG Octagonal Opana ER - MEGA THREAD - can't find YOUR thread? check here.

[jamesBrown]

How about you both stop talking about it and post to other members to listen to none of it since apparently it cant be solved without "mommy moderator" stepping in.

 

[arthunter888]

Let me clear things up. People are easily confused when factoring absorption (BA) in to the equation when comparing analgesic strenths...

Some don't understand that the "potency" of a substance ASSUMES the IV route. Why? Because it is usually 100% for ALL drugs. Therefore, it is an unbiased and straight-forward starting point for comparing strengths. Therefore, molecule 1 (in the blood) is ___x stronger than molecule 2 (in the blood).
When one (or both) drugs is/are NOT taken via IV, then you need to factor in the BA to compare the relative overall effect---or EFFICACY--between the two...

OM = oxymorphone, M = morphine

15mg OM (nasal) x 43% (BA) = 6.45mg OM (in the blood).

And since my opiate calculator says [1mg OM (IV) = 10mg M (IV)], this is like saying a blood-molecule of OM is 10x the strength of a blood-molecule of M.

So----> 6.45mg OM x 10 = 64.5mg M (in the blood).

Since 6.45mg OM resulted from snorting 15mg OM, it is true that "15mg oxymorphone snorted is equal to 64.5mg morphine in your system" --- though the BA was a little different, muvolution's method was correct.

If you want to be meticulous in regard to extended-release pills, you'd factor in the gelling mechanisms of specific pills (how they affect absorption) as well as the time elapsed til peak blood concentration, but there is no accurate mathematical method so far for this to be reliable.

Now let's figure out the relative strengths with a more common ROA, oral morphine. the BA of oral morphine is about 25%. So 25% of 1/4 of 100%. Therefore, 1mg morphine (in the blood) results from 4mg morphine swallowed, so multiply by 4...

------> 64.5mg M x 4 = 258mg M ----> therefore 15mg nasal OM = 258mg oral Morphine, meaning nasal OM is 17.2x the efficacy of oral M.

***Keep in mind that the BA of an ROA ASSUMES a pure chemical. Pills are very diluted forms of an active chemical, because of all the filler. While the oral BA of an instant-release pill will be pretty close to the BA of the pure chemical, the nasal BA of the pill will be a little less the nasal BA of a pure chemical, because of how small the nasal passages are (e.g. dripping down throat). So 43% nasal BA of an Opana pill is generous, but when talking harm reduction it's best to assume the most.***

 

[muvolution]

God, thank you for clearing that up. I get 180 10IR's a month and I have done my research so I know what's up.

 

[muvolution]

How about you both stop talking about it and post to other members to listen to none of it since apparently it cant be solved without "mommy moderator" stepping in.

in the interest of harm reduction (and as a long-time user, short-time bluelighter) I really wanted to see this settled by someone such as yourself or a more experienced user or moderator.

 

[shadyMyster]

How many times do I have to repeat....IV/IM/SC concerning Oxymorphone is 10x the strength of morphine, via those same ROA's. Look at my previous posts and you will see that. The ROA of concern here is NEITHER of those. Insufflation does not equate to 10x the strength "in the blood". Otherwise, the conversion would be 10x for all doses, not .333, or 4.5-6 for Per Os. An oral dose hits the blood too, so when you have this ROA, insufflation, or a rectal administration, you're theory is that each molecule is 10x the strength of morphine? The problem with this, is that, taken orally, or insufflated, there is an onset where the organs (mucosa membranes and gastro) have to break down the drug. That enlies the sole reason IV is so powerful... it is injected directly into the bloodstream, with a seconds onset.

I repeat, where are you two getting this 10x number. On all of the conversion charts, you will see opana having a IV strength of 1mg to morphine's iv/im/sc strength of 10mg. This is not the case for Oral, or Insufflation, or rectal. I imagine the efficacy of rectal administration to be a bit higher than the previous two. *For harm reduction, yes having a higher number to gauge on is great, but it's the principle, Oxymorphone is 10x more potent in the blood, I agree with that statement....and have the entire conversation. What I do not agree with, is the claims that it is still 10x stronger, when taken by insufflation, and most certainly without a doubt, Per os. I stand by my calculations (assuming 43%-50% bioavailability increase via high lipid intake) that a 15mg dose will yield between 6.45-7.50 properly absorbed, (3-6) = 38.7, 45mg equivalent to morphine (x .25 if you want to get the absorption for m).

