nothing to urgent but (lsa containing seeds)

[fizzacyst]

I have seen nothing but anecdotal evidence that the outside of the seeds is a problem. Ive never scraped it off. I used to chew them up and swallow. I think they taste like slightly bitter pine nuts. never has any nausea problems.

 

[FLawles]

LSA & Vomiting

I've searched thru the forums and havent found legit ways of preventing vomit on LSA.

I tried taking on a full stomach, and being hydrated, me and my friend both vomited. (HBWR Hawaiian strain)

So... which vomit prevention method works best for you guys??

 

[miasma]

I don't like the idea of trying to prevent vomitting. If your body's telling you it doesn't want something inside it, just let it go. I always feel good after a spew

 

[IGNVS]

i can never hold down lsa's long enough to get a good trip off em

 

[FLawles]

Yeah that's true miasma, but how long is a good time to hold off the vomit til all the LSA is absorbed?

 

[Mr. White]

sublingual absorbtion, water extraction both tend to have MUCH less nausea.

 

[[email protected]]

Scrape the fuzzy stuff off and give the brown layer a good scrape with a sharp knife until they are mostly yellow (usually takes me a few minutes per seed), flame them with a lighter (not too long, around 5 or so seconds each (the heat damages the lsa inside the seeds but also kills the stuff that causes nausia), crush them, put them in some orange juice in the fridge for a good few hours (even over night), then drink the juice without the pulp, that usually gets rid of most of the nausea + vomiting because its caused by the shells/fuzzy stuff on the outside. Also empty stomach is best to avoid nausea and for maximum effects.

2nd important thing is having bud available, if I do get nausea from that method somking some bud ALWAYS fixes it. I never take seeds without it now. good luck!

 

[*Love*Lite*]

I don't like the idea of trying to prevent vomitting. If your body's telling you it doesn't want something inside it, just let it go. I always feel good after a spew

I have to agree with you here. I dont think that large quantities of crushed up seeds are really meant to remain in your stomach... vomiting on LSA for me was one of the most horrific experiences of my life. You know the scene from the exorcist where she is projectile vomiting... yea, it was something like that. NO way would I have been able to hold that down.

-BUT-

I did get a nice trip out of it... so it wasn't all bad.

 

[Newmoonrecord]

I don't like the idea of trying to prevent vomitting. If your body's telling you it doesn't want something inside it, just let it go. I always feel good after a spew

that said, the key reason for nausea and vomiting on psychedelics is a simple chemical reaction of having a molecule that looks like serotonin binding to your serotonin (3c) receptors in your stomach and brain that are literally nausea receptors. psychedelics are not physical poisons, they are literally just binding to the receptors that make your body think it is being poisoned.

however. in the case of LSA, there may be poisons in the seeds that you want to puke up.. such as arsenic or whatnot.. right???

I would recommend using ondansetron.. or any of the "tron" anti-nausea drugs, as they directly counteract nausea caused by serotonergic psychedelics. they are serotonin antagonists at the specific 3-c receptor (the nausea receptor). they do not affect the trip whatsoever, but they prevent the drug from binding to the nausea receptors.

 

[joeyjoejoeshabadoo]

LSA and nausea: how to attenuate cyanogenic glycosides

Knowledge for progress.

Seeds contain high amounts of cyanogenic glycosides.
Cyanide poisoning is commonly treated with hydroxycobalamin, where the hydroxy group is cleaved and the cobalamin is bonded with the cyanide to form cyanocobalamin, a form of vit b12.
Apparently methylcobalamin and other forms are not reactive so one would have to find a source of hydroxycobalamin.

Another process the body clears and detoxifies from cyanide is by the use of sulfur:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ur+cyanid+metabolism&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Detoxification (metabolism) of cyanide is accomplished by the administration of a sulfur-containing compound that combines with cyanide to produce thiocyanate, a relatively non-toxic substance which is rapidly excreted via the kidneys. The hepatic enzyme rhodanese catalyzes the one-way reaction of cyanide and a sulfane to thiocyanate. Sodium thiosulfate is packaged in a 50-mL ampule containing 12.5 grams of the drug. Intravenous injection of all 12.5 grams follows successful completion of the intravenous injection of sodium nitrite. Half of the original dosage of each drug may be repeated if symptoms persist.

^^^ pretty much the theory here is that intake of sulfur containing foods such as garlic, supplements such as MSM, methionine, cysteine, can be effective at keeping your bodys own sulfur sink at high reserved levels to eliminate cyanide.

another example:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/kpg4154kpj35112q/

where the rats resistance to cyanide poisoning was dose dependant on consuming garlic.