The only reason I am still not succombing to either of your calculations for the ROA of insufflation, is because it does have a BA and absorption rate that is analogous to IV/IM/SC. Therefore, if your claim that every molecule "in the blood" is 10x the strength of morphine, that may be true only for those ROAs. This is not possible with Per Os and Insufflation. These methods, once again, incur an onset, (minus all other mechanisms of impetence, such as gelling as previously noted, drip, and all of erroneous factors for all intents and purposes for this conversation). That makes the 10x claim relative only to IV/IM/SC, not the other ROAs.

 

[Golani]

Opanas make me sick as hell, and I don't know exactly why. I usually just crush them up and then snort 'em, with the outer layer of ER and everything. Perhaps this is why? But the fucking outer layer is so damn hard to get off!

Just snorted some roxies tho, and they never make me sick unless I eat too many

They used to make me sick too, until I started to peel the outer coating off with a razor blade.

Once you do it a few times you get really good at it and it can be done in less than a minute.

Make sure the razor blade is new and sharp. Makes peeling of the coating easier and more precise.

Then, with the shavings from the outer coating, I just pile them up and swallow them because they usually have a little bit of OM stuck to the inside of it anyhow.

 

[PainGame]

They used to make me sick too, until I started to peel the outer coating off with a razor blade.

Once you do it a few times you get really good at it and it can be done in less than a minute.

Make sure the razor blade is new and sharp. Makes peeling of the coating easier and more precise.

Then, with the shavings from the outer coating, I just pile them up and swallow them because they usually have a little bit of OM stuck to the inside of it anyhow.

First I want to thank Muv for the guide! That is very helpful information and will keep a lot of people safe!

And now a bit of a rant:

Has everyone just kind of spaced out and missed the FACT THAT THE SILICA IN THESE PILLS WILL DESTROY YOUR LUNGS??

I guess it is the nature of addicts versus patients.

Addicts will keep doing something even if they know that snorting around 200-300 OPANA ER in 1-2 years time period is virtually guaranteed to result in Silicosis about 10 years out.

Patients will read that and go, OH WOW, I don't really want to DIE.

If you must insuffalate use the method previously posted or go here for another method to get the silicate out:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?p=8735182&posted=1#post8735182

It is sad that people everywhere are at this point clueless about this and really there should be an effort to spread the information about what is in OPANA ER and why you should not snort it without a process to remove the silicates.

So many people that could have just been recreational users or recovered addicts are going to end up with their lives ruined by reduced lung capacity or death from Silicosis. In some ways it would be better if the disease stuck quickly as word would spread and people would stop or take the time to prepare the pills properly.

The fact that Silicosis appears at a minimum of 5-7 years after your first use means there are a lot of people walking around who are ticking time bombs, not knowing that their lungs will fail in the future.

If we here at Bluelight can get the word out somehow about silicified microcrystalline cellulose and why it is sinister shit, this site would TRUELY live up to its purpose of harm reduction.

Methadone clinics ought to start handing out flyers about this stuff, I am kind of baffled as to how to get the word out.... A lot of people are going to be hurt by it and it is sad. They are kids who deserve a second chance but won't get one because they are essentially putting ASBESTOS INTO PILLS.

ASBESTOS is a set of six naturally occurring silicate minerals exploited commercially for their desirable physical properties. They all have in common their asbestiform habit, long, (1:20) thin fibrous crystals. The inhalation of asbestos fibers can cause serious illnesses, including malignant lung cancer, mesothelioma (a formerly rare cancer strongly associated with exposure to asbestos and fiber glass.), and asbestosis (a type of Silicosis).

silicified microcrystalline cellulose is being put into OPANA ER and other pills coming soon to a theater near you. Awareness has got to be raised about this!

If you are or have been snorting a pill like OPANA that has this in it you might as well have spent the last 40 years working with ASBESTOS because that is exactly what is coming for you - except you will not have anyone to sue but yourself, as the drug companies will just say the pills are safe if you take them orally which is true!

Hopefully if enough people repeat this it will begin to spread on the nets and more will refrain from snorting pills without processing out the SILICA or making sure there is none in there to begin with.

I would ask a MODERATOR to please start a sticky with a growing master list of ALL PILLS CONATINING silicified microcrystalline cellulose so people can do a quick check to see if a pill is safe to snort or not.

Also the community can all contribute by researching the ingredients on their favorite pills to find pills that need to be added to the list.

Actually I would not be surprised if the new version of OXYCONTIN may also need to be added. It seems to be a popular ingredient in time release formulations, nut it is new and is going to end up in all kinds of pills.

 

[jamesBrown]

I think thats^^^^ a great idea.

I also think the drug company's should stop putting these deadly materials inside their medications in order to prevent people from using the meds the way they want to. All medications have to have come from some natural source at some point or another(even fully synthetic drugs are created by using natural substances) ...so why make it so hard to enjoy the benefits(and problems) of all that is natural and given to us by the earth?

 

[arthunter888]

How many times do I have to repeat...

The problem with this, is that, taken orally, or insufflated, there is an onset where the organs (mucosa membranes and gastro) have to break down the drug. That enlies the sole reason IV is so powerful... it is injected directly into the bloodstream, with a seconds onset...

That makes the 10x claim relative only to IV/IM/SC, not the other ROAs.

I can read your argument a little better now. This is still kind of tricky, but you bring up a valid point. To my understanding, you are emphasizing the effect that rate of onset has on the analgesic strength of a given dose of a given drug.

And it may be true that a #mg of a drug that enters the blood completely in under a minute (IV) would have a greater analgesic effect than the same #mg of a drug entering the blood gradually over the course of an hour (oral). This is probably because the in the former case more molecules are bound to the receptor as the same time, so the sum of the molecules' combined analgesic potential takes effect at once.

But, are the opiate calculators factoring this aspect into the result?

Let's test it out...

15mg OM (IV) x 100% (BA) = 15mg OM (in the blood).

15mg OM (IV) x 10 = 150mg M (in blood). ------> 150mg M (in blood) results from 600mg M swallowed (x4 because 25% BA). Therefore 15mg OM (IV) = 600mg M (oral), assuming that rate of onset does not effect blood-molecule strenght.

And the opiate calculator says 15mg OM (IV) = 450mg oral. That's a 25% difference from the method muv and I used, but note that the calc is giving oral Morphine a GREATER strength than our methods. If the onset rates were causing the difference (meaning if it was accounted for in the calc), then I would expect the morphine dose to be considered WEAKER (higher #) in the calc than in my method, since I wasn't factoring that oral morphine takes more time until peak blood concentrations than IV. This would be the case if the calc DID consider this. This is what produces some doubt for me that that is the only discrepancy.

And another thing, what about at the time the oral dose peaks. This means the entire dose is bound to your receptors. Would the onset rate still apply when the analgesia of when the [entire dose is receptor bound with oral] is compared to when the [entire dose is receptor-bound with IV.] The rabbit hole grows deeper.

But in the end, how are we to know for sure which variable is inconsistent between the calc and our own method. It would make sense based on the onset rate as explained above that this is the discrepancy, but---again---if this were so I would expect the morphine dose would need to be HIGHER rather than lower. What if the calculator is simply using different BAs and/or factoring other variables not mentioned? There are just way too many variables that contribute to the overall analgesic effect for all people, and that's BEFORE considering the drug-processing differences between INDIVIDUALS.

It would be interesting to see the logic behind the opiate calculator (how it is calculated). This is the only way to know for sure, but in the end your argument about onset rate is most likely true, I'm just not sure to what extent it applies.

Sorry for the length, but there's a very sophisticated amount of logic and brain power involved in thinking about all these variables.

 

[shadyMyster]

I can read your argument a little better now. This is still kind of tricky, but you bring up a valid point. To my understanding, you are emphasizing the effect that rate of onset has on the analgesic strength of a given dose of a given drug.

Exactly. It's all relative strengths. When you gander at an opiate calculation or conversion chart/solver you will see that only when compared vs each other do you get the correct calculation. Meaning, all of their strengths are relative to one another. They are gauged using a comparative scale.

So, what I was getting from your arguments, is that, insufflation of Oxymorphone is akin to Injecting Oxymorphone. This is not correct. Yes, the rate of onset and ROA come into play here, amongst other variables.

To wrap things up, Oxymorphone will only be 10x the strength of Morphine, when compared both to using IV/IM/SC. This is because of many factors, one being the quick onset, negating other variables such as gelling, lipid increase to capitalize on 50% ba, etc. etc. and so on.

Thus, as previously stated, a more accepted rate, (in my view and according to my research/calculations), oxymorphone via Insufflation is equivalent to 4.5x-6x the strength of Morphine, dependent on several variant factors, such as b.a., onset, negating factors such as gelling, physical blockages, absorption rates, and others.