SWIM has taken a few joint supplement pills containing several sulfate compounds and followed an hour later by a nugget of fresh garlic.
2 hours later a water extract of 10-15 hbwr was ingested.
Nausea was neglegible if not totally absent... for the first time ever compared to SWIM previous journeys with hbwr and MG's.
The experiments employed were carried out the same way:
1. using simple water extract and filtering (no sulfur)
2. using simple water extract in addition to sulfur supps and garlic ingested separately before the liquid extract.
Several occassions, several weeks in between, for both experiments using the same seeds from the same bags for accurate comparisons.

Using the simple water extraction, SWIM has always puked (maybe once or twice made it through without) but has always suffered the nausea.

But, so far the msm pills and nug of garlic have been most helpful, with no puke and very slight if not absent nausea.

A quick search online has shown suppliers of rhodanese human enzymes. Rhodanese works in a one step direct process which in the presence of sulfur and cyanide forms thiocyanate.

The sulfur method has eliminated vomiting and totally saved from horrid nausea, HOWEVER, further experimenting way show the addition of rhodanese to the water extract before consumption to be even more efficient; converting to thiocyanate before drinking opposed to consuming extract and waiting for the body to convert.

 

[Solipsis]

I read that roasting apricot pits should destroy the cyanoglycosides on them, wouldn't the same work for LSA-containing seeds?
If LSA's are heat sensitive though it may not be an effective solution. (oops they are so never mind)

Your sulphur method sounds okay but honestly it surprised me a little that it worked. I would like a number of experiments with it to eliminate chance or other factors.
The enzyme sounds tricky, but it could work if you copy physiological conditions. Have you searched for the activity of rhodanase, if it needs co-enzymes or any other substrates - or is it just a sulphuric host that makes it work?

Welcome by the way and thanks for thinking this up and discussing it together.
But lose the SWIM, it serves no purpose - everyone knows it's the same as "I" so bluelight omits it.

Also, this may be ADD material so don't be suprised if it is moved there.

 

[TheAzo]

LSA would be shredded by the heat before the cyanogenic glycosides. Lysergamides are notoriously vulnerable to degradation,.

 

[joeyjoejoeshabadoo]

thanks solipsis. ive been visiting these sights via google and see SWIM used a lot. i actually joined my first one here just in order to spread the word about the sulfur method.

the rhodanese enzyme is a one/two step process, depending how you look at it. But it is also simple and direct body process of elimination. It directly catalyzes sulfur + cyanide to form thiocyanate.

1. In the body rhodanese cleaves the sulfur group from cysteine to form thiocyanate. (2 step)
2. The theory is that if all rhodanese needs is the presence of sulfur and cyanide, then the cleaving of sulfur from a sulfur containing group ie cysteine, could be skipped. Although the addition of a sulfonyl group to the lsa water would still have to undergo the cleaving of the sulfur from the thiosulfates.
This would allow the catalyst to do its job before consumption.

 

[Solipsis]

About #2: whose theory is that?
Enzymes can work in steps that work extremely fast and always subsequently as one mechanism. If you are talking about a bond formation yielding thiocyanate (-S-C≡N ), the sulfur we are talking about has to lose 1 bond for that or in extreme circumstances gain one for the octet right?
Substitution for an inorganic sulfur group may be possible, as long as the electronic balance is preserved.
Why not, if cysteine is such an established sulfur source, use cysteine itself? It may be taken as is, or as N-acetyl-cysteine (better known to me, possibly better bioavailability but irrelevant to an in vitro reaction). Thinking about it though I am not sure it is all too water soluble.

 

[joeyjoejoeshabadoo]

About #2: whose theory is that?
Enzymes can work in steps that work extremely fast and always subsequently as one mechanism. If you are talking about a bond formation yielding thiocyanate (-S-C≡N ), the sulfur we are talking about has to lose 1 bond for that or in extreme circumstances gain one for the octet right?
Substitution for an inorganic sulfur group may be possible, as long as the electronic balance is preserved.
Why not, if cysteine is such an established sulfur source, use cysteine itself? It may be taken as is, or as N-acetyl-cysteine (better known to me, possibly better bioavailability but irrelevant to an in vitro reaction). Thinking about it though I am not sure it is all too water soluble.

Yes it is a direct process without any intermediates involved. As i said my experience has consisted of garlic and sulfur supps prior to consuming lsa, but the theory is the conversion to thiocyanate before ingestion to prevent the possibility of ANY sort of discomfort.

I chose garlic bc it is high in thiosulfates. consequently it is a great antibacterial and may help with blood pressure and thrombosis that can be caused by the vasoconstrictive effects of lsa.
But mostly bc it is high in numerous sulfates and bc its easily found in the fridge.

Also the research done on the ability of rats to detox cyanide was done using garlic.

No i dont believe amino acids are water soluble.

Bc sulfur is not water soluble, I wonder if a naptha wash after the thiocyanate conversion would give an even cleaner result?