 

[muvolution]

Thus, as previously stated, a more accepted rate, (in my view and according to my research/calculations), oxymorphone via Insufflation is equivalent to 4.5x-6x the strength of Morphine, dependent on several variant factors, such as b.a., onset, negating factors such as gelling, physical blockages, absorption rates, and others.

we are saying the same thing. 1mg x 10 (relative potency) x .5 (50% BA) = 5mg, which falls right in the middle of your 4.5 -6 #.
That was the long way to get there, but we are saying the same thing.

 

[shadyMyster]

Only in IV/IM is it 10-1 ratio, as I previously have stated. It is more around 4.5-6x the potency of Morphine for insufflation.

I have said that from the very beginning. You on the other hand,

He insuffulated the 15mg of Oxymorphone.
Oxymorphone is 10 times stronger than morphine.
15x10= 150 x .43 = 64.5 equivalent analgesic dose of Morphine.

No, you stand incorrect. This is what started this quarrel. ^

I have said that from the very beginning it was 4.5-6x. Clearly, you were saying Oxymorphone insufflated is 10x stronger than morphine. Which it is not. It is only about 4.5-6x. Also known as, you were comparing IV/IM/SC oxymorphone to IV Morphine, and specifically applying that ratio to the ROA of insufflation. So, your numbers were off, and so was the claim that via ROA Insufflation is 10x stronger than Morphine, which is also incorrect.

End.

 

[arthunter888]

^^ He wasn't saying that oxymorphone insufflated was 10x stronger than morphine. He was simply saying that a mg of OM that makes it into the blood is 10x as potent as a mg of M that makes it into the blood, regardless of ROA. Therefore, he used this to begin the calculation, and then he factored in BA to get the efficacy, which even he knew was not 10x when the calculation was done.

This is what I thought initially also. But then I eventually figured that the rate of onset would effect the efficacy somewhat. But this case is far from closed, because we still do not know the exact extent to which the rate of onset affects efficacy, and then you'd have to account for duration, because this will distort understanding of efficacy as well. But you can still use these type of calculations to get a "ball park" estimation.

 

[Golani]

!

First I want to thank Muv for the guide! That is very helpful information and will keep a lot of people safe!

And now a bit of a rant:

Has everyone just kind of spaced out and missed the FACT THAT THE SILICA IN THESE PILLS WILL DESTROY YOUR LUNGS??

Damn, I didnt know that at all!
Im kinda new to Opana ER and only use them when I dont have any Oxycodone around.

Its amazing how almost all of the "anti abuse" ingredients in these pills usually are just as unhealthy if not more then the previous ingredients and chemistry.

Anyhow, I find Opana ER a REALLY boring drug. And I get them for only $4 a peice.

 

[arthunter888]

The only way to get a PRACTICAL conversion of efficacy, is simply to use SUBJECTIVE trial and error. This means, you get a milligram scale, and measure out a particular mass of an Opana pill. You insufflate it as efficiently as possible. You increase your dose every so slightly (by 5mg of pill powder or so)--seperated by 7 days to eliminate tolerance-- until you find a dose that made you as high as you could get before a further increase would make you sick.
Then, you do the same thing with oral Morphine. Keep increasing until you find your maximum tolerable dose, and then you compare the maximum dose for each. To make things consistent, you would need to be using Opana IR, and morphine IR to avoid different rates of release factoring in and confusing things.

I did something similar, after many weeks using both (tolerance reset between doses). I found that my maximum tolerable dose of 40mg-Opana ER was 30mg of powder. This equals 5.45mg of oxymorphone (since a 40 is 220mg without coating). I did this also with oxycodone IR. My max dose was a whole 15mg pill plugged. Both cases were 45 minutes after a similar fatty meal.

So this means nasal Opana ER is roughly 3x the efficacy of rectal Oxy IR, for me at least. But since is was Opana EXTENDED RELEASE, the molecules' progress in binding to the receptors is "stretched out" compared to Oxy IR; Hence I would assume Opana IR would be closer to 5-6x the efficacy.

IMO, this is the best way of getting practical equivalencies. Although there will be some biases (e.g. individual perception of euphoria/extent of intoxication), you are gauging the END result of the effect of a drug (therefore all the debatable factors like rate of onset and gelling are already accounted for). I'd bet if more people could and would experiment this way, we'd have a pool of data from which to get averaged equivalencies.