More research will be done tonight:

1) 15 organic ghana hbwr will be powderized using scissors.
2) Powder will be soaked in non-tap water for about 5 hours along with 500mg of organic vit c powder.
3) At the 4.5 hr mark, a nug of garlic will chopped and diced and added to the extracting hbwr water.
4)This will be let to extract another 30min
5)At the 5 hour mark, resulting extract will be filtered out mixed with fresh juice from squeezed home grown oranges.
* * * * * * *
The next journey will be identical, except instead of mixing the extract with orange it will be mixed with different species of psychedilic mentha brewed tea(cooled of course)

 

[joeyjoejoeshabadoo]

results

More research will be done tonight:

1) 15 organic ghana hbwr will be powderized using scissors.
2) Powder will be soaked in non-tap water for about 5 hours along with 500mg of organic vit c powder.
3) At the 4.5 hr mark, a nug of garlic will chopped and diced and added to the extracting hbwr water.
4)This will be let to extract another 30min
5)At the 5 hour mark, resulting extract will be filtered out mixed with fresh juice from squeezed home grown oranges.

RECAP and slight modification

1)Lsa from hbwr was CWE'd along with 500mg vitamin c (was extracted for 5 hours instead of 4.5 and 20 seeds were used instead of 15)
2)After 5 hours a nug of garlic was sliced, diced, and chopsueyed to smitherines and added to the CWE.
3)This was shaken periodically thru/ the next 30 min.
4)Bc the only thing at disposal was tangerines, four or five of those sweet little bastards were pulperized in a cup.
5)CWE was strained into a cup using a tea strainer.(some ask, why not use a paper filter? Others say, whadya think, lsa grows on trees??)
6)The pulperized tangerine juice was strained through the tea strainer into the cup of CWE.
7)Contents were properly disposed of.

Results

Wow. All i have to say about the taste was that it was really, really, and i mean really... quite surprising.
Now im gangsta when it comes to these things and if tastes horribly pukifying then so be it.
But it must have been the combination of flavors from the tangerine juice, hbwr and garlic bc it had a totally new flavor.
Imagine fresh cucumber juice with a hint of watered down tomato juice.
The tangerine flavor was absolutely undetectable.
And the garlic gave a nice soft hint of gardeny touch.
Now hbwr and MG CWE have always gave me nausea the second i take in a mouthful.
Even with using lemonade or other mixes, it seemed the seed-yucky flavor always poked through.
So it's quite possible the garlic took away or masked the flavor.
The drink was finished in 3 extremely pleasant gulps.
And now it has been almost 3.5 hours.
There has been no vomiting.
There has not been any nausea whatsoever.

In conclusion, my findings are that:

1) Cyanogenic glycosides are responsible for the nausea caused by lsa extraction
a)on a related note, perhaps those who are immune to the nausea of lsa
yet still trip, are ones whose dietary intake consists of high sulfur foods.
2) Garlic eaten before consuming CWE prevents vomiting, YET may still cause an extremely mild and fading nausea, almost unnoticable.
3) Garlic diced and ADDED into the CWE for at least 30 min disables all cyanogenic glycosides and eliminates and prevents nausea completely.

Thank you all who have took the time to read this.
Please post your results if you decide to try this method.
Soak your seeds longer though, i was strapped for time so i managed 5 hours.
Personally when time is not an issue i CWE for 8hr+

 

[adrian89987]

No i dont believe amino acids are water soluble.

Bc sulfur is not water soluble, I wonder if a naptha wash after the thiocyanate conversion would give an even cleaner result?

Amino acids can definitely be water soluble (have both an acidic and a basic group) as long as its at the correct pH. Though there will always be more difficulty solubilizing the hydrophobic ones of course.

1. In the body rhodanese cleaves the sulfur group from cysteine to form thiocyanate. (2 step)
2. The theory is that if all rhodanese needs is the presence of sulfur and cyanide, then the cleaving of sulfur from a sulfur containing group ie cysteine, could be skipped. Although the addition of a sulfonyl group to the lsa water would still have to undergo the cleaving of the sulfur from the thiosulfates.
This would allow the catalyst to do its job before consumption.

Enzymes tend to be very specific in their reaction pathways. The sulfur from cysteine is not actually removed, it is the sulfur from thiosulfate that is cleaved from the disulfide that forms momentarily during the enzyme catalysed reaction. The catalyst (the enzyme) is regenerated in the normal enzyme conditions so it's not really consumed (though enzymes of course only have a certain lifetime but this isn't to do with a cysteine losing its sulfur).

I chose garlic bc it is high in thiosulfates. consequently it is a great antibacterial and may help with blood pressure and thrombosis that can be caused by the vasoconstrictive effects of lsa.
But mostly bc it is high in numerous sulfates and bc its easily found in the fridge

I like this idea, but are the cyano glycocides cleaved within the body away from their backbone structure? It looks like with the rhodanese enzyme that the carbon on the cyanide ion is attacking the disulfide bridge of the enzyme intermediate. So if all the cyano groups are still a part of the glycoside in solution then it won't be able to combine with the disulfide bridge on cys-247 until they are free from the rest of the glycoside.



These are some cool ideas, might give em a try some time.

 

[joeyjoejoeshabadoo]

Enzymes tend to be very specific in their reaction pathways. The sulfur from cysteine is not actually removed, it is the sulfur from thiosulfate that is cleaved from the disulfide that forms momentarily during the enzyme catalysed reaction. The catalyst (the enzyme) is regenerated in the normal enzyme conditions so it's not really consumed (though enzymes of course only have a certain lifetime but this isn't to do with a cysteine losing its sulfur).



I like this idea, but are the cyano glycocides cleaved within the body away from their backbone structure? It looks like with the rhodanese enzyme that the carbon on the cyanide ion is attacking the disulfide bridge of the enzyme intermediate. So if all the cyano groups are still a part of the glycoside in solution then it won't be able to combine with the disulfide bridge on cys-247 until they are free from the rest of the glycoside.



These are some cool ideas, might give em a try some time.

CG's bond is readily broken in water becoming an even more toxic form called hydrogen cyanide.
As the amount of extract increases, so does the amount of HCN.
I believe HCN to be the limiting factor on lsa tolerable intake, not the dose of lsa itself.
As CG bonds split in water and HCN is formed, this now leaves the cyanide susceptable the formation of thiocyanate once any sulfur compounds are introduced.
I believe this is why eating garlic an hour before drinking CWE still gave an extremely negligible amount of nausea.
I believe from the experiment done last night, that mixing in the garlic during the CWE had a significant impact on nausea. Bc HCN is formed during CWE, it is can be catalysed to TCN prior to ingesting.

As i have said i have tested this all out

CWE= every trip chance of: vomiting 50%, nausea 100%

CWE + Garlic 1hr prior= every trip chance of: vomiting 0%, nausea 50%(and very very minor)

CWE + Garlic added = every trip chance of: vomiting 0%, nausea 0%

The next experiment will be done using the same method of CWE(g). 30 seeds of hbwr will be used.
This experiment will focus on the tolerable upper limit of lsa in correlation to the absence of CG's.
My hypothesis is the addition of sulfur compounds to form nontoxic TCN from highly toxic HCN, will increase the threshhold of lsa.

This last trip was mega awesome. I waited and waited even for the slightest sign of nausea... nothing came
Yes the garlic method will be forever employed.

 

[adrian89987]

Cool stuff. So the idea is that the bodily rhodanese enzyme is reacting with the thiosulfate in the CWE which is taking care of all hydrogen cyanide the ultimate cause of bodily discomfort.

I have a small stock of seeds I will probably try this with sometime.

 

[joeyjoejoeshabadoo]

Cool stuff. So the idea is that the bodily rhodanese enzyme is reacting with the thiocyanate in the CWE which is taking care of all hydrogen cyanide the ultimate cause of bodily discomfort.

I have a small stock of seeds I will probably try this with sometime.

Well my hypothesis was that the enzymatic reaction was taking place exogenously, inside the CWE somehow bc:

1)drinking simple CWE usually puke, always nauseas, cramps

2)eating garlic nug 1hr prior to drinking CWE(garlic free) prevented puke, very very short lasting slight discomfort.

3)mixing in grinded fresh garlic nug into CWE, prevented puke, prevented nausea.

^^^the difference between 1 and 2 being that 2 introduced garlic.
^^^the difference between 2 and 3 being that 3 (?)allowed thiosulfates to interact with the hydrogen bonded cyanide(?)

SO, this would imply, by theory that some sort of enzymatic conversion is going on in vitro.
SO, do plants contain rhodanese?


Do any plant species contain rhodanese?

http://www.springerlink.com/content/62vj86g8p51467m8/

^^^Answer: plants that contain cyanogenic toxins(as well as some that dont) also contain the rhodanese enzyme(almost rhetorical in a sense, huh?).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/UniGene/seq.cgi?ORG=Hs&SID=4546049

^^^a bunch of plants containing rhodanese domain gene

Maybe do a couple of CWEs using organic plant extracts from ^^^ that link. I think wine grapes is listed there, which is quite funny bc the next experiment was already going to be done using pure grape juice.
Oh ok i got it, glutathione is the sulfur compound in grape juice.

*cant use grape wine bc i have problems detoxing ethanol by alcohol dehydrogenase. Thumbs up if youd rather be allergic to bees.