 

[homeydontplaythat]

this fentanyl and good powder heroin are the only opiates i would consider now that im on suboxone. i mean if i were to use anything to try to get high, this shit would be my choice. in a 40mg pill if you IV it is so much stronger than getting even a half gram of good heroin.

 

[shadyMyster]

we are saying the same thing. 1mg x 10 (relative potency) x .5 (50% BA) = 5mg, which falls right in the middle of your 4.5 -6 #.
That was the long way to get there, but we are saying the same thing.

No, we are not. Not at all. Only for IV/IM/SC are we in agreement.

It seems both of you believe that Oxymorphone via insufflation equates to 10x the potency of Morphine. This is not subjective, because regardless of "in the blood" or where this drug is absorbed and broken down (gastro, muscousa), it will not be 10x the strength of Morphine, unless directed by the previously noted iv/im/sc.

4.5x-6x is for insufflation. Just like oxymorphone is ingested orally, which is a lower rate of about 4 or .333x.

Muv's calculation above my response is 1mg OM x 10 (strength vs morphine) / 5 = 5mg. This would be the case, again only for iv/im/sc as I have now stated about TEN TIMES now, which is not to be confused with insufflation, which would turn the 5mg into 2.25 and 3 repsectively, using 4.5x and 6x. Why is that so hard to understand, I'm bewildered. Are you in disagreement with other calculations such as for oxycodone and methadone? Hydrocodone and levorphanol? Fentanyl and Demerol?

The fact is, when a drug is administered via IV/IM/SC, compared to taken orally, rectally, sublingually, insufflated, etc., they will have different strengths and doses. Why is that so hard to grasp? Just because 1mg oxymorphone injected = 10mg morphine injected, does not mean by any stretch, that the numbers are the same for insufflation or oral etc.

 

[Khadijah]

I aint read this whole thread front to back, but i aint seen a whole lot of talk about opana vs methadone tolerance wise.

I been on about 100mg a day for a year now and it always been mad hard for me to feel anythin from opana. Anytime I done it, its been at least 40 sniffed all at one time. (Ive fucked with 40, 60, and 80mg doses, but aint been able to afford goin higher. shits expensive, and if it was mad effective it would be worth it but it sux to pay alot for somethin thats only keepin you at baseline.) Anyways, Once I sniffed 80 (40+20+20) over about a half hour and i felt somethin close to a high comin on, but that was the closest ive ever got.

It seems like for me at least, methadone makes your tolerance so high to other opioids , and I mean even when you off the done (24-36 hours after the last dose, when WD signs are starting to show) even doin the opana aint quite kept me on the level.

Im just curious how any longtime daily methadone users feel about opana and how strong u find it to be. I see posts by people who take 250 mg of oxy a day and say they get high off sniffing 20mg opana and it seems crazy to me. I cant imagine gettin anything close to the highs some of yall describin without havin 2-3 40's at least.

We all know that at doses around 50mg or more methadone has a blockin type effect on gettin high off other opiates, but like i said, Im talkin about bein off the shit long enough to feel WDs comin on. by that time, your tolerance will still be up , but the actual blockin effect wouldnt be effective.

It seems like ever since I got on done, the only drug that is ever worth doin if i want somethin recreational is dope. I tried oxy many times, 200+mg , and felt basically nothing....and the opana experiments i done from time to time also ended up less than amazing. It got me thru and i knew i was on a opiate since I didnt feel sick and generally felt "pleasant" but its like I could never break thru and actually feel a HIGH, with anything except heroin.

i aint usin drugs now, since I am pregnant 5 months and obviously gettin high is outta the question. Just readin thru this thread brough up alot of memories for me and it made me wonder if anybody else on done experienced the same shit. Opana seems to be the "heavyweight champ" but 80mg gave me an effect just about the same as when i take a little extra done on top of my regular dose. nothin to write home about, for sure. Wat yall think?

 

[Healgasm]

I just started doing Opana this month and this thread has officially freaked me out with the silicosis. Guess this will be my last weekend of fun with them.

 

[curlygurl1980]

i tired one awhille back and i have a very high opiate tolerance i got a forty snorted half and it rocked my freaking world!! i honestly never thought i could ever get that high anymore off of any kind of opiate especially that little bit!! it was fantastic u definitley definitley want to try it!!! i hadnt nodded out in like eight years and nodded for like 4 hours straight seriously!!!! loved it but the down side is opiates ruined my life so Im on suboxone now and i shouldnt actualy encourage anyone to do pills but that particular pill did rock my world so if u r going to get high anywayz that is definitly the one to